Star Wars Thread

Topic

As part of the testing process I thought I’d kick off the traditional Star Wars thread.

The Obi-Wan Kenobi series with Ewan McGregor has been confirmed for Disney+ to begin shooting next year.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/23/20830478/obi-wan-kenobi-standalone-spinoff-series-disney-plus-series-ewan-mcgregor-streaming-star-wars

There’s also been new footage previewed from Rise Of Skywalker, although it’s not online

https://io9.gizmodo.com/new-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-footage-featured-r-1837449069

Sounds like it could be interesting.

Replies

SW isn’t dead, I would run to the cinema for a cool new SW movie. I think they should just do a bunch of stand alone movies with awesome, inspiring characters. Some new shit, new characters. A badass rebellious Jedi who doesn’t whine about sand. A group of Force users that doesn’t fall into the Jedi-Sith dichotomy. A movie with the Thor: Ragranok guy will be pretty good.

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garjones

Anonymous wrote:

A movie with the Thor: Ragranok guy will be pretty good.

Jeff Goldblum’s probably too old to be the lead but he’d be fun in one, yeah.

5 users thanked author for this post.

Andy, Todd, Dave

“With” is not correct, I meant “directed by”…

 

edit: Not directed by Jeff Goldblum, the other one

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Todd

Who do we petition to get this Jeff Goldblum-directed, Jeff Goldblum-starring Star Wars movie?

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Christian

Anonymous wrote:

“With” is not correct, I meant “directed by”…

 

edit: Not directed by Jeff Goldblum, the other one

Anthony Hopkins hasn’t directed a movie since 1990, and that was an adaptation of a play.  Might not be the best fit for a Marvel movie.  But then again, Kenneth Branagh…

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Todd, Dave

OK then Jeff Goldblum can direct it. And Taika Whaititi can play a wookie Jedi. With Jeff Goldblum as his sidekick.

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DavidM, Todd

I would love a Triple-Zero and BT standalone movie.

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Dave

A Dr Aphra audiobook is out 21 July.  Might be the nearest you get.

Ben wrote:

A Dr Aphra audiobook is out 21 July. Might be the nearest you get.

Yeah, it seems like it’s an expanded version of her arc from the Gillen Darth Vader series. I guess it makes sense that they don’t want to jump ahead of the comics, which haven’t left many gaps for other stories.

paul f wrote:

Ben wrote:

A Dr Aphra audiobook is out 21 July. Might be the nearest you get.

Yeah, it seems like it’s an expanded version of her arc from the Gillen Darth Vader series. I guess it makes sense that they don’t want to jump ahead of the comics, which haven’t left many gaps for other stories.

That’s exactly what it is, but after the sterling job they did on Dooku: Jedi Lost, I’ve a lot of confidence in this.

JRCarter wrote:

Star Wars: Why Darth Vader Fan Designs Are Always Cooler Than the Original

Just a few of the fan designs:

http://fav.me/ddx1rat

Seriously, who looks at Darth Vader and thinks, “Needs more abs”?

 

 

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Uncle Retrospective, JRCarter, Todd

I gave up on Star Wars long ago…

The Jedi Order is a failed institution.

The Force is flawed as both Jedi and Sith draw from it,
yet the Sith for some reason is so powerful as to
command lightning from the hands and can handle the
sabre so well as to kill 3-4 Jedi in a fight!

Al-x wrote:

The Jedi Order is a failed institution.

Yeah, that’s what makes the story interesting though. It wouldn’t be very exciting if the Jedi order was just an awesome club of flawless powerful Jedi who always win. Obi-Wan in ANH was like a sad wandering knight who escaped the fall of the ancient Kingdom and is inspiring others with stories of its Golden Age. So the Jedi were bound to screw up somehow, otherwise the Kingdom wouldn’t have fallen.

 

I think the whole force/Jedi thing is what makes SW good. Without it it would be pretty average. With the Force supposedly having something to do with Zen Buddhism, maybe it would be interesting to have a current day Zen Buddhist teacher suggest ideas for a new movie.

