Music: What Are You Listening To?

Topic

If music be the food of love, let’s eat it.

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My favourite heavy metal song:

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Al-x, Dave

I can imagine the mosh pit going mad for that.

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Al-x

Well…

Metallica plays their heavy metal and they KNOW that genre of music. All the heavy metal fans know and Metallica was a shoe in for that first time award.

Then the announcement was Jethro Tul and it was like WTF! The Grammys oh obviously had no idea what they were doing.

The following year Metallica won and Lars said thank you to Jethro Tul for not releasing an album that year giving Metallica a chance to win it. 😂

Now the parallel to that posting regarding R&B. Those who play R&B or any genre know the genre and can say that another work is not it and should not have won.

I am reminded of the year McClemore swept the Grammys rap categories and the outrage that followed. McClemore even broke up over the backlash.

I don’t believe just playing in a genre of music qualifies you to define the entire breadth of that genre. Genres mutate over time, as I showed with the wiki definition of R&B from the 60s (which sounds nothing like the R&B of the 2000s). If everyone playing R&B in 2020 is forced to sound like the people playing it in 2000, then that’s basically a dead genre and there’s really no point anyone playing R&B any more.

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garjones, Todd

I understand what you are saying but…

For example in 1999 there was pop single called “Mambo #5” by Lou Bega. It was a catchy tune with some horns and a small jazz sound, but he got a lot of backlash from real Cuban musicians and other Hispanics saying that it was not real mambo music and it gave the public the wrong idea.

Did the genuine articles have a right to say that?

It can be very frustrating if you spent so many years on something and someone else does a bastardized knockoff of it and they get all the credit, fanfare, attention, etc. as if they were the ones who originated it.

I dunno, there’s always been this interplay between the dedicated “true” musicians and the people that take a genre and make a popular “bastardized” version of it. Reminds me of all the backlash from the hip-hop community over MC Hammer.

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Todd, Al-x

[Al-x]

Dave wrote:

Reminds me of all the backlash from the hip-hop community over MC Hammer.

Good point and excellent example.

I said before about the dancing on TikTok, “Dirty Dancing”, “Saturday Night Fever” Bo Derek, Pat Boone. Gareth mentioned Led Zeppelin, then there is also Sting with the Police, Madonna with “Vogue”, Miley’s twerking…

There is that frustration from the “real deal” and original culture seeing their work either knocked off or downright stolen whether it involves racism, plagiarism, or whatever.

I can barely tolerate Nicki Minaj, but she did say something about what she has to put up with in society. You can skip to 50 seconds:

And Billy Porter with Harry Styles:

https://www.insider.com/harry-styles-vogue-cover-controversy-style-icon-non-binary-fashion-2020-12

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

Are we back here again? Musical sharing across cultures is a great thing as long as it remains respectful and acknowledged.

If you retain every musical style to it’s place of origin then hip-hop does not exist. It borrowed beats and samples from German electronica. You don’t have a danceform in NY called ‘vogueing’ because that is borrowing from French culture and their fashion magazine.

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Todd, DavidM

After Nine Inch Nails won the Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Grammy for the Broken EP, Trent Reznor declared that his gravestone would read “REZNOR. Sang the words ‘fist fuck’, won a Grammy”

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Rocket, Bruce, Todd, Sean Robinson, DavidM, garjones

garjones wrote:

If you retain every musical style to it’s place of origin then hip-hop does not exist. It borrowed beats and samples from German electronica.

That’s interesting, I literally just read an interview with Wolfgang Flur (Kraftwerk) that made the same point. I never considered it before, but once you think about it it’s obvious.

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garjones

When I saw Katie Doherty in concert at the weekend I was kind of baffled because her new music includes synthesised bass lines and triggered electronic percussion. But she’s a “folk singer”, everyone will tell you, and folk music doesn’t have that stuff.

The truth is, nobody knows what a “folk singer” really is. Someone who sings folk songs? Well, of course, but a huge number of folk singers write their own songs. How is a brand new song a “folk song”? Well, because it’s been written by a folk singer. And what’s a folk singer? Some who sings fol– errr…

So Katie played 90 minutes of her own songs, not a single traditional folk song all evening, but she’s billed as a “folk singer”.

The highlight of the night for me was when she introduced her new single and said, “Folk radio has refused to play it because it’s too electronic.” To me that just means she’s finally broken free of a meaningless genre label.

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Al-x

[Al-x]

Musical sharing is one thing. That would mean and imply an equal exchange, cooperation and acknowledgment.

The previous discussion we had wasn’t really about any of that. It was about stealing, taking credit with no acknowledgment to the original.

As for those award shows, that was about the judges who decide not really knowing like in the Metallica one. Then it is highly debateable if the one who got the billboard award for R&B really did R&B in the album.

—————————————————–

Again… I am not a militant keyboard sjw and never have been. I am just for proper cultural sharing, not stealing , and giving credit where credit is due.

But because of covid and staying inside, I got into more social media (like TikTok because Tr*mp wanted in banned), then I found out about the TikTok stealing which eventually led to all that social commentary flooding that site now.

Very briefly is was these two cute white girls (Charli Damelio and Addison Rae) who were getting all this attention (over 150M followers) for their dancing and even appearing on national TV like the NBA All Star Games, late night talk shows, and getting million dollar deals to be on Hulu and Netflix. Then on Twitter there came all the tweets with proof that they were not the originals and Twitter showed the real choreographers who were never given credit, money, nothing. All these parallels were then drawn to past history, the movie “Bring it On” etc. Now, they are all working legally on getting their choreography copyrighted, proper money compensation and so on.

