.As part of the testing process I thought I’d kick off the traditional Star Wars thread.
The Obi-Wan Kenobi series with Ewan McGregor has been confirmed for Disney+ to begin shooting next year.
There’s also been new footage previewed from Rise Of Skywalker, although it’s not online
https://io9.gizmodo.com/new-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-footage-featured-r-1837449069
Sounds like it could be interesting.
Excellent write-up, Ben. A very interesting read!
A few thoughts as one era ends and another begins…#StarWars pic.twitter.com/ZucNHEPtaS
— Mark Hamill (@HamillHimself) April 3, 2020
It would be perfectly in-character for him to start coming out with increasingly bitchy asides in his old age
I have read that according to some, Anthony Daniels is notoriously hard to work with so perhaps it would be in character for him too…
I could see R2 as a drunk Glaswegian old man too.
Us real fans know the reason he doesn’t have a proper talking chip is because of the excessive obscenities he’s programmed with.
Star Wars fans moaning about comic art is neither new or news. That image is from IDW’s al ages Return of the Jedi graphic novel that came out last year.
Sometimes, it is warranted – like Marvel’s weird requirement of photo referencing for a lot of the main Star Wars book, along with weird digital colouring that made for very odd imagery. But here? Nah. It’s just a cartoony art.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Meh.
What I want to know is why Luke looked more like Dorothy Hamill than Mark Hamill in the Holiday Special?
Eh, it seems someone tampered the image to make Luke’s lips much pinker than they are in the printed version, so fuck that, that’s dishonest clickbait…
that’s dishonest clickbait…
Is there another kind of clickbait?
that’s dishonest clickbait…
Is there another kind of clickbait?
Wait now til I tell you this, Jerry…
(I haven’t actually decided what exacetedlly this is yet but I’m sure it will be spectacular).
They left out the part at the end where the padawans are all fucking killed by either Anakin or by Kylo Ren.
I mean, I love the idea of that Jedi Temple Challenge. Would’ve loved doing that as a kid. But it says everything about the Star Wars films that there is not a single moment in any of those movies that would inspire this kind of thing.
Crystal Maze meets Star Wars is a fun idea. And I definitely think you can see inspiration for it in stuff like Rey’s training at the start of Rise of Skywalker.
Announcement:
My 9 year old nephews verdict on each Star Wars movie:
The Phantom Menace : Good (also referred to as “the one with the racing and ‘the Phantom one’
Attack of the Clones: Ok, but anakin gets mean (also referred to as “the movie Clone wars”)
Revenge of the Sith: Bad – anakin is too mean.
A New Hope: The best one.
Empire Strikes Back: ok.
Return of the Jedi: Really good and funny.
The Force Awakens: Ok.
The Last Jedi: Not good. Luke is too mean.
Rise of the Skywalker: Really good!
…
So, there you have it.
#ReleasetheNephewWorldVisionCut
All hope, so funny, no mean. Really good. (Extra pupsys in the Extended Cut). Full stars.
The biggest surprise for me was Rise of Skywalker.
I have two nephews and they both recently saw it on Disney+ so maybe the recentness of it is a factor, but they both really liked it. Nephew 9 years was saying all the funny scenes from it that I had completely glossed over (like Rey mind controlling the stormtroppers to be relieved) and nephew 7 years was in fervant agreement.
On the whole the top three films seemed to be A New Hope (clear winner), Return of the Jedi and Rise of Skywalker.
It did remind me that for all the wanky bullshit that we constantly postulate as grown adults about the things we believe we are entitled to, there is an audience out there that just doesnt see things that way.
It did remind me that for all the wanky bullshit that we constantly postulate as grown adults about the things we believe we are entitled to, there is an audience out there that just doesnt see things that way.
Yeah, but on the other hand, kids are notoriously dumb… so… 
On a more serious note though, has SW ever been for kids (I mean the main movies)? It always seemed to me like it was geared for teenagers and YAs…
(Do we ever see blood in Star Wars?)
