Music: What Are You Listening To?

Topic

If music be the food of love, let’s eat it.

Replies

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Todd, njerry

Rocket wrote:

Andrew, have you seen Purple Rain?

No, I haven’t – it really seems like something for fans, and something really of and for the time it was released.

Recommended to me on YouTube:

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Todd

There is a new band of four young girls (ages 10-16) called the Linda Lindas (cute name imho). They have appeared on late night TV, did a few tracks for some movie, and so on.

https://thelindalindas.wixsite.com/rock

If you like you can also check them out on YouTube, Wiki, the Google engine, etc.

They are quite young, but if they progress and evolve musically, they could be like the Breeders or Veruca Salt.

Figured I’d put this here, but it could go in the Independent comic thread.

Anthrax: Among the Living (OGN) goes on sale July 6th – warning, Gamesradar/Newsarama link

Fuck, I used to love that album. I’m still best friends with many that agree.
Definitely be one to listen when we all get back to partying.

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Bruce

They’re also doing a restrospective video series on Youtube for their 40th…

Also, never loved Among the Living, but I do listen regularly to Volume 8.

I’m surprised Alex Ross ain’t involved with the OGN somehow, given he’s done many album covers for them.

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Sean Robinson

Tangentially music related and UK centric:

Presenter Shaun Keaveny to leave BBC Radio 6 Music

Delighted at this. His repeated jokes, shite patter, and general radio mannerisms get right on my tits. Afternoon listening on 6 Music might actually be bearable again soon…

Andrew wrote:

Rocket wrote:
Andrew, have you seen Purple Rain?

No, I haven’t –

You poor soul you…

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Andrew

Jon wrote:

Also, never loved Among the Living, but I do listen regularly to Volume 8.

I prefer Stomp 442 as a John Bush era Anthrax album. Volume 8 just doesn’t sound very Anthrax-y. That said I’d take any of either the Joey Beladona eras stuff over it any day.

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Sean Robinson

That said Only is a fucking belter of a tune.

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Uncle Retrospective, Sean Robinson

Well, what can I say, I’ve always been a fan of Bush myself… =P

No but seriously, I prefer John Bush as a vocalist in general. The Armored Saint’s albums from Revelations & on, I love them, the old stuff not so much ’cause it’s VERY dated.

But anyhow, yeah I know Volume 8 sounds very different and that’s why I like it, plus there’s other personal reasons, but yeah, to me that a top 10 album ever. But hey, I’m the kind of guy who absolutely preferes Load over Master of Puppets

Oh and yeah, Sound of White Noise is a killer album, I just wish it had better production ’cause it sounds a bit too 90’s at this point.

Jon wrote:

I’m the kind of guy who absolutely preferes Load over Master of Puppets

 

You sir, are a monster

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Dave, Sean Robinson, Todd

Bear McCreary Releasing Battlestar Galactica Live Album

So Say We All: Battlestar Galactica: All Along the Watchtower – youtube link

One of the best things about Syfy’s reboot of Battlestar Galactica was its selection of then-rookie composer Bear McCreary, who worked with Richard Gibbs to come up with a unique, spartan sound that broke away from the traditional orchestral scores that most science fiction films and TV shows feature.

Towards the end of the series, McCreary embarked on a live musical tour that showcased this work, and this week, he’s releasing an album of recordings from that concert series.

io9 broke the news in an interview with the composer, covering everything from the popularity of the concerts, how his work on Battlestar Galactica jumpstarted his career, how he juggles the numerous projects that he’s worked on in the years since, and a bit more.

Along with the interview, io9 debuted the clip above from one of the concerts, in which Katee Sackhoff (who played Starbuck) recreated one of the scenes from later in the series: a key moment in the when she played a rendition of “All Along the Watchtower” on the piano.