Interestingly, now on TikTok there is use of the henna designs on the hands and some from India (which is from their culture) are getting mad as to its use by Americans treating it as a fad, using it on the face, acting like they started it, and so on. It runs along the lines of desecrating the cultural meaning, not respecting boundaries, and so on.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

Al-x wrote:

The previous discussion we had wasn’t really about any of that. It was about stealing, taking credit with no acknowledgment to the original.

It really was Al. I don’t know if you have a short memory but that really was the crux of it.

Led Zeppelin stole the melodies from blues tracks and didn’t credit them, some acts like ‘Snow’ for example, mimicked another culture to the point of parody with an accent and patois that are not his. Those things are bad.

I don’t think that’s the same as The Police using reggae guitar riffs. The UK had an established West Indian community long before The Police started making records. Uptown Ranking by Althea and Donna was the number one single in the UK before The Police released their first single, here they are on Top of The Pops with at least 10m TV viewers. Nobody thought The Police invented that. Even the ‘fun fact’ on this video is Elvis Costello bought the record with his first royalty cheque.

I’m genuinely not playing any ‘white lives matter’ shit here. I get the social inequities but the eventual logic of purity of origin means music never moves on and that includes black music. I’ve mentioned the German electronica influence on hip-hop but also the original rappers played a lot of rock backing tracks. It’s a very fair thing to raise but I think the extremes of the concept are very troubling. It’s essentially like that lambasted 1970s Legion of Superheroes idea where they were told to add a black character and made him a segregationalist.

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DavidM

Al-x wrote:

Again… I am not a militant keyboard sjw and never have been. I am just for proper cultural sharing, not stealing , and giving credit where credit is due.

In 1994 Whitney Houston’s recording of “I Will Always Love You” won twice at the 21st American Music Awards — as the Favorite Pop/Rock Single, and also as the Favorite Soul/R&B Single. Incidentally, that song was originally written by Dolly Parton as a country song for her former partner Porter Waggoner. Sometimes the line between musical genres is blurry, and I think Dolly would be the first to say that Whitney deserves all the credit for the success of her version of that song.

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Rocket, DavidM, Todd, Al-x, garjones, Dave

[Al-x]

njerry wrote:

n 1994 Whitney Houston’s recording of “I Will Always Love You” won twice at the 21st American Music Awards — as the Favorite Pop/Rock Single, and also as the Favorite Soul/R&B Single. Incidentally, that song was originally written by Dolly Parton as a country song for her former partner Porter Waggoner. Sometimes the line between musical genres is blurry, and I think Dolly would be the first to say that Whitney deserves all the credit for the success of her version of that song.

That would be what Gareth was saying about musical exchange and a very good example.

Brian McKnight had a hit love song that was like reading manual instructions (I forgot the title) and there was country music cover of it and that was a hit in the country charts. Some of Lionel Richie’s love songs also had country music covers.  Foo Fighters did a version of “Darlin Nikki” etc.

I have to say that musical exchange involves a mutual respect and acknowledgement.

This has been a joust where we both miss each other because we are talking about two different things: Appreciation and Appropriation.

Dolly Parton did not miss a single royalty check for that song. IIRC, Dolly even used some of the money to help some black neighborhoods. But where is the credit and the royalty/monetary compensation in the instances we discussed?

What is going now and has been is stealing and in some instances a “whitewashing” and erasure of the originals. A moviegoer who doesn’t know better would think that those grinding couples dances started in some Upstate NY country club in 1962, disco started with Italians and not from gay culture, and Bo Derek started cornrow braids. No one has said yet that it was Marty McFly  who started rock and roll. 😂

The Police started out with this punk/reggae fusion sound (a good idea) and I still like their songs. But Sting did have his critics. Elvis Costello blasted him once for his “fake Carribean accent” and Eddie Grant at the time commented a concern that attention is being taken away from the Caribbeans.

All in all, I respect musical exchanges. I like Eminem and so does hip hop overall, but not Vanilla Ice.  I still love Simply Red and “Holding Back the Tears” to this day.

I take it now that you all get what I am saying?

The back row? 😂

 

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

Al-x wrote:

Brian McKnight had a hit love song that was like reading manual instructions (I forgot the title)

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Al-x

Thanks @jrcarter

Dua Lipa has some lawsuits. Or her producers:

This shit is off the hook. Came across it after hearing about it on a podcast. Its not really representative of the whole album but the album really is a magnificent example of pop music.

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garjones, njerry

I have barely listened to anything else after I found this track.

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Uncle Retrospective

Now THIS… This is how you make a cover “your own” while still paying respect.

@davidm

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DavidM, njerry

I like that version, but as I don’t have any idea what the original is I can’t compare

It’s in the title of the video : Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger by Daft Punk.

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Todd

Just knowing the title doesn’t mean I know how it sounds.

And yes I know I could look it up, but life’s too short

I’m aware that Daft Punk were a 90s EDM act, but as the 90s were a musical wasteland to me I doubt I’ve ever knowingly heard their music. I can appreciate parts of the House/EDM genres, but it’s not something I seek out to listen to.

 

 

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Are we only to post covers of songs you know? That’d be tricky.

The Daft Punk original has a really cool “Battle of the Planets” style anime video.

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Todd

[Al-x]

This guy Jarred Jermaine and his YouTube channel. He must have a database of all these music catalogs or something.

Here is another clip this time about Olivia Rodrigo:

There is another clip where it was said that she paid Paramore afterwards.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

garjones wrote:

Are we only to post covers of songs you know?