SW is pretty brutal for kids. It’s not nothing to blow up planets or stab someone in the heart with a lightsaber.
Nah, it’s mostly presented in a fairly cartoonish way that is no more disturbing for kids than a Saturday morning cartoon.
A couple of scenes are exceptions – stuff like Anakin getting burned alive and reconstructed is a little graphic – but mostly it’s pretty bloodless and clean.
I was brought to see Return of the Jedi in the cinema at my request when I was 6, after I’d seen Star Wars repeatedly on TV at younger ages. I don’t think I actually saw Empire in its entirety until a few years later.
Star Wars is like a lot of movies pre-PG-13 ratings, it’s for families. Same as Bond, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Poltergeist, etc. There’s things in there for kids, teens, and adults. The “SW is a kid’s movie” line has never tracked for me. Little Mermaid is a kid’s movie, SW and stuff like it is the next tier up.
Poltergeist !?
Rise of the Skywalker: Really good!
Save your brother and the rest of straya some grief and call the dog food factory for a price?
It’s my sister’s boy, but he loved Babu Frik and all that other dumb shit so I am forced to admit the kid is on Team Gar with this one.
Star Wars is like a lot of movies pre-PG-13 ratings, it’s for families. Same as Bond, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Poltergeist, etc. There’s things in there for kids, teens, and adults. The “SW is a kid’s movie” line has never tracked for me. Little Mermaid is a kid’s movie, SW and stuff like it is the next tier up.
I agree with you. There’s a tendency in recent times as things get more and more placed into categories a denial of the existence of ‘family entertainment’.
It’s always got on my nerves for years in debating Doctor Who and whether it’s a kids show or not. It’s always been very simple, it’s a family show, it goes out in a family slot, it is made by BBC Drama and not Children’s BBC because it’s aimed at everyone.
Now entertainment is spread more disparately, the family are more often split into their own channels (be it on TV or streaming) it’s become more of a questionable concept.
By the way the Star Wars OT was given a U rating in the UK (same as G in the US). Standing for universal or general.
It did remind me that for all the wanky bullshit that we constantly postulate as grown adults about the things we believe we are entitled to, there is an audience out there that just doesnt see things that way.
That was the thing about RoS for me. I thought it was fine, for what it was. Lots of space adventure, some funny bits that worked for me, all held together by a pretty daft questing plot, but hey. It all works well enough, especially for kids.
As a kid I was far more upset by the cartoon Transformers movie, which opened with a good twenty minutes or so of the Autobots being brutally slaughtered and Optimus Prime passing away on his death bed. Throw in an obligatory use of the word “shit” and you’ve got a fun day out for the whole family by 1986 moviegoing standards.
That was the thing about RoS for me. I thought it was fine, for what it was. Lots of space adventure, some funny bits that worked for me, all held together by a pretty daft questing plot, but hey. It all works well enough, especially for kids.
Same here. Most of the failings really are mainly down to the structure of the trilogy, expectations on how characters are treated etc. Like the question of bringing Palpatine back in out of nowhere. The less you are invested in that though the less it matters.
As a standalone film it is well made, acted and with good action and moves at a pace where it is never boring. That’s not to say those criticisms aren’t valid, they definitely are, but the more it is disconnected from feelings about the franchise as a whole the better it is.
Most of the failings really are mainly down to the structure of the trilogy, expectations on how characters are treated etc. Like the question of bringing Palpatine back in out of nowhere. The less you are invested in that though the less it matters.
As a standalone film it is well made, acted and with good action and moves at a pace where it is never boring. That’s not to say those criticisms aren’t valid, they definitely are, but the more it is disconnected from feelings about the franchise as a whole the better it is.
I think that defence holds true for most Star Wars films but Rise of Skywalker is an exception in that it actually is quite badly made.