McCreary described the scene:

I always thought it would be a blast to have Katee come and recreate that [scene] in a live performance. She was of course very nervous. She’s not a pianist. She hasn’t taken piano lessons, but she was such a great sport, though. I told her, “Look, don’t practice, don’t be nervous. Let’s just recreate that scene! I will play this sort of figurative role of this other character who sat next to you and I’ll teach you the notes in front of everybody. And then the band will kick in and support you in the way that the score did during that scene.”

The moment is a really cool one, and the clip captures the incredible energy that McCreary and his musicians brought to their lives shows.

McCreary wrote a bit about the album on his own site, noting that after a hiatus from touring, he had begun to plan a tour that would have started in 2020, had the COVID-19 pandemic not upended the entertainment industry:

I cracked open the custom concert arrangements I had done each year and realized how distinct they had become. Over the years, each track gradually morphed from being an instrumental cue designed to support narrative to being a song that stood on its own. I realized my favorite version of most tracks was not the recording that had been released on soundtrack albums, but the rock concert arrangement I had crafted.

The album versions have been heard by millions, and yet these live versions had only been experienced by a few thousand, over a decade ago. I decided to finally complete the Battlestar Galactica live album I had always dreamed of. With most of the hard drives long lost, I meticulously rebuilt each rock arrangement from scratch and got the band back together in a recording studio to recapture the magic.

The album will be released on June 4th from Sparks & Shadows on various streaming services, and signed copies will be available a couple of days later from La-La Land Records.

Here’s the full track list:

A Distant Sadness
Prelude To War
Baltar’s Dream
Roslin and Adama
Apocalypse
Fight Night
Something Dark Is Coming
Wander My Friends
Lords Of Kobol
Storming New Caprica
Heeding The Call
All Along The Watchtower
Colonial Anthem / Black Market

so, since we were talking about Anthrax…

My first Anthrax concert was March 11th, 1988 opening for Kiss.

Clip
Some people still remember Kiss, but most don’t really care. Of the 4,800 or so that saw their show at the Pacific Coliseum last Friday (March 11) many were there to see the opening act, an up-and-coming metal band called Anthrax. About half as old as the members of Kiss, Anthrax put on a lively show that had the hard-core headbangers up front going wild. The band delivered theme music for a nuclear holocaust, slipping in an interesting (but highly rude) rap song, and getting back to their punk roots with the Sex Pistols’ “God Save the Queen”.

We had a pretty good group, some had girlfriends (who were very into it) and we’re into double digits, but we’re in the stands with a seat (most of us figured “floor” (no seats, free-for-all), but the organizer of this couldn’t keep the group together otherwise.
Anyways, we wouldn’t know it at the time, but we’re the only people standing and rocking (heavy as fuck) anywhere near us for Anthrax.

Brad starts hitting my right arm during the show and pointing to someone at the aisle (end of row).
I stick my hand out ready to shake like I’m meeting somebody. He says “Sean?” I say “Yeah!”
“You ready?” “Huh?” “You and 3 friends go backstage and meet Anthrax, right?”
He’s confused by my confusion, but I zone in and take advantage of this mistake.
I grab Brad, Kevin, and Owen (bit of an argument later with those that missed out).

Basically, the guy got the right section, wrong aisle, and I had the right name.
Why bother checking numbers when these mofo’s are easy to spot a million miles away.

Seriously, as we left the seats we noticed our side of the arena was seriously lacking.
Sunk in the next day that Joey Belladonna’s shout out and point was us (not joking).

So, we met Anthrax. Wow, that’s some heavy New York accents.
They could barely understand us, and a question like “where’d you get your shorts?” was met with:
“Shawts? Shawts?” and a look of confusion every time we said “Shorts”.
One said, “they mean your Jams!” and we all had a laugh.