No of course not. I was apologising to Anders, I mean, username, for not being able to compare the cover to the original, not demanding that he didn’t post it.

I’m sorry if that didn’t come across in my comment

 

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DavidM wrote:

I’m sorry if that didn’t come across in my comment

I got you. No worries.

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DavidM

I posted here about some instances of white entertainers stealing from minorities. But I won’t stop there.

I am very much “equal opportunity” when it comes to not liking famous people.

Here goes:

Beyonce has this lawsuit with side by side video involving her work next to some up and coming entertainers who were yet unknown. It’s been said that some of the producers will scout the clubs and small music scene, look at some ideas and copy it. Maybe it was the producers or the entertainer but that happens.

JLo sang about being “Jenny from the block” while yachting with Affleck. Thing is, her old Bronx neighborhood (Castle Hill) can testify that all she did was get some painting/renovation of a small library room.  Then at the time, the producers gave her some hit songs/tracks that took away from other entertainers so some of the singers like Ashanti at the time, never did get the career that they should have had.

P Diddy (who exploited Biggy Smalls death) was dating JLo, parading her as this trophy gf, was showing off at the clubs. This guy got fed up with it and that shootout came and JLo jumped ship shortly afterwards and got with Affleck.

Then there is Eddie Murphy denying paternity with Scary Spice, Will Smith being a d*ck to the Fresh Prince cast…

Nicki Minaj’s husband got a manslaughter conviction and a rape accusation, with Minaj trying to intimidate the woman survivor. Minaj is from Trinidad and sometimes has this attitude of being better than black Americans etc. Then her “swollen testicles” nonsense regarding the vaccine.

I could go on, but this is mostly about music and not celeb gossip. All this is to say that I don’t like people who pull stunts like this, no matter who they are.

There’s an American rapper … whose name I can’t remember, and even if I could I wouldn’t give him the publicity … who sampled a track by an English band, Mostly Autumn. His rap with extensive use of that sample had several million views on Youtube. The English writer of the original never gave permission for it to be sampled, and never got a penny from those millions of views. He tried talking legal action, but he’s just an unknown songwriter from England and doesn’t have the money to fight the lawyers of a rapper with millions of youtube hits.

I know that Kanye, for example, has made heavy use of samples from English rock bands, but they tend to be well-known bands with big record label representation, and therefore I’m sure Kanye pays for the samples. So I have no argument with that practice. (No moral argument. I might have a big artistic argument )

But how many people are sampling songs you’ve never heard of and getting away without paying fairly for them? I’m willing to bet it’s a lot.

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Al-x

You tend to find the biggest acts, like Kanye, have legal teams that clear samples, some tracks have a very long list of credits as a result. Stolen samples were very common in the early days of rap and dance but seemed to have gone by the late 90s. It’d be sad if they are coming back now the music scene is less centralised.

That just brought to mind a video I saw the other day with an Irish Youtuber sharing her earnings, and that a 1m view video only paid about $3000. While nothing justifies lack of credit or payment the vastly reduced revenue from streaming over physical sales may be why it could creep back in.

 

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DavidM

Sampling music can be seen as “collage” done music style.

I remember the ones who did the Monkees song “Mary Mary” suing Run DMC for sampling the hook. The early days of rap.

In non rap: The Verve sampling the Rolling Stones in doing “Bittersweet Symphony”.

This link about Halsey and her label says a lot about the tie in with social media, making a viral media splash first before a release:

Halsey Says Label Won’t Release New Song Without Viral TikTok: “They Are Doing This To Basically Every Artist”

It is the norm these days.

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DavidM, Todd

40 years ago they would have been complaining that the label wouldn’t release their single without an MTV-friendly video. It’s not a new problem, it’s just an old problem moved to a new platform.

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Bruce, Al-x, Todd, garjones, Dave

DavidM wrote:

40 years ago they would have been complaining that the label wouldn’t release their single without an MTV-friendly video. It’s not a new problem, it’s just an old problem moved to a new platform.

Exactly

It is show business. A person in the public eye has to make a “media splash” to hook in everyone, whether it is a celeb wearing something revealing, a photo shoot, twerking at a show, a sex tape, whatever. Anything to stay relevant.

Al-x wrote:

A person in the public eye has to make a “media splash” to hook in everyone, whether it is a celeb wearing something revealing, a photo shoot, twerking at a show, a sex tape, whatever. Anything to stay relevant.

Except it’s also a load of bullshit as the best selling artists in recent times, Adele and Taylor Swift, did none of those things. Paris Hilton did do the sex tape and other promotional nonsense and was dropped after 1 album and 3 singles as she was talentless.

Record companies are very often wrong. History records their nonsense.

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DavidM, Dave

I get what is being said. As for it being complete bovine excrement…

Adele never did photo shoots to compete with the pop tarts. She was always in her own separate category, but now that she shed a lot of pounds…

Taylor Swift was always in the public eye with all of her dating and being seen with all these boy toy types that she composes in her songs.

As Halsey says “They are doing it to almost every artist” to get the buzzword beforehand to boost the sales.

Al-x wrote:

She was always in her own separate category, but now that she shed a lot of pounds…

What about it? She’s slimmer but she’s not doing sex tapes or twerking. Your inference seems to be that being attractive is selling out somehow, Jimi Hendrix was attractive and often shot with his shirt open, was he selling sex over talent?

I think you’ve completely missed my point. Yes the tabloids will follow Swift’s dating choices but they do that for everyone, they were writing about John Lennon and Yoko Ono or Chrissie Hynde and Jim Kerr. That’s a whole world away from selling the dating story first to get a record sold.