There’s a good chance that movie would just be about Yoda on Dagobah meditating and chuckling to himself.

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Anonymous wrote:

Obi-Wan in ANH was like a sad wandering knight who escaped the fall of the ancient Kingdom and is inspiring others with stories of its Golden Age. So the Jedi were bound to screw up somehow, otherwise the Kingdom wouldn’t have fallen.

It’s just unfortunate that the prequels made the protectors of the Golden Age looks like a bunch of comlete dickwads.

In order for there to be a convincing Golden Age, we would’ve needed to see at least some of the glory of those inspiring stories. Not just idiots flailing about.

I do hope that they fill this void when going back to the High Republic and whatnot.

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Todd

The prequels are a lot of things, but they’re not a story of a ‘golden age’.  High Republic has been marketed as it.

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Todd

Christian wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Obi-Wan in ANH was like a sad wandering knight who escaped the fall of the ancient Kingdom and is inspiring others with stories of its Golden Age. So the Jedi were bound to screw up somehow, otherwise the Kingdom wouldn’t have fallen.

It’s just unfortunate that the prequels made the protectors of the Golden Age looks like a bunch of comlete dickwads.

In order for there to be a convincing Golden Age, we would’ve needed to see at least some of the glory of those inspiring stories. Not just idiots flailing about.

I do hope that they fill this void when going back to the High Republic and whatnot.

Agreed, the prequels screwed that up. However I think you have to show the Jedi order as a failed institution, as Al-X said. There is no way around that.

 

I think the skeleton of a good story is there, in the prequels. It’s just how they filled it in where everything went wrong. Someone should have read the script George Lucas wrote and told him, “Nuh-uh we’re not going to do that. That sucks.” At the point in AOTC where it says “Yoda jumps around like a chinchilla on acid” they should have just taken his pen away.

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Todd

Oh boy, Yoda going full Jackie Chan will never be not stupid… u_u

I think the big mistake is trying to insert political intrigue into what was essentially a story about kids with laser swords and space cars fighting interstellar nazis with a side order of voodoo.

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Todd, Al-x, njerry

Ben wrote:

The prequels are a lot of things, but they’re not a story of a ‘golden age’.  High Republic has been marketed as it.

Yeah, exactly. But the prequels should have been that already. Like they should have been a lot of things. Primarily movies that you can watch without fighting the impulse to ram knitting needles into your fucking eyes.

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I thought it was weird how Obi-Wan and Anakin have the long Jedi cloak in Revenge of the Sith when they go to battle Grievous on that ship. Also, in some scenes the cloak is suddenly gone.

 

I thought it would have been cool if the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith, when they are at war, instead of their stinky old cloak would have worn some special tactical military Jedi outfit. I mean it must suck to have to go into action dressed like this:

 

Anonymous wrote:

I thought it was weird how Obi-Wan and Anakin have the long Jedi cloak in Revenge of the Sith when they go to battle Grievous on that ship. Also, in some scenes the cloak is suddenly gone.

 

I thought it would have been cool if the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith, when they are at war, instead of their stinky old cloak would have worn some special tactical military Jedi outfit. I mean it must suck to have to go into action dressed like this:

 

Anakin hates sand, not cloth.

Btw, if you like the fight pictured in your post, check out the novelization of RotS, that fight is insane there!

Anonymous wrote:

I think the big mistake is trying to insert political intrigue into what was essentially a story about kids with laser swords and space cars fighting interstellar nazis with a side order of voodoo.

I disagree, kids get politics just fine – they know there’s the playground bully, who gets away tons of crap, until a kid goes Dark Side Anakin on ’em and pounds them into the ground.  We don’t like to think kids are able to see failure or hypocrisy, but I’m pretty certain the parents here know they go straight for that.

Christian wrote:

But the prequels should have been that already.

You’d have to change things a lot to make it work as a Golden Ahe, like having an effective republic instead of the dysfunctional mess that the ST failed to understand wasn’t representative of the Republic in the main.