Not a lot of shwag or freebies, but we got the backs of our Stormriders signed.
Hated the Levi’s jean jackets. These were Lee Stormriders, jean jackets with the inside lining, personalized with the ‘mickey pocket’ you cut yourself.
For the young – Jean Jacket

clip

Canadian tuxedo
A “Canadian tuxedo” is a colloquial term for wearing a jean shirt or denim jacket with jeans.[18] The term reportedly originated in 1951 after Bing Crosby was refused entry to a hotel in Vancouver, British Columbia because he was wearing a denim top and denim bottoms.[18][19] After learning of the incident, Levi Strauss & Co. designed a tuxedo made entirely of denim for Crosby as a publicity stunt.[18]

Despite its name, the “Canadian tuxedo” is not a specifically Canadian style, but is also closely correlated with images in American pop culture, such as the Marlboro Man.[20]

The Crosby incident has been credited with helping to spur the evolution of denim from blue collar work wear into a fashion staple;[21] however, the popularity of the full “Canadian tuxedo” look has varied, being accepted as stylish and on trend at some times and as a fashion faux pas at others.[21] Some fashion stylists have asserted that the look works better if the jeans and the jacket are different colours than it does if they’re the same shade.[22] The “Canadian tuxedo” has also sometimes been interpreted as including a flannel shirt under the jacket,[23] although this is not a universal definition.

The Canadian tuxedo achieved a “pop cultural peak” in 2001 when Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake wore the combination to that year’s American Music Awards.[18][24][19] In 2016 Prime Minister of Canada Justin Trudeau wore a “Canadian tuxedo” to a concert by The Tragically Hip.[25] Lady Gaga has also worn a Canadian tuxedo in public.[26]

In 2014, Levi Strauss produced a limited run of 200 replicas of the original Crosby tuxedo jacket as part of that year’s line.[21] Various fashion design houses have also produced couture interpretations of the “Canadian tuxedo”.[20]

The second and last time I saw Anthrax was June 1st 1991 on Clash of the Titans and in our neck of the woods at that time it was 3 rotating headliners (Megadeth, Slayer, and Anthrax) plus Alice in Chains opening.

Fuck, I can go off on many tangents, but having seen a video where Ice-T opens a concert with “Shut up, be happy” (Black Sabbath sample, Jello Biafra lyrics) and then the beginning part of of Megadeth’s Devil’s Island and into “Colors” to start a concert,
well it was pretty cool for Dave Mustaine to have ‘Shut Up, Be Happy’ play before starting with “Wake Up Dead” (and for the first of 3 co-headliners to start, the sound was on!, and that made for the perfect opening tune).

Think I need to bang my head tonight!

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Uncle Retrospective

[Sean Robinson]

Slayer – Chemical warfare

Edit: now it’s Ministry’s Just One Fix – 12″ edit
and I am pretty sure this is my favorite song of all time.
Crank it!

Pretty sure I should leave you guys alone at this point, but I’m enjoying myself

ok, I will, but…

Metallica – Battery

sorry Jon, it’s confirmed you’re a monster

okay, last time

Ministry – So What (live)
_____________

Okay, for real last time, and no links

just wanted to say that if you had to pick ‘one song and only one song from a band’
well, Ministry has
– “Just one Fix (Extended)”
– “NWO” (Extended)
– “Burning Inside” (Live)
– “So What” (Live)
– “Stigmata” (Live) (now that I’ve typed I could go for a listen of the studio version)
Edit: can’t fucking believe I forgot about Jesus Built My Hotrod (Redline/Whiteline version)

point: that’s a serious top 6 without a ‘regular version’

2nd point: that’s a serious top 6 of any band
have to admit it’s hard to rank their albums (in general), but deserted on a desert island and I need that, all of it

and because, whatever – Stigmata – Wiki

• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Sean Robinson.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Sean Robinson.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Sean Robinson.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Sean Robinson.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Sean Robinson.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Sean Robinson.

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Uncle Retrospective

Uncle Retrospective wrote:

You sir, are a monster

At least not some kind of monster… ehhh? =P

Another fun fact, I don’t think I’ve ever heard Kill ‘Em All in its entirety… but to be fair, my top 3 Metallica albums are Ride, Justice and Load, probably in that order.

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Uncle Retrospective, Bruce

Jon wrote:

At least not some kind of monster… ehhh? =P

Actually, that made me laugh out loud!