It is better to actually just enjoy the music than get too obsessed by this Hello magazine nonsense.

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DavidM, njerry, Dave

OK A regroup…

I said that Adele was in her own category as a singer and never did compete with the pop tarts by appearing in magazines like Katy Perry in Esquire for example. She never really had to do that to get attention to her records.

I wasn’t inferring that being attractive is selling out. As far as Adele goes since she shed weight, she did appear in some top with the Jamaican flag design and these Bantu knots at some Caribbean celebration years ago. Lately, she has been seen courtside at basketball games with this sports agent and she has been enjoying herself since her divorce.

You mentioned Hendrix, Lennon, Chrissy Hynde, and them being seen here and there back in the day.

Now you have to admit that media coverage is much bigger now. Taylor Swift may not be known for twerking like Miley, but she did have that Kanye incident and got known more outside of her initial country roots and it helped her in making the transition to the pop charts. And being seen with all the young hot guys over the years and putting in her dating experience into her songs. Not exactly a specific viral media splash, but overall.

Marketing strategies…

“Completely missing my point” …. like a joust where the two miss each other. 🤣

Hello magazine… I see it here on newstands, but it isn’t one of the big celeb gossip magazines in the US.

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DavidM

Not a new story, it happens every year, but once again we see that women are second-rate citizens in the music industry:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-61512053

garjones wrote:

What about it? She’s slimmer but she’s not doing sex tapes or twerking. Your inference seems to be that being attractive is selling out somehow, Jimi Hendrix was attractive and often shot with his shirt open, was he selling sex over talent?

She’s over 20, obviously it’s time she was put out to pasture.

Comparing Swift to Hendrix is totally unfair, because Hendrix is a man and as such he wasn’t made exclusively for older men to sexualize. Unlike, you know…

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garjones

Adele is slim now, she did covers for music mags for years but now they are provocative, she’s really selling sex over a career that was based around an incredible singing voice. She appeared near a Jamaican flag once which is all about cultural appropriation and not that she was raised in a multicultural society where she has hung around with West Indian people all her life from school as the UK isn’t as segregated as the US and has loved and promoted their music consistently for a decade.

That she never attended a Grenfell memorial with Stormzy because they are good friends and she cares, it must have been for Tik-Tok and a headline in EW or something, as ‘Hello’ is the exact same shit but not popular in the USA.

We must give preference of opinion to the one handed commentators.

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DavidM

[Al-x]

garjones wrote:

Adele is slim now, she did covers for music mags for years but now they are provocative, she’s really selling sex over a career that was based around an incredible singing voice. She appeared near a Jamaican flag once which is all about cultural appropriation and not that she was raised in a multicultural society where she has hung around with West Indian people all her life from school as the UK isn’t as segregated as the US and has loved and promoted their music consistently for a decade.

That she never attended a Grenfell memorial with Stormzy because they are good friends and she cares, it must have been for Tik-Tok and a headline in EW or something, as ‘Hello’ is the exact same shit but not popular in the USA.

We must give preference of opinion to the one handed commentators.

What is all this?

My posting was originally what Halsey said was getting to be a norm for all the music artists namely a viral media splash.

(The record companies are wrong in insisting that it is a necessity.)

Then we got to Taylor Swift and Adele and now we have all this about… Adele… and not Taylor anymore.

“One handed commentators”…

 

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

I’m teasing Al but you do drop these non-sequiturs about someone losing weight or appearing with a flag and it seems up to the rest of us to interpret what that means. To me it seems to have nothing to do with having to get a viral Tik-Tok clip.

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garjones wrote:

We must give preference of opinion to the one handed commentators.

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Todd, garjones

garjones wrote:

I’m teasing Al but you do drop these non-sequiturs about someone losing weight or appearing with a flag and it seems up to the rest of us to interpret what that means. To me it seems to have nothing to do with having to get a viral Tik-Tok clip.

That was one of the pictures of her at that time. And my posting was a non sequiter.

“Interpret what it means”
Then A clarification:

I guess we have to get into the matter of:

Was Adele’s image and her music promoted like the pop tarts? I always saw her as doing her own thing. To me, she was never like Ariana Grande, Selena Gomez, Katy Perry etc.

There was 60 Minutes interview with her and the reporter even mentioned the difference between between her and the other women entertainers.

She isn’t a “pop tart” singing their bubble gum songs, and she never had to strip on TV or a magazine to sell records.

You did say some things about her being close to the Caribbeans and that’s why there wasn’t a big backlash over her top and Bantu style.

I remember her accepting the Grammy and practically being apologetic about it, talking onstage to Beyoncé about her “Lemonade” album.

I like Adele. Always did.

Al-x wrote:

There was 60 Minutes interview with her and the reporter even mentioned the difference between between her and the other women entertainers.

This in itself is a problem. The reporter mentioning it at all implies that Adele *does* have an image — it’s an image of “not looking like other pop stars”. There were probably as many column inches about “Adele doesn’t look like other pop stars” as there were about her songs. Adele was promoted on the back of not having a *conventional* image, not on having *no* image. At the end of the day, pop is all image, and it always has been. Music is secondary, and always has been.

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Al-x

[Al-x]

DavidM wrote:

Al-x wrote:

There was 60 Minutes interview with her and the reporter even mentioned the difference between between her and the other women entertainers.

This in itself is a problem. The reporter mentioning it at all implies that Adele *does* have an image — it’s an image of “not looking like other pop stars”. There were probably as many column inches about “Adele doesn’t look like other pop stars” as there were about her songs. Adele was promoted on the back of not having a *conventional* image, not on having *no* image. At the end of the day, pop is all image, and it always has been. Music is secondary, and always has been.