It feels like a longer film that’s been cut down and has key scenes missing, so the story jumps around and misses out basic connecting tissue that you just have to infer for yourself and fill in the gaps if you want to understand what’s happening (and not in a way that feels intentional – Star Wars has always aimed to be accessible and clear in the past, but this one isn’t).
I didn’t notice it so much on the first watch, but struggling through it again on Disney+ I noticed that particular scenes (the opening, the scenes around Chewy’s death/non-death, the escape from Kylo Ren’s ship, and Rey’s journey to various locations towards the end, like visiting Luke) were really mangled and missing bits that were needed to make them work properly.
Plus the movie just doesn’t find time for any moments where the characters can show what they’re feeling, which focuses attention even more on the wonky plot, because that’s all there really is to the movie. (As such I can’t really criticise the acting because they’re just not really given anything to work with.)
So overall, RoS is one of the few times when actually I think being a fan and being invested in it all actually helps, as you need that desire to see how it all plays out to carry you through the poor storytelling.
This isn’t a reaction against how they treated the characters and ruined the trilogy/ies etc., I liked The Last Jedi a lot and didn’t mind the liberties it took on that front because I think it genuinely was a very well-made film in the way that you’re talking about. But it’s a very different film to Rise of Skywalker, where I don’t think those same defences apply.
I can see that (and I only watched it once) but thinking more from a little kids perspective I suspect the breakneck pace from what looks like a longer film cut into a certain time frame could also be appealing.
By ‘well made’ I was referring more to the quality of production, I also saw that the pacing left it little room to breathe.
It is absolutely a family movie, and it isn’t the type of movie you would watch without kids who are between 7 – 13.
I may have mis-parsed this, but are you saying I can’t watch Star Wars unless I take a 7-13 year old with me? 
On a more serious note though, has SW ever been for kids (I mean the main movies)? It always seemed to me like it was geared for teenagers and YAs…
Star Wars is the epitome of “all ages” entertainment.
It has a lot of flash and spectacle that children can enjoy, but there are also a depths that children won’t necessarily grasp until they’re older. It’s the kind of thing you can watch when you’re six and fall in love with, and still get things out of it when you’re forty-six.
I think it’s dismissive (and wrong) to say that Star Wars is for children, or that the primary audience is children. There is (or should be) stuff in it for everyone. Unfortunately, too many Star Wars fans (and even Lucas himself) often reduce Star Wars down to “for children” when it is criticized, and it’s sort of like they don’t really get what’s going on.
This where the prequel and sequel trilogy missed the mark. The prequels tried to have it both ways, skewing too much into kids’ stuff (Jar-Jar, I’m looking at you) and then grafting that onto all of the political maneuvering (Trade Federations, Senate debates); there’s really a golden mean that they really missed. And the sequel trilogy misses the mark by, ultimately, being basic as fuck. Instead of telling its own story, it just sort of presents a greatest hits of the previous films with some new (and old) faces, but doesn’t really have much sense of the franchise’s mythology, and it’s a sequel in the worst sense of the word.
The other franchise, I think, that comes closest to Star Wars in the “all ages” category is Harry Potter/The Wizarding World. The first two books/movies are pretty much children’s tales, but as the series progresses, it starts to skew older, and there’s a lot of depth that I don’t think the average nine year-old will get, like Snape. I think a lot of kids could probably understand Snape’s character on a surface level — the mean, bitter teacher with a sad backstory, but you’re probably not going to understand the depth of regret that drives and eats away at him until well into your adult years.
The other franchise, I think, that comes closest to Star Wars in the “all ages” category is Harry Potter/The Wizarding World. The first two books/movies are pretty much children’s tales, but as the series progresses, it starts to skew older, and there’s a lot of depth that I don’t think the average nine year-old will get, like Snape.