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Ben wrote:

I disagree, kids get politics just fine – they know there’s the playground bully, who gets away tons of crap, until a kid goes Dark Side Anakin on ’em and pounds them into the ground. We don’t like to think kids are able to see failure or hypocrisy, but I’m pretty certain the parents here know they go straight for that.

You’re saying the Jedi are the bullies? I agree. From my point of view the Jedi are evil. Just look at this shit:

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njerry, Uncle Retrospective

Star Wars: The Bad Batch Animated Series About Clones Headed to Disney+

Eyed for a 2021 launch, Star Wars: The Bad Batch follows the titular elite and experimental clones (first introduced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars) as they find their way in a rapidly changing galaxy in the immediate aftermath of the Clone War. Members of Bad Batch – a unique squad of clones who vary genetically from their brothers in the Clone Army — each possess a singular exceptional skill which makes them extraordinarily effective soldiers and a formidable crew. In the post-Clone War era, they will take on daring mercenary missions as they struggle to stay afloat and find new purpose.

I guess that explains why they spent a third of the final season on that fairly underwhelming arc. I like the troopers, but I’d rather they did something in the post-Rebels space rather than double-back on the post-RotS period again.

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Uncle Retrospective

Nah, I doubt it was that planned.

paul f wrote:

something in the post-Rebels space rather than double-back on the post-RotS period again

I think they might be leaving that for Mando – after all, film/tv is king.

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Todd

[paul f]

Ben wrote:

I think they might be leaving that for Mando – after all, film/tv is king.

Sure, but I still think Mando fans who haven’t watched the animated shows are probably going to be confused by all of the Ahsoka/Dark Sabre/Bo-Katan stuff that looks to be coming in S2.

I hope it’s done well, as I’d like to see more of that stuff make its way in, but the reaction to the Dark Sabre in the finale and the Maul reveal in Solo has mostly been confusion. It might be better to keep that stuff in the animated space.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by paul f.

I think you’re over-thinking it Paul – all of that stuff can be covered by a line or two of dialogue, no more than that. No, you won’t get the full, full story, but you’ll have what you need to follow the episode.

The other game changer here is streaming – before? You’d have to pay loads to get all that other material, but now? Few £/$ only for the entire lot.  That changes the perception in turn and, since you’ve already paid that to access whatever Disney content drew you there, you’re simply getting more value.

The one area where they need to improve on, to really reap the benefits of that, is signposting.  So ‘how did Maul survive? go here’, ‘what was Maul’s final fate? Go here’, ‘who is Ahsoka? go here’.

Ben wrote:

I think you’re over-thinking it Paul – all of that stuff can be covered by a line or two of dialogue, no more than that. No, you won’t get the full, full story, but you’ll have what you need to follow the episode.

The other game changer here is streaming – before? You’d have to pay loads to get all that other material, but now? Few £/$ only for the entire lot.  That changes the perception in turn and, since you’ve already paid that to access whatever Disney content drew you there, you’re simply getting more value.

The one area where they need to improve on, to really reap the benefits of that, is signposting.  So ‘how did Maul survive? go here’, ‘what was Maul’s final fate? Go here’, ‘who is Ahsoka? go here’.

You mean like comic books used to do?

If it works, why not?  Disney have at least 11 films and 8 series of content, dispersed over a 60-70 year timeline, they can’t assume everyone knows how it all fits together.

And we have you to ask how it all fits together.

I missed the announcement at the time. I’ve just seen Michael Biehn has been cast in the second series of The Mandalorian.

Anonymous wrote:

And we have you to ask how it all fits together.

Well, yeah, there’s always that!

All I want now is a comedy version of Star Wars involving three incompetent Jedi who have been exiled to some weird island in the middle of nowhere. Basically retooling the Jedi Order into the Catholic Church from Father Ted.  Nothing else will suffice.

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Bruce, Christian, DavidM, Todd, Dave

saga wrote:

All I want now is a comedy version of Star Wars involving three incompetent Jedi who have been exiled to some weird island in the middle of nowhere. Basically retooling the Jedi Order into the Catholic Church from Father Ted.  Nothing else will suffice.