Here is just 30 seconds of her keeping it all real to Anderson Cooper:

https://youtu.be/rH3za3VGxec

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

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DavidM

[DavidM]

She seems like a genuine person, I think she really believes she stands on the strength of her songs alone.

But I think she’s deluding herself. She’s been put where she is by image makers at her record label, who latched on to her because she’s “different”, and that gives them a new angle to sell.

Note – that doesn’t mean her music is bad or has no worth. Look at the Beatles. They wrote some pretty good tunes and I think most people would agree their music had worth. But they got where they were on image first and foremost. Look at the Shea Stadium film, and it’s pretty obvious that their “fans” didn’t care about listening to their music.

 

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by DavidM.

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Al-x

There’s an argument that every artist uses image to a degree, they are all marketed, there is only capitalist music really. Even Daft Punk who never reveal their faces or speak, the geeky robot thing sells their brand. The Cure and Iron Maiden had images that I’d argue have been emulated across the years by more kids than any pop act since The Beatles. Robert Smith’s look has survived on the high street for 40 years without a gap.

There are certain uniforms, your folk singer will wear a floaty dress because that’s what’s expected and not a studded collar and a mohawk. ‘Serious artist’ is an image in itself that attracts its own audience.

Then there’s the unquantifiable element of attractiveness. You do get your boy and girl bands that are sold primarily on looks for teenage hormones but there’s an element that reflects back on the audience. The reason I picked up on Al with his “she lost the pounds” comment is it read to me that was a sign of her ‘sexing up’ her image but unless she radically changes her marketing style it actually means he’s finding her more attractive, the change in perception is at his side.

This is my argument with Taylor Swift to a degree, she is very attractive, her tall and slim frame is one we are used to with fashion models but she can’t really help that. Unless we’re puritans demanding she wear a sack and not just wear what any normal young woman would, then she’s going to have sex appeal by default without twerking or sitting naked on a wrecking ball.

On top of that women are allowed to have agency over their sexuality, just as Jim Morrison or Robert Plant rarely wore a shirt when they were in good shape. A notable example is Florence Welch, she sold her records in very high numbers on the back of being a Kate Bush style singer songwriter happy to switch genres and styles. With no commercial need she directed her own video where she appears topless (one for Al to Google) where you’d only assume she thought it was artistically what she wanted for that particular piece of art and we don’t really have a right to tell her she can’t.

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DavidM, Al-x

@garjones … fellow:

What? Me Google someone topless? Heavens no!

You picked up on my passing statement about her losing the pounds…
I have to shed (we pretty much all do) because of this pandemic.

We could talk about male performers on stage being fully clothed while the
women pop entertainers for the most part have to show more skin and
project their sexuality that way.

I said before that we were in a joust and kept missing each other.
If you want to get back into it for closure (its up to you) maybe
we could define cultural appreciation as opposed to the definition of
cultural appropriation.

Al-x wrote:

If you want to get back into it for closure (its up to you) maybe we could define cultural appreciation as opposed to the definition of cultural appropriation.

I don’t even know what that means.

I’ve never denied cultural appropriation but it is a very dangerous game to me to define it very broadly when cultural exchange is what will elevate us a global society. It very much runs the risk of promoting segregation, it is very troubling to me as a parent of mixed race children that it denies them the ability to embrace equally both sides, which is my desire. They won’t pass the purity test. This is not something I approach with levity, it’s a real thing, if we follow this concept to its core then they can’t do anything Asian, they can only embrace their caucasian side.

While I 100% appreciate and understand the massive power imbalance it also logically cannot be sustained as only one-sided. If Bo Derek can’t have cornrows then it is cultural appropriation in the end for an African American to straighten their hair or wear a suit. If we want to strictly say on a principle you cannot use any element of another culture without it being theft.

My stance is very consistent, cultural exchange crosses over to appropriation when it is either (or both) disrespectful or gives no acknowledgement of origin. I have taken part in a successful campaign against the Exeter Chiefs rugby team using Native American branding they don’t understand and is based on cliche and is disrespectful. I inherently cannot buy into the idea that someone like Adele, who grew up in a multicultural area and school, is forced to reject all she grew up with even though her black friends support it.

That is very bad for our progression as a society.

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DavidM, Dave

Al-x wrote:

We could talk about male performers on stage being fully clothed

This is inherently untrue.

 

You aren’t seeing these artists were selling sex appeal because you are a heterosexual male, as am I, but they are.

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Todd, DavidM

garjones wrote:

you are a heterosexual male, as am I,

I think your latest Google image search history suggests different.

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garjones

garjones wrote:

Al-x wrote:

We could talk about male performers on stage being fully clothed

This is inherently untrue.

 

You aren’t seeing these artists were selling sex appeal because you are a heterosexual male, as am I, but they are.

I find it offensive you posting this many images of shirtless men on stage WITHOUT giving us an image of Iggy Pop. Man’s practically allergic to shirts!

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Todd

Actually I meant more recent events….

There was a concert with Jay Z and his wife Beyonce on the same stage together

and you can guess the rest as to who wore more etc.

As for the cultural postings…

I understand a little more now where you are coming from given what you said about the rugby team.

 

Al-x wrote:

Actually I meant more recent events….

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Todd, Al-x

I was going to post something about music here, but I guess I’m in the wrong thread…

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Todd

Well lets see…

All the pictures in that posting are over 20 years old.

I had in mind much more recent acts and entertainers as compared to their female counterparts.

I need a picture of Anders topless or this thread is worthless.