To be fair I think Harry Potter actually exists in its own space. Rowling wrote the books to reflect a British secondary and tertiary school model, which is from the ages of 11-18. It’s why there are 7 books, to match the 7 years of education. They increase in sophistication and nuance (and often length) so the age of the reader matches the age of the kids. There’s no romance in the books until they reach puberty for example.
That’s a huge part of their success as their readers literally grew up with it but I don’t think that’s usually the aim of any other franchise.
Family entertainment was basically the staple for a long time. Star Trek was family entertainment until recently they thought it cool to add effing and jeffing, which I think was a really dumb idea.
Family entertainment was basically the staple for a long time. Star Trek was family entertainment until recently they thought it cool to add effing and jeffing, which I think was a really dumb idea.
This isn’t entirely accurate. It’s been aired as a family show in the UK, but to do so 4 episodes of TOS were never shown on the BBC until the 90s due to what was teemed mature content (one of these was Plato’s Stepchildren, so… yikes)
In the 60s, the show came under fire for the line “Let’s get the hell out of here” at the end of City at the End of Forever, which was seen a blasphemy by certain pundits despite the use of the word in other episodes to describe the biblical hell, and there’s been mild swearing in the movies and to a lesser degree the TV shows since the 80s.
This isn’t entirely accurate. It’s been aired as a family show in the UK, but to do so 4 episodes of TOS were never shown on the BBC until the 90s due to what was teemed mature content (one of these was Plato’s Stepchildren, so… yikes)
DS9 was also censored in the UK for an episode where Worf snaps a guy’s neck, and another where Worf’s kid cuts his palm with a dagger for a ritual. They didn’t pull the episodes though, just the shots, which I think are still gone on the UK DVDs. Netflix probably uses the same files for the US and UK though.
Still there is something odd about the fact it is so murderous. Everybody walks around with guns and laser swords, people burn to a crisp, there is a lot of death and violence. And it is kid friendly.
Like I say though, I think it’s all about how it’s presented rather than the events themselves. I loved Road Runner cartoons as a kid and some of that is bordering on Saw levels of violence.
This isn’t entirely accurate. It’s been aired as a family show in the UK, but to do so 4 episodes of TOS were never shown on the BBC until the 90s due to what was teemed mature content (one of these was Plato’s Stepchildren, so… yikes)
DS9 was also censored in the UK for an episode where Worf snaps a guy’s neck, and another where Worf’s kid cuts his palm with a dagger for a ritual. They didn’t pull the episodes though, just the shots, which I think are still gone on the UK DVDs. Netflix probably uses the same files for the US and UK though.
Yeah, there were a lot of episodes cut for content, like the infamous chestburster scene in TNG series 1, but they weren’t banned outright like the TOS episodes, and they tended to air uncut on RTE. They’re not cut on Netflix. And then, of course there’s The High Ground…
I’m not knowledgeable enough about Star Trek to know about those specific examples of non-child-friendly content, but in general I’ve always had the impression that Star Trek in its various forms was a fairly family-friendly show, if maybe a little boring in places for younger kids to stick with.
But having watched Discovery and Picard I feel as though they’re more broadly aimed at a decidedly adult (or at least teens-and-up) audience in a way that hasn’t been true of the series and movies in the past. Is that fair?
That’s fair. Like I said, a lot of the perception of Trek as a family show in the UK comes from its traditional timeslot, and a decent amount of kid-centric merch like storybooks and toys (TMP was the first movie to have a Happy Meal tie-in). Even in the US and on other European TV channels it only aired a little bit later in the evening back in the day, still pre-watershed.
I think it’s a case that Trek for the most part has been an more or less adult drama with elements that appeal to kids like action, SF themes, and with TOS especially, a level of camp and pulp luridness. The show always seems to aim a bit higher than that? Like, not explicitly a family show, but also not not a family show either. Enterprise definitely pushed at those limits with attempts to be sexy, but thet were more laughable than titilating.