If you turn that into a mystery movie it could be pretty cool. Three Jedi stuck on some weird mysterious planet in the outback of the galaxy, who have to figure out a way back. Robinson Crusoe in space. Of course they’re put there by some evil space wizard they will fight in the end.

saga wrote:

All I want now is a comedy version of Star Wars involving three incompetent Jedi who have been exiled to some weird island in the middle of nowhere. Basically retooling the Jedi Order into the Catholic Church from Father Ted.  Nothing else will suffice.

“I hear you’re a Rey-Sith now, master?”

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Bruce

saga wrote:

All I want now is a comedy version of Star Wars involving three incompetent Jedi who have been exiled to some weird island in the middle of nowhere. Basically retooling the Jedi Order into the Catholic Church from Father Ted.  Nothing else will suffice.

“These stories are from a long time ago, but those stories are in a galaxy far, far away.”

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Bruce, DavidM, Todd

saga wrote:

All I want now is a comedy version of Star Wars involving three incompetent Jedi who have been exiled to some weird island in the middle of nowhere. Basically retooling the Jedi Order into the Catholic Church from Father Ted.  Nothing else will suffice.

“Those Imperial credits were just resting in Coruscant.”

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Bruce, Uncle Retrospective, Todd

“I was just thinking about my next temple. Mace Windu is always threatening to send me somewhere unpleasant, and this time I think he just might go through with it. You see…I’m going to kick him up the arse.”

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Bruce, Uncle Retrospective, Dave

“That would be an extended universe matter.”

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Bruce, Uncle Retrospective

The scene of a bunch of Jedi getting lost and flustered in Tatooine’s largest lingerie department should keep Twitter busy for a while.

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Bruce, Dave

Will you have a cup of blue milk, master jedi? Ah, go on.

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Bruce, DavidM

If you can find, track down a copy of:

• A Death Star Is Born
• The Emperor’s Court

They’re both short comedy omics stories from DHC’s run.

The passion of darth plagueis!

Todd wrote:

Star Wars: The Bad Batch Animated Series About Clones Headed to Disney+

Well, that’s going to make my kid happy, that’s for sure.

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Will_C, Todd

I would like to see a movie where they just go full throttle with Jedi (or other force users) badassery. That cartoon by Tartakovsky did that so well. The only thing where Mace Windu was cool.

 

Rise of Skywalker screwed that up a little though. The force is now just random magical powers and force lightning can blow up a thousand spaceships at once. That was ridiculous.

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Will_C

Couldn’t Rey and Kylo even teleport items between each other? So dumb.

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Todd

[Ben]

Yeah. I expect them to put all of the RoS Force powers back in the box, mark it Dyad Only, with a ‘never use again’ note and then sling it in the LFL warehouse that holds the Ark of the Covenant.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by Ben.

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DavidM, Will_C, Rocket, Todd

Will_C wrote:

Couldn’t Rey and Kylo even teleport items between each other? So dumb.

After all that time it turned out that the Force was in fact the Amazon Prime delivery service.

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Todd

Only a few will get the significance of this:  It’s just been found out that, in the upcoming Star Wars: Squadrons, the 181st gets a mention.

Will explain what it is….. later.

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The 1-80-Worst.

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Ben

Darth Vader Is Right: Sith Are MORE Honest Than Jedi, Because

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-sith-more-honest-than-jedi/

JRCarter wrote:

Darth Vader Is Right: Sith Are MORE Honest Than Jedi, Because

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-sith-more-honest-than-jedi/

From a certain point of view…

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JRCarter

Watching ESB on TNT.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think everyone is too hard on Lando. It’s not like he wanted to betray Han and the others. He had a colony under his command to consider. Even if he had decided to resist Vader in the beginning, there’s no guarantee Han and the others wouldn’t have been taken prisoner.