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Uncle Retrospective

Jon wrote:

They’re also doing a restrospective video series on Youtube for their 40th…

I didnt know about this but burned through the fist 10 of them last night. Thanks for the heads up.

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Uncle Retrospective

Jon wrote:

Well, what can I say, I’ve always been a fan of Bush myself… =P

No but seriously, I prefer John Bush as a vocalist in general. The Armored Saint’s albums from Revelations & on, I love them, the old stuff not so much ’cause it’s VERY dated.

With Anthrax I like the contrast of the melodic vocal vs the thrash music. I like Bush well enough as a vocalist. I was thinking about the Bush era stuff the other night and put the Greater of Two Evils album (the live in the studio album of covers of Belladona era songs) on when I went for a run the other night and he definitely has solid metal chops about him. Next run I’ll try some Armoured Saint on your recommendation (metal is very much my run soundtrack, it’s not best suited for sitting in the garden in the sun on Sunday morning).

I’m the kind of guy who absolutely preferes Load over Master of Puppets

The only way that this could be any worse is if you said Re Load there. 🤣 I don’t hate Load and Re Load (Re Load was actually the first Metallica album I bought) but I think the two saggy and average at best albums have a decent single album hidden within.

Sean Robinson wrote:

Ministry

Still the band I’ve seen live the most.

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Uncle Retrospective, Rocket, Sean Robinson

[njerry]

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Still the band I’ve seen live the most.

The band I’ve seen the most live is YES; but I’ve never seen the same band-member lineup twice.

Edit to clarify: (Actually, I just realized the performer I’ve seen most often is Bruce Springsteen, including his appearance at the No Nukes Concert in Central Park in the 1970s; but I like my Yes anecdote, so I’m keeping the post as is.)

• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by njerry.

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Andrew, DavidM, Todd

Bruce wrote:

Next run I’ll try some Armoured Saint on your recommendation (metal is very much my run soundtrack, it’s not best suited for sitting in the garden in the sun on Sunday morning).

Go for the post 2000 stuff… Revelations, La Raza, Win Hands Down… and there’s a new one I just remembered about, came out late last year, haven’t heard it, but I’m assuming it’s at least as solid as those other 3.

Bruce wrote:

The only way that this could be any worse is if you said Re Load there. I don’t hate Load and Re Load (Re Load was actually the first Metallica album I bought) but I think the two saggy and average at best albums have a decent single album hidden within.

Oh I used to hate Reload for the longest time, but I’ve learnt to appreciate it more with the years… at any rate, nah there’s something I really like about Load, it has a particular sound and atmosphere that makes it very unique… it’s very groovy and blues-y? I don’t know, but I like that type of stuff, whereas Master of Puppets never clicked for me, as an album, since of course there are some killer tracks in there (Battery, Lepper messiah, The thing that should not be).

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Bruce

Oh and speaking of Ministry, my favorite album is Filth Pig, which if I understand correctly it’s the least liked one by people… sooo yeah…

njerry wrote:

The band I’ve seen the most live is YES; but I’ve never seen the same band-member lineup twice.

That could be the same for me and Ministry, actually. The first time I saw them was before Paul Barker left, the second time Tommy Victor of Prong was in the touring band but it was their “farewell” tour – for as long as that lasted! The third time was before Mike Scaccia died and the most recent was after. But that doesn’t matter so much when the band is really Al (and Paul until 2003) and whoever he can rope in for an album or tour

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DavidM, Sean Robinson, njerry

njerry wrote:

The band I’ve seen the most live is YES; but I’ve never seen the same band-member lineup twice.

I’ve seen All Good Peo the Anderson/Howe/Squire/Wakeman/White line-up twice

 

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njerry

Pop

In the news, Billie Eilish released a new single and her accompanying Youtube video has her frolicking/playing around with about 5 of girlfriends. Billie has received some backlash saying that she is “queerbaiting” a mere ploy for Pride month.