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Al-x wrote:

All the pictures in that posting are over 20 years old.

That was to emphasise they have always been there and with classic artists. If you want another set of yummy pics here we go:

 

Also just for fun I had a look for Jay-Z and it became pretty obvious why he kept covered on stage (the guy is not quite in ‘dating shape’).

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Todd

Been enjoying this song a great deal lately:

garjones wrote:

Also just for fun I had a look for Jay-Z and it became pretty obvious why he kept covered on stage (the guy is not quite in ‘dating shape’).

So… You remember that?  🤣 Well, a lot has come to my attention about ‘dating shape” which I might or might not into in that thread. There is no ideal masculine build that will have all the ladies chasing after you Beatlemania style. That is indeed bovine excrement. I only said those because the general consensus is most don’t like the morbidly obese and flabby look but I digress and this is not the thread for that.

Be the “happening kind of guy.”

You posted pics of male entertainers that are much more recent and not from 60 years ago. Progress.

The general view though is that the female pop tarts are on stage these days and what they wear (I won’t flood this with all the “booty” pics … so relax!) while the males don’t do so nearly as much and don’t necessarily have to. Are you debating that? Then you would have to argue with all who say that, and definitely not just me who briefly pointed it out.

I read your posting on the cultural stuff. You are concerned that it would lead to a slippery slope, while I am about the other side being a little p*ssed at outright stealing and flagrant desecrating of disrespect of what others value. And it is NOT only about whites and blacks.

Again… A joust and we miss each other.

I’ll get into it briefly later on after I have done some things. Busy day…

Al-x wrote:

Are you debating that?

Yes I am.

I mean ‘pop tarts’ is inherently a problematic term. ‘Tart’ is a synonym for sexually promiscuous, a concept often lauded when men do it. If you leave that behind then I see zero difference between Stormzy on stage topless with his six pack and underwear showing and Ariana Grande wearing a short skirt.

I don’t see why we should call them ‘tarts’ and not call BTS ‘gigolos’ for stripping off to their kacks on stage.

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DavidM

Oh, the blatant sexist is saying blatantly sexist shit! The surprise! Hey @al-x, have you considered joining some incel forum! 4Chan would love your input.

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Rocket

Al-x wrote:

You are concerned that it would lead to a slippery slope, while I am about the other side being a little p*ssed at outright stealing and flagrant desecrating of disrespect of what others value. And it is NOT only about whites and blacks.

Did you not understand what I was saying?

Stealing and disrespect were my focus but no exchange ever is in truth more frightening than never sharing.

A segregated cultural purity society basically destroys the lives of my children. I’m not going to endorse that.

[Al-x]

@anders

Let’s see… Gareth objected to the usage of the term “pop tart” AND he backed it up his rebuttal with reasoning and some proof.

You on the other hand, NEVER give anything more than name calling and acting tough. No real substance and everyone here can see that.

————————————–

https://www.thedailybeast.com/pop-tarts

@gareth… You said that stealing and disrespect were your focus? I never said anything about “no exchange ever”. I always  said that proper acknowledgement should be there when there is an exchange and it should not be so one sided.

I was always talking from the standpoint of the US. It is all tied to the situation of the dominant people feeling they can do whatever they want,
and feel entitled to take anything from the other people that were subjugated. They are the ones who set the boundaries and feel the others can’t set boundaries and tell them “stay in your lane”.

Remember that story of that teen girl who wore that Asian dress (qipao) to her prom? Some Asian women objected to it on Twitter saying “My culture is not your prom dress.” They were trying to “gatekeep” its use to make sure that it wasn’t used as a gimmick. On a more recent setting, now on TikTok, American teens are using henna for these temporary hand tattoos as a gimmick and that upset some in India who are online. Some Americans  even used it on the face and hurt themselves. (Then again they never cared to listen to Indian people about the proper use).

In the case of Gwen Stefani, there is video of her alleged use of Indian facial designs as a gimmick in her videos, then there was something about how she had these Asian women following her in some videos and that got a backlash.

As for Bo Derek in 10 wearing cornrows, it is not so much that she did it in the movie,  but the way people gave her all this attention as if she was the first one, so groundbreaking, so exotic. Basically, she got credit and accolades for having the same cornrows that black women were teased at and called “ghetto” for decades. Like that Nicki Minaj video snippet I posted before.  As for men wearing dresses, Kurt Cobain, Scott Weiland, (even Jim Ohara 😂) , not to forget all the gays and trans community etc. so why was everyone acting as if Harry Styles was the first one to do it?

It is a frustration with society and it goes beyond entertainment. Women and minorities have complained that at office staff meetings,
the ideas they say are given a shrug, then about 20 minutes later, a colleague (usually a white male) pretty much repeats what was said and he
gets practically a standing ovation and all the credit. That is very frustrating.

This Middle Eastern woman said was picked on for years while growing up being called a “terrorist” after 9/11. But now that the Kardashians and others have altered their looks (to no longer look “plain”), everyone looks at her and all of a sudden now she is considered “white”. It was never that she tried to look like the Kardashians and others but the Kardashians etc. have been altering themselves trying to look like her. Never mind all the time that black and Hispanic women were teased at for big lips and a big backside and now it has been such a trendy thing.

I can go on, but I never said no exchange. I just said for it not to be outright stealing.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

Man, this thread has taken a turn towards the hot buttered bullshit end of the scale.

I’ve noticed my listening has recently been skewed towards the female end of the musical spectrum. No real reason for it, its just what I’ve been digging. Fuck all to do with the artists shaking their arses on social media.