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Todd, Uncle Retrospective, lorcan_nagle

Oh, and speaking of Lando:

Star Wars: A Lando Series Should Star Donald Glover AND Billy Dee Williams

If Star Wars movies had the correct titles pic.twitter.com/XZCMww7LKV

— Rob Keyes (@rob_keyes) July 31, 2020

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lorcan_nagle

JRCarter wrote:

Oh, and speaking of Lando:

Star Wars: A Lando Series Should Star Donald Glover AND Billy Dee Williams

Billy Dee Williams could play his father, Bando Calrissian, who’s a much more respectable version of Lando and is dismissive of everything Lando does, even though he’s always screwing up and Lando has to pull his ass out of trouble. He would call Lando “Junior” throughout the film, except right at the end when they have a big moment and finally reconcile. There would be lots of jokes like someone walking into a room and saying “Mr Calrissian?” and they both answer “Yes.” It would be hilarious.

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Andy, Uncle Retrospective, Dave

DavidM wrote:

Billy Dee Williams could play his father, Bando Calrissian

No, make him his father’s father and call him Grando Calrissian.

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Todd, DavidM

JRCarter wrote:

If Star Wars movies had the correct titles pic.twitter.com/XZCMww7LKV

— Rob Keyes (@rob_keyes) July 31, 2020

He’s got a point…

Also: fuck tik tok and its lack of a volume slider in 2020.

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JRCarter

Yeah, that was pretty good.

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garjones, Todd

I know that not everyone can do deepfakes of that high quality, but daaaaaamn son, that tech is really impressive. Marvel’s de-aging’s got shit on this, and it probably a lot more expensive to do. It’s strange that no movie’s used this yet

Jon wrote:

It’s strange that no movie’s used this yet

Or maybe they all are. How would you know?

The world’s A-list actors could all be phoning in their performances from the poolside while Andy Serkis does all the physical stuff for them.

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Andy, Todd

DavidM wrote:

Jon wrote:

It’s strange that no movie’s used this yet

Or maybe they all are. How would you know?

The world’s A-list actors could all be phoning in their performances from the poolside while Andy Serkis does all the physical stuff for them.

That’s my point though, you can still see the stunt-work in movies, and with this tech there’s no real need anymore to do the usual tricks like shooting from weird angles and all that so you can’t see the stunt double’s face. This is quite a game-changer in many regards…

So for exemple, in Capt. Marvel, sure “young” Nick Fury looked decent enough, but the problem is, he still moved like an old man and you could tell. So in that instance, they could’ve used this on a young double and I do believe even the de-aging would’ve looked better. Plus, Hollywood VFX companies have the advantage of having the best of both world, because these deepfakes are very rudimentary, but combine the deepfake tech with other tech and boom!

So yeah, it’s a bit puzzling they’re not using it yet.

It’s not puzzling. The tech isn’t there yet. Try watching a deepfake video on a big screen. Disney demoed a 1024×1024 megapixels model at a conference couple months ago. It’s fairly limited so far.

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Todd, Ben

Anonymous wrote:

It’s not puzzling. The tech isn’t there yet. Try watching a deepfake video on a big screen. Disney demoed a 1024×1024 megapixels model at a conference couple months ago. It’s fairly limited so far.

Well, of course it’s not there yet at the amateur level it’s being made. But it’s not just about using deepfakes and that’s that, you still need to smooth the rough edges with more traditional VFX… the point is just taking it as a base, so to speak. But anyways, that’s why I’m talking about the “tech” itself, and not the “process” they actually use… so basically take the deepfakes tech and tweak it to be used more seamlsessly in conjunction with the rest of the more traditional VFX tech.

Disney are amateurs? What you’re asking for doesn’t currently exist.

I’m not sure the technologies you’re both talking about are really all that different. In both cases you’re mapping the young face of an actor onto another performance – it’s just that with digital ‘youthing’ it’s their own performance while with ‘deepfake’ technology it’s that of another actor.

Both techniques have already been used in movies (digital face replacement on stuntmen is common) but I think Bernadette is right in that the question is just how convincing you can make it. Presumably it’s that little bit harder to map an actor’s face onto a different actor’s face because the structure of the face (and so expressions etc.) won’t match so easily.