With DISCO and Picard and the upcoming Lower Decks show being written by a Rick and Morty alum, it definitely looks like the CBS All-Access Trek shows are going to be more explicitly aimed at adults. But there’s also a cartoon planned for Nickelodeon to attract the younger demographic.
It is absolutely a family movie, and it isn’t the type of movie you would watch without kids who are between 7 – 13.
I may have mis-parsed this, but are you saying I can’t watch Star Wars unless I take a 7-13 year old with me?
Badly written.
It is a movie you will watch with your 7-13 year old kid as a family thing.
Obviously, if the kids watch it without you then they’re being very rude.
Sorry dear
You never need to apologise to me, m’dearest.
(Men never bloody listen).
Back to Star Wars. Lucas was pretty accurate about Brexit. The only thing he got wrong was that the trade negotiations would be short, and then ultimately ignored.
Also, I liked The Last Jedi. Rian clearly loves the Star Wars verse and is well-versed with all his easter eggs and whatnot.
Luke didn’t mean to be mean.
Yeah I liked the Last Jedi too, and nephew 9 years’ Dad (who is probably a Star Wars fan only marginally on a fewer level than Ben) liked it as well.
The kids didn’t though. They didn’t appreciate the cinematography (which I think is absolutely the best in the series) and, importantly I think for them, Luke wasn’t a heroic figure. I think the emotional logic of Luke’s journey in that film makes sense, but kids don’t care about that stuff. They want the power fantasy, particular because they’re already invested in the power fantasy of this guy from the original trilogy.
So with that in mind I asked them whether they they liked the scene with Yoda whirling around in Attack of the Clones (naturally the response was “yes!”). Obviously, making these films are tricky but I think it is possible to appease all audiences … to bring balance to the force.
Star Trek was a primetime tv series in the 1960s. It was made for a general audience like all other programs at the time. It’s not more for children or adults than Dragnet was. Back then most everything on tv was basically all-ages appropriate; they didn’t have stuff like The Sopranos or The Walking Dead. And even then, I am often surprised at how many children watch The Walking Dead. I know some five-six-seven year-olds who love The Walking Dead and watch it religously; it probably would scared the shit out of me when I was that age.
I think Star Trek comes at an interesting time, where science fiction was just starting to break out into the mainstream. In the years before around — I’ll ballpark and say 1965 — science fiction was a pulpy genre seen as something for children/teens/maladjusted adults. It wasn’t until books like Dune and Stranger in a Strange Land and Kubrik’s 2001: A Space Odyssey that science fiction started to be taken seriously.
The kids didn’t though. They didn’t appreciate the cinematography (which I think is absolutely the best in the series) and, importantly I think for them, Luke wasn’t a heroic figure. I think the emotional logic of Luke’s journey in that film makes sense, but kids don’t care about that stuff. They want the power fantasy, particular because they’re already invested in the power fantasy of this guy from the original trilogy.
I think you can go a step further and say nobody was a heroic figure in this. Luke’s just being sullen and annoying, Rey has her weird thing with Kylo going on, which kids won’t know what to do with (interesting note, how Luke/Vader being a father/son thing is more relatable to them than Kylo/Rey’s attraction), Poe’s role is mainly to be shouted at by Holdo (who is also pretty mean), Leia is in a coma… Finn and Rose are the only ones who have an adventure, and that turns out terribly.
No wonder the kids don’t like it. In the end, Last Jedi just doesn’t have a sense of fun or adventure to it.
Last Jedi just doesn’t have a sense of fun or adventure to it.
Cute character done right? Babu Frik.
I bet he tastes like shit though.
They didn’t appreciate the cinematography (which I think is absolutely the best in the series) and, importantly I think for them, Luke wasn’t a heroic figure. I think the emotional logic of Luke’s journey in that film makes sense, but kids don’t care about that stuff. They want the power fantasy, particular because they’re already invested in the power fantasy of this guy from the original trilogy.