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Uncle Retrospective

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DavidM

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DavidM

Man, this thread has taken a turn towards the hot buttered bullshit end of the scale.

No shit. I’m still waiting for my picture of topless Anders.

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Todd wrote:

No shit. I’m still waiting for my picture of topless Anders.

FINE

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Rocket, Uncle Retrospective, Sean Robinson, Dave, Bruce, Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Todd wrote:

No shit. I’m still waiting for my picture of topless Anders.

FINE

THANK YOU.

Now I can masturbate.

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Anonymous wrote:

Todd wrote:

No shit. I’m still waiting for my picture of topless Anders.

FINE

What a pop tart.

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Todd

Dave wrote:

What a pop tart.

If you want to talk dirty, it’s going to cost you extra.

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Todd, njerry

Bruce wrote:

I’ve noticed my listening has recently been skewed towards the female end of the musical spectrum. No real reason for it, its just what I’ve been digging. Fuck all to do with the artists shaking their arses on social media.

I’ve found the same happened to me (to the extent that it’s a running joke on certain music forums). I find I like contemporary female voices better than I like contemporary male voices. I have a number of theories for this:

1. I’ve always preferred female voices, but in the past the genres I liked were dominated by males so my favourites were all male, and in the 21st century that disparity has been addressed.

2. Contemporary male rock singers objectively don’t sing as well as the singers of the 70s, but somehow (I don’t have an explanation for how), females still understand what a rock singer should sound like.

3. I’m completely shallow and it’s totally about shaking their arses on social media.

I haven’t yet decided which reason is correct

 

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Bruce

I also have been drawn to female artists during the last 2.5 years (wonder if it’s COVID-related?), in various genres. Among current favorites:

And just to show I haven’t completely given up on male artists, there’s this:

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Andrew, Bruce, Todd, DavidM

Oh well if we’re giving examples, then this is the last singer I saw live:

(Not that specific performance, though I was at that too, last year.)

And this the the next singer I will see live:

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Bruce, njerry

I saw Gary Numan live last week, and both this time and last time he’s had a female singer as the opening act and they’ve both been fantastic. In 2019 it was Kanga:

And this time it was I Speak Machine:

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Uncle Retrospective, Bruce, Todd, njerry, DavidM

Almost every single Röyksopp collaboration with a female artist is superior to their collabs with male artists. The exception being the collaboration with Jamie Irrepressibles on I Had This Thing which is totally on the level of their Robyn and Susanne Sundfør collabs.

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Bruce, Todd, njerry, DavidM

[Uncle Retrospective]

It’s a new month so it time for my blog round up.

We have all kinds of dance music, the bast band to come out of Dundalk and the filthy taint of jazz.

 

May Musical round up 2022

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by Uncle Retrospective.

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Great instrumental cover:

A candid interview about the music industry, where the money really is made at for the artist:

https://thatgrapejuice.net/2022/04/chloe-bailey-gets-candid-the-music-industry-artists-dont-make-lot-money/?fbclid=IwAR2_0dZLopn5nairkCVGFHJYL1sEYUgpWe-6YLjEQcz9FdKLx5AFfZKPP0M&fs=e&s=cl

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Todd

A great video on the invention of electronic dance music. Electronic music existed in the 1970s and so did dance music in the form of orchestrated disco. This is the moment of inspiration when they met, and sorry to Al but it was a mixed race baby.

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Rocket, lorcan_nagle, Todd, DavidM, njerry

garjones wrote:

his is the moment of inspiration when they met, and sorry to Al but it was a mixed race baby.

@garjones… fellow

Beating a dead horse? 🤣

I always understood hybrid creations of music.
And you got the points from the videos of the hijacking, money grab, desecration, and so on.

I thought we were good on all of that.
Anything left that needs to be cleared up?

Ok…

Anyone think that 90s alternative music (not just Nirvana and Pearl Jam) will have some nostalgic comeback?

And some of the 80s alternative for that matter?

Al-x wrote:

Ok…

Anyone think that 90s alternative music (not just Nirvana and Pearl Jam) will have some nostalgic comeback?

And some of the 80s alternative for that matter?

I’m sure they will, if they haven’t already. When a generation gets to a certain age, they start feeling nostalgic. Listening to old music is a way to reconnect to their youth. Whatever they liked and enjoyed when they were young is what they will seek out. It’s why singers and groups still tour, long after their peak. They still have fans who are willing to pay to see them. The venues may be a lot smaller than their heyday, but they still have a dedicated audience.

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Al-x

In the US, music from every decade of the rock & roll era has returned and is played on “oldies” and “classic rock” radio stations; and you can find numerous SiriusXM stations and Spotify playlists devoted exclusively to music from those decades.

Kate Bush’s 1985 song “Running Up That Hill” became the #1 purchased song on iTunes recently when it was highlighted in the current season of STRANGER THINGS, and the soundtrack to the 1986 film TOP GUN is also having a resurgence due to the film’s sequel. Whether it’s nostalgia or younger people discovering older songs through movies and television, there is absolutely no reason to think that 80s and 90s music will fade away.

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Todd

njerry wrote:

Kate Bush’s 1985 song “Running Up That Hill” became the #1 purchased song on iTunes recently when it was highlighted in the current season of STRANGER THINGS, and the soundtrack to the 1986 film TOP GUN is also having a resurgence due to the film’s sequel. Whether it’s nostalgia or younger people discovering older songs through movies and television, there is absolutely no reason to think that 80s and 90s music will fade away.

Same with the soundtrack from “Euphoria”. The show plays a lot of old songs that are before the time of the main viewers and they all go online to check it out.