I am sometimes surprised they don’t match a digitally youthed face to a younger actor’s performance though. It came up in conversation here recently with Deniro in The Irishman – a younger actor’s body movements could have made that infamous fight scene a little more convincing.

It’s not just how convincing you make it, it’s also how cost-effective by cutting back on the amount of rendering, labour, time etc. involved. Here’s the paper I was talking about that was presented at the recent EGSR symposium:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/disney-research-data/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/18013325/High-Resolution-Neural-Face-Swapping-for-Visual-Effects.pdf

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lorcan_nagle

Anonymous wrote:

Disney are amateurs? What you’re asking for doesn’t currently exist.

I’m not talking about Disney’s tech, which I’m guessing is not quite the same? (correct me if I’m wrong) but rather the one being used by amateurs on the internet.

You seem to know more about it, so I’ll defer to your opinion… I’m just going by that Solo video above, which, let’s be honest, looks A LOT better than the de-aging Disney’s used in the SW movies… and I don’t know what’s up with the resolution question, but that video is 4K (don’t know if it’s true 4k tho), and that one was made by the guy who uses deepfakes, so yeah, he’s presumably an “amateur” when compared to Disney.

We’re at cross-purposes here. They’re only beginning to get to grips with what can be achieved with this, so, in that sense, they’re all amateurs. The de-aging in the SW movies utilised different VFX. 4K is a different measurement.

The other definition of “amateurs” are only constrained by what they have available to play with and will often put in way more time and effort for little reward except their own satisfaction. Given the right timing and luck and a multitude of factors, it can become a showreel leading to professional gigs.

The downside is how the deepfake tech is becoming increasingly utilised as a political tool.

 

Anonymous wrote:

The downside is how the deepfake tech is becoming increasingly utilised as a political tool.

Well, I mean, every new tech is first used in porn, and then at some point in politics… =P

I don’t see how it’s more dangerous in politics than any of the other stuff that’s always been misused, but that’s an entirely different discussion.

Bollocks, Lego Star Wars bumped to 2021.

On the other hand, the new trailer for it is fucking spectacular.

Squadrons is also looking good and possibly more viable for me than I thought.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/john-boyega-says-his-star-wars-character-was-pushed-to-the-side-by-disney-while-adam-driver-and-daisy-ridley-were-given-all-the-nuance/ar-BB18D6mO?ocid=msedgdhp

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Ben, Todd

He’s not wrong.

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Ben, Dave

Yeah they completely fumbled the one interesting character of the whole bunch… gg =/

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garjones

Will_C wrote:

He’s not wrong.

It’s not like Rey and Ben were given that much nuance…

But Rian Johnson reduced Finn to comic relief and needing Rose to explain things to him. And then when Abrams came back for the final installment, he… was just sort of there. Same with Poe.

The Sequel Trilogy was an absolute clusterfuck. Disney should just swallow their pride, start from scratch, and remake it while Mark Hamill is still with us. It absolutely breaks my heart how badly they botched it. They were given one shot to knock it out of the park, and they struck out looking.

 

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Andy, Ben, Will_C, Todd

Jason wrote:

They were given one shot to knock it out of the park, and they struck out looking.

More like the batter got struck in the head by a bad pitch.

It’s refreshing to see Boyega be so honest about this rather than just sticking to the usual approved lines.

It seems like a lot of people involved didn’t have a great experience on the new movies.

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Will_C, Todd, Ben

Al-x wrote:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/john-boyega-says-his-star-wars-character-was-pushed-to-the-side-by-disney-while-adam-driver-and-daisy-ridley-were-given-all-the-nuance/ar-BB18D6mO?ocid=msedgdhp

“You get yourself involved in projects and you’re not necessarily going to like everything,” he said during an interview with GQ magazine. “What I would say to Disney is do not bring out a Black character, market them to be much more important in the franchise than they are, and then have them pushed to the side. It’s not good. I’ll say it straight up.”

Yup.