I have definitely found this. Kids find it difficult when stuff has a lot of nuance around who’s good or bad. I think stuff like that is as important as whether there’s gore or swearing to identify adult material.
The superhero films my kids liked least are definitely BvS followed by Civil War. The ambiguity confuses and annoys them.
Kids find it difficult when stuff has a lot of nuance around who’s good or bad.
Hey, so do I!
I really don’t get why people thought Babu Frik was cute…
Oh btw, one of the things that made me chuckle about The Last Jedi’s appologies is someone who said “oh it’s for kids, it’s a movie about space wizards and laser swords, stop whining”… And it’s funny because well, you know, the good guy’s ultimate play (and the best scene in the movie) is them suicide-bombing the bad guys’ ships… I’m honestly not sure that’s a good and wholesome message for anyone, let alone for kids.
Oh btw, one of the things that made me chuckle about The Last Jedi’s appologies is someone who said “oh it’s for kids, it’s a movie about space wizards and laser swords, stop whining”… And it’s funny because well, you know, the good guy’s ultimate play (and the best scene in the movie) is them suicide-bombing the bad guys’ ships… I’m honestly not sure that’s a good and wholesome message for anyone, let alone for kids.
I can’t believe they made a Star Wars movie where the heroes ended up sacrificing themselves in battle for the greater good!
the greater good!
The Greater Good
And it’s funny because well, you know, the good guy’s ultimate play (and the best scene in the movie) is them suicide-bombing the bad guys’ ships…
They’re terrorists, but they’re good terrorists.
History is full of great terrorists. The United States doesn’t exist without them.
I mean, if I went round saying I was freedom fighter just because some wrinkly geezer had lobbed a light saber at me, they’d put me away.
I mean, if I went round saying I was freedom fighter just because some wrinkly geezer had lobbed a light saber at me, they’d put me away.
Clone Wars is weird. For the first two series, it does this weird, all-over-the-place chronology – though someone did work out the actual order chronologically.
But from S3 onwards they abandoned that and the show got far better.
Once it did, it really works well with some story ideas that sound awful in concept but the execution sells them.
I mean… none of those examples are quite the same
You’re right, I should have included this one.
They didn’t appreciate the cinematography (which I think is absolutely the best in the series) and, importantly I think for them, Luke wasn’t a heroic figure. I think the emotional logic of Luke’s journey in that film makes sense, but kids don’t care about that stuff. They want the power fantasy, particular because they’re already invested in the power fantasy of this guy from the original trilogy.
The problem with Luke’s arc was that it just wasn’t satisfying within the context of the story Star Wars was trying to tell.
In The Force Awakens, I thought it was interesting and unexpected that Luke had gone off the grid and was missing. And then, at the end, when he finally shows up, it really fires the imagination. Where has he been all of this time? Was on some kind of quest for insight or some kind of artifact? Is he protecting something?
And the answer that The Last Jedi provides is that off pouting with his thumb up his ass. It’s just not a satisfying answer. And I think kids pick up on that. It’s less about a power fantasy (Luke doesn’t have to Hulk out and start smashing AT-ATs and blowing up Star Destroyers with the power of his mind) and just a simple That’s it? That’s all you’ve got?
I mean, yeah, there’s a certain emotional logic to Luke’s journey in the movie, but he never should have been put in that place to begin with. You can do that with some characters and some stories (and it’s basically the same arc that Obi-Wan had, so it’s just rehashing even more stuff from the previous movies) and it can work, but with the culmination of Luke’s arc and the greater Star Wars saga, it’s just lazy and uninspired.
I don’t think it did match Obi-Wan’s story as much as it seems superficially.
Obi-Wan was living his hermit life on Tattooine to look out for the baby/young Luke from afar, at a time when everyone else had given up on the Force.
Whereas Luke is the one who gives up on the Force and turns his back on looking after Kylo Ren, at a time when he could have done with Luke’s protection.