Last year, Christel and I went to a show that had a bunch of 1980’s artists, with the headlining act being A Flock of Seagulls.

The venue had a capacity of 2,750 and it was mostly full. The various acts alone couldn’t fill the space but as part of a billing where each sang there 2-3 biggest hits, they had a great draw.

We’ve seen LeAnne Rimes, Dwight Yoakam, and others here. Long past being able to sell out larger venues, they probably make a comfortable living touring smaller theaters.

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DavidM, Al-x

Todd wrote:

Last year, Christel and I went to a show that had a bunch of 1980’s artists, with the headlining act being A Flock of Seagulls.

Wow! The memories…

How were the Flock of Seagulls?

Better yet, how about a very brief rundown of the acts?

Todd wrote:

The venue had a capacity of 2,750 and it was mostly full. The various acts alone couldn’t fill the space but as part of a billing where each sang there 2-3 biggest hits, they had a great draw.

I’ve seen a lot of that being advertised in the UK too. 80s nostalgia package tours are definitely a thing, and have been for some years.

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Todd

This is the musician I will be seeing live this week, Maya Youssef:

garjones wrote:

A great video on the invention of electronic dance music. Electronic music existed in the 1970s and so did dance music in the form of orchestrated disco. This is the moment of inspiration when they met, and sorry to Al but it was a mixed race baby.

That channel is fantastic, a great mix of deep dives by turns into subgenres and individual artists.

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garjones

The nostalgia thing is interesting. I don’t think it is just that.

We’ll start with my assertion that no new genre of music has really been invented this century, similarly to fashion we exhausted it all between 1960 and 2000. It is all just riffs on what was done before. Georgio Moroder spoke of his ‘sound of the future’ which was true then but it is still one of the ‘sounds of today’ over 40 years on.

Added to that how kids now get introduced to songs is very different. As a kid it was all Top Of The Pops playing the latest chart hits, in the US they had Casey Kasem doing the same with his top 40 countdown. Even middle of the road talk shows played almost exclusively new acts with new singles.

Now the chart is mostly irrelevant, music gets introduced via random acts like Kate Bush being used in Stranger Things. I have kids aged 11 and 13 so speak to how I see it for them. They get a lot through films, The Greatest Showman and Encanto songs have been very popular, my son got into Axel-F recently via a Minecraft thing, at roughly the same age I got into it. We like to tease David Meadows about being stuck in the past but he 100% listens to more new music, albeit in his favourite genres, than teenagers do.

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Al-x, Todd, DavidM

The Kate Bush thing is interesting. If she’s charting again, it’s got to be young people buying (streaming) it, it’s not just our age groups buying it through nostalgia. Because we already know the song, we’ve maybe already got it on cd/vinyl, but we’re not going to go out and start streaming it just because it’s suddenly on TV. Kids on the other hand have just discovered something “new” and they’re going to be the group driving its current sales.

Which in terms of relative song age is the equivalent of me buying Vera Lynn albums in 1980, and I can guarantee that neither I nor any of my peers did that. It would be unthinkably uncool.

So something has changed in youth behaviour.

Al-x wrote:

Todd wrote:

Last year, Christel and I went to a show that had a bunch of 1980’s artists, with the headlining act being A Flock of Seagulls.

Wow! The memories…

How were the Flock of Seagulls?

Better yet, how about a very brief rundown of the acts?

I don’t remember who all performed at that specific show. It is part of the Lost 80s Live Tour. There is some rotation on who all performs at what location.

Here are the artists associated with the tour: https://lost80slive.com/artist/

Check the schedule, they may be coming to a venue near you: https://lost80slive.com/event/

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Al-x

DavidM wrote:

The Kate Bush thing is interesting. If she’s charting again, it’s got to be young people buying (streaming) it, it’s not just our age groups buying it through nostalgia. Because we already know the song, we’ve maybe already got it on cd/vinyl, but we’re not going to go out and start streaming it just because it’s suddenly on TV. Kids on the other hand have just discovered something “new” and they’re going to be the group driving its current sales.

Which in terms of relative song age is the equivalent of me buying Vera Lynn albums in 1980, and I can guarantee that neither I nor any of my peers did that. It would be unthinkably uncool.

So something has changed in youth behaviour.

I think it’s partly explained by the fact that chart positions are calculated somewhat differently now, given that streams are taken into account.

I don’t think streaming behaviour is quite as active a choice (and financial commitment) as going out and buying a record used to be – people might all choose to listen to something like this on a bit of a whim, driven by a TV show, whereas they might not feel so strongly about it that they would go out and buy the record.

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DavidM

DavidM wrote:

The Kate Bush thing is interesting. If she’s charting again, it’s got to be young people buying (streaming) it, it’s not just our age groups buying it through nostalgia.

It is.

Maybe not exclusively, as streaming is now counted there will be some who remember the song fondly from 1985 and call it up again but the dozens of Youtube review videos appearing from under 30s suggests it is far more than that.

The internet has massively changed the entire business of music, ‘sales’ are rare and streaming pays shit while live performance prices have gone way ahead of inflation. Kate Bush herself who famously never went on tour after her first one as a teenager, probably happily sitting on royalties for ages, did her second one in 2019, 40 years after the first.

This is a big driver of the 80s (or even 90s and 2000s) ‘revival’ stuff. Almost anyone with any name recognition at all can sell out a theatre of a couple of thousand, team up with others if they can’t and make a decent amount. Even at their peak Flock of Seagulls were hardly headline stars, most pop fans even of that era couldn’t name past their biggest hit.

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