And Jon’s right, he was the most interesting character, too.

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Will_C, Todd, Ben

Really. The premise of a stormtrooper changing sides had so much to delve into, his lack of identity as a ‘number’ etc. and they did next to bugger all with it.

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Andy, Will_C, Ben, Todd, Dave

garjones wrote:

Really. The premise of a stormtrooper changing sides had so much to delve into, his lack of identity as a ‘number’ etc. and they did next to bugger all with it.

I’m not sure you could ever do that justice in a B-plot thread of a movie that’s about something else entirely. The character needs to be the lead in a movie of his own.

[garjones]

I bet to differ, he was initially a co-lead and they had 3 movies to work with.

I realise it’s an action movie franchise but I wasn’t thinking of a Mike Leigh style analysis of the human condition, just a bit of background and dramatic conflict, rather than just ignore it completely.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by garjones.

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Christian, Ben

Oh yeah, they had plenty of time to explore him fully… and he had the perfect villain of his own in Phasma (whom they also wasted horribly, btw).

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Andy, garjones

I think of the main characters in the ST Luke still is the one with the most complex character exploration. Not to be mean to any of the other actors, but their characters were written as kind of one note or unimpressive. Finn was a bit of a laughing stock. If you compare it to the OT, those characters were all written as being supercool.

Star Wars fans spot heartwarming Obi-Wan detail you might have missed

This is a nice little connection that I hadn’t made before.

(To save you the clickbait, the last thing Obi-Wan sees before he dies is Luke and Leia reunited, having been present at their separation a generation earlier.)

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Todd, Ben

Anonymous wrote:

I think of the main characters in the ST Luke still is the one with the most complex character exploration. Not to be mean to any of the other actors, but their characters were written as kind of one note or unimpressive. Finn was a bit of a laughing stock. If you compare it to the OT, those characters were all written as being supercool.

Oh, I don’t know, there were a lot of goofy moments in the OT. And really the thing that made the difference with Luke is that he actually had a character arc, that at the beginning he was just a country bumbkin with big dreams and he slowly grew into a powerful Jedi. The Mary Sue accusation is kind of true, but it goes for all of the characters, not just Rey, and none more so than fucking Anakin. Luke was the only main character who truly worked because of that, and Finn could easily have been that kind of character, too – he was the only one in that movie who could’ve had that kind of journey ahead of him really, with Rey being too much of a Mary Sue and Poe being a pretty one-note Han Solo equivalent.

Christian wrote:

Oh, I don’t know, there were a lot of goofy moments in the OT.

 

True but Han Solo was still cool. I don’t know, do kids these days want to be Poe Dameron like kids used to want to be Han Solo? I don’t know, I just kinda doubt it.

 

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Anonymous wrote:

Christian wrote:

Oh, I don’t know, there were a lot of goofy moments in the OT.

 

True but Han Solo was still cool. I don’t know, do kids these days want to be Poe Dameron like kids used to want to be Han Solo? I don’t know, I just kinda doubt it.

 

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd, Dave

Anonymous wrote:

True but Han Solo was still cool. I don’t know, do kids these days want to be Poe Dameron like kids used to want to be Han Solo? I don’t know, I just kinda doubt it.

They probably could have – Poe certainly isn’t any less cool of a character than Han was. But Poe wasn’t well-served by the movies, either.

On the other hand, I personally always wanted to be Luke and can’t really understand anyone wanting to be Han. And in the same way, hey, if there’s one positive thing about the sequels, it’s hopefully that some girls will now dream of being Rey.

Christian wrote:

The Mary Sue accusation is kind of true, but it goes for all of the characters, not just Rey, and none more so than fucking Anakin.

Yeah, I know that Lorcan doesn’t like Rey being called “Mary Sue,” but, good god, her entire story arc just comes off like someone’s laughable fan fiction.