And the answer that The Last Jedi provides is that off pouting with his thumb up his ass. It’s just not a satisfying answer.
This is part of how The Last Jedi doesn’t play well with the other films, definitely. By actively avoiding the most obvious and predictable angles (Luke as Rey’s father, Luke as some ultimate all-powerful Jedi) it feels disjointed from the stuff in The Force Awakens that was leading in those directions.
Part of me wishes Abrams had masterminded all three movies, just for consistency, even if that came at the expense of the best movie of the three of them. Because by design, The Last Jedi doesn’t fit with the other Star Wars movies.
I don’t think it did match Obi-Wan’s story as much as it seems superficially.
Yeah this is an area where I end up disagreeing a lot with Christian. I think there are a lot of superficial comparisons between TLJ and TESB, probably deliberate, the Jedi training in a remote location, the salt planet looking like Hoth etc. Just the second act element that they are both quite downbeat but not that much else outside of that. For good or ill.
If I’m honest, despite being a fan, it probably worked too hard in subverting expectations. The family link from ESB means nothing, the thrice repeated trope of ‘disabling the remote shields’ (which isn’t actually in ESB but in ANH, RoTJ and TFA) fails this time so it seems like a pointless part of the film. The structure is very different.
It is flawed and I can understand the negative reaction to Luke’s apathy but it remains the most interesting because it isn’t 90% homage and fan service like Abrams’ editions.
Part of me wonders what a RoS trilogy version, done with the knowledge that this is the story being spun over the three films, would look like.
Probably different.
Ben and Rey would have been brothers and sisters. They would have both been Luke’s children, who through some artifice arranged to pretend they were Han and Leias. Lukes mother would have been some princess who died in childbirth mirroring the original story.
Snoke would have turned out to be an attendant of Palpatines who gained his power through some kind of sith-death ritual that happened after ROTJ, all by Palpatines design.
Carrie Fisher would still be alive due to the butterfly affect and she would have marshalled the troops in a Return of the Jedi like attack on the First Order (not the Final Order) in the last movie. Luke and Leia would have fought Snoke using their force powers (no lightsabers) while Rey battled Kylo. Kylo would be wearing a pseudo-darth costume. Obviously Luke is killed by Snoke and Leia is about to die, and then Kylo comes good and Rey and Kylo battle Snoke together and win the day.
Also, Finn and other guy would have done stuff too. Probably kiss.
In the end, it would have been a safe movie and there would have been lots of complaints different to the complaints that are complained about now but no less complainy.
The thing is, it takes a really good writer to pull off a big twist that makes sense within the context of the story being told. Just tearing down plotlines and foreshadowing that were being set up and then patting yourself on the back for defying the expectations of the audience just doesn’t cut it.
Agreed. The Last Jedi doesn’t really subvert much if anything at all, when you really think about it. In fact, it’s tropey as fuck, RJ just turned Luke into an asshole…
And for the record, I blame GoT for that recent trend.
I can’t believe they made a Star Wars movie where the heroes ended up sacrificing themselves in battle for the greater good!
I can’t believe they made one in which one of the film’s big issues that pop up again and again is that you shouldn’t sacrifice yourself (or others) for the greater good, except, like, when you get a really cool shot of a star destroyer being ripped apart out of it.
It’s another one where the movie half-assedly tries to “subvert” a Star Wars theme superficially but actually does exactly the same thing as all of them.
Carrie Fisher would still be alive due to the butterfly affect
This is the only part of this version that sounds good.
I sacrificed my imagination when I became a lawyer beep boop
And for the record, I blame GoT for that recent trend.
I blame The Empire Strikes Back.
And for the record, I blame GoT for that recent trend.
I blame The Empire Strikes Back.
Making Vader Luke’s father was just such a dumb way to try and subvert fan expectations. It ruined the franchise.
RotJ also gave the template to GoT for the incest angle.
And surprise deaths by killing off Obi-Wan.