She just sort of wanders into the story with no skin in the game, she already has super-powers that don’t need to be honed or developed, she inherits Luke’s old lightsaber, the Millennium Falcon, and Red-5, gets kissed back to life by Prince (not so) Charming, and, in the end, names herself “Skywalker” (even though there’s really no in-story reason to do this, the only thing Luke did for was give her a two minute pep talk and the keys to his old X-Wing, otherwise he’s an asshole to her) and gets her own gold lightsaber.

At first, I wasn’t really sure how you get Anakin being a Mary Sue; his story arc was more or less pre-ordained by the OT, but giving it a bit more thought, Lucas got really attached to Anakin at some point between 1983 and 1999, claiming the saga was really the story of Anakin and shaping the prequel trilogy in that way. Not to mention all of the “Chosen One” prophesy, virgin birth woo-woo, and he’s got more midichlorians than anyone, ever he felt the need to throw in there. All of sudden he couldn’t just be someone with an innate talent for the Force, he had to be the most special Jedi Knight ever.

I think the OT really worked because it avoided all of that claptrap. Luke wasn’t some kind of savior, he was just some kid who wanted power converters, Darth Vader was just this Jedi who fell to the Dark Side and became corrupted. It didn’t turn anyone into Jesus Christ or Satan, it was just a story about people.

 

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Jason wrote:

Yeah, I know that Lorcan doesn’t like Rey being called “Mary Sue,” but, good god, her entire story arc just comes off like someone’s laughable fan fiction.

Because nothing that gets attributed to her- or indeed any Star Wars character makes them a Mary Sue. It’s yet another term that became “thing I don’t like” and has been misused to the point of incomprehensibility.

I believe calling a character a Mary Sue is less a comment on the character and more a comment on the laziness of the writer or creator of said character.

njerry wrote:

I believe calling a character a Mary Sue is less a comment on the character and more a comment on the laziness of the writer or creator of said character.

That’s literally misusing the term to the point of incomprehensibility.

 

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Uncle Retrospective

Yeah too bad language ain’t a flexible thing that changes and evolves over time… oh wait…

Jon wrote:

Yeah too bad language ain’t a flexible thing that changes and evolves over time… oh wait…

The general consensus has broadened the usage of the term “Mary Sue” from its 1970s origins as an author surrogate in fan fiction whether Lorcan likes it or not. Even dictionary.com and wikipedia acknowledge this.

At any rate, nobody seems to have come up with a new term for poorly written characters who lack interesting flaws that has caught on. “Canon Sue” or “Creator’s Pet” maybe?

 

Jason wrote:

At any rate, nobody seems to have come up with a new term for poorly written characters who lack interesting flaws that has caught on. “Canon Sue” or “Creator’s Pet” maybe?

Maybe a cogent and thought-out criticism instead of resorting to bullshit buzzwords?

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Todd

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Jason wrote:

At any rate, nobody seems to have come up with a new term for poorly written characters who lack interesting flaws that has caught on. “Canon Sue” or “Creator’s Pet” maybe?

Maybe a cogent and thought-out criticism instead of resorting to bullshit buzzwords?

Is this your first day on the Internet?

Todd wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Jason wrote:

At any rate, nobody seems to have come up with a new term for poorly written characters who lack interesting flaws that has caught on. “Canon Sue” or “Creator’s Pet” maybe?

Maybe a cogent and thought-out criticism instead of resorting to bullshit buzzwords?

Is this your first day on the Internet?

Well, if you don’t want to improve your surroundings…

Joking aside, as fun as TVTropes or Cinema Sins and their ilk can be, they’re a fucking blight on critical thought and media analysis because they encourage classifying everything as fitting into a series of boxes, or as a puzzle that needs to be solved.  I mean, I don’t think the sequel movies are great (though I stand by my prediction that the debate in 10-20 years will be whether Last Jedi or Empire is the best Star Wars movie, that’s more a commentary on the relative quality of the other Stars War and the thematic questions Last Jedi raises about the franchise as a whole), but the discussion around them is largely boiled down to whether the characters fit this trope or that one, whether they’re a rehash of other Star Wars movies or not, and a dash of how upset people are about the EU going away.  It’s very little discussion about the movies on their own merits.