Really wouldn’t be the first time some artists disguise themselves. Ariana Grande did some queerbaiting before and (you can google her images) for some fashion magazine covers she is pale white, but when she is on stage with a black rapper like Nicki Minaj (the rap interlude in pop songs is the new guitar solo), she has a noticeable tan, almost darker than the rapper! It is all marketing really to sell records… rap interlude and all. Whites on stage in box braids or dread locks, adding more bass to pop songs… Marketing… cultural appropriation…whatever.

It is all being noticed.

Here is some more info:

Billie Eilish accused of ‘queer baiting’ with Instagram post

https://www.thedailybeast.com/billie-eilish-lorde-and-the-push-for-women-pop-stars-to-constantly-reinvent-themselves

What a load of bollocks, all that picture shows to me is a bunch of girls mucking about. She’s not fondling their tits or anything (more’s the pity).

People spend too much time reading way too much into shit. Adding bass to your song is cultural appropriation?

There are actual genuine problems in the world to be worrying about.

 

 

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DavidM, Dave

garjones wrote:

Adding bass to your song is cultural appropriation?

What, for an underwater concert?

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DavidM, garjones

garjones wrote:

What a load of bollocks, all that picture shows to me is a bunch of girls mucking about. She’s not fondling their tits or anything (more’s the pity).

[Al-x]

I was initially referring to Billie’s latest video on YouTube.

As for adding more bass to pop songs, it is a mimic move, to give more of an urban black sound, a dance beat, that sort of thing. Justin Timberlake was doing some of that years ago. It is why some of the black producers like Timbaland, and years ago Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis have been approached by white entertainers to add something to their music.

It is not just with black people. Gwen Stefani was criticized for having Native American Indian garb in her entertainment once and on another occasion, was dressed up in some Asian style and had this popular Asian girl group as backup dancers. Margaret Cho, an Asian comedian heavily criticized her saying she was using the culture as a gimmick.

——————

Most of you guys aren’t into pop music and social media on pop culture. This was just to give you a taste of what you are missing…

Exciting, eh?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Al-x.

Al-x wrote:

As for adding more bass to pop songs, it is a mimic move, to give more of an urban black sound, a dance beat, that sort of thing. Justin Timberlake was doing some of that years ago. It is why some of the black producers like Timbaland, and years ago Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis have been approached by white entertainers to add something to their music.

Yeah but it’s nonsense.

If it’s so offensive why did Jam and Lewis work with those guys? Were they betraying their people? Would the world have been better off if Niles Rodgers refused to produce David Bowie? A guy we know from the viral video destroyed that MTV executive for not playing black artists.

What do we make of the fact that the template for electronic disco music was ‘I Feel Love’ by Donna Summer, written and produced by Georgio Moroeder? If you research the origins of hip-hop in the early to mid 1970s they were heavily sampling Autobahn by Kraftwerk. They are all white German guys who pioneered electronic music.

I appreciate if people are blatantly copying something without attribution or disrespecting a culture but we’re on sticky ground with sounds. Is Prince culturally appropriating white music when he plays a piano piece, a style pioneered by Bach? If Stefani can’t wear a cheong sam then why is Margaret Cho allowed to wear jeans and t-shirt when that isn’t from Asian culture?

It’s a very complex area and I think if you take it as far as those examples it looks like an argument for segregation. I mean what do we do with this band pioneering tough beats with punk vocals?

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Todd, DavidM, Bruce

Fair point…and it is a complex area as you said.

I just say that it is one thing to collaborate with black producers (ie. Human League with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, Justin Beiber being practically mentored by Usher, Eminem and his relationship with Dr. Dre.). The producers will get credit and a paycheck in the end. It is something else to blatantly mimic and ripoff someone and not give them their due or royalties.

I said this before and will say it again: I am not saying that everything cool, hip, trendy, etc. originated with black people and other people of color. I just say that credit should be given where credit is due.

It is really a backlash to the “whitewashing” of just about everything is society, including music, styles of dance, etc.

https://www.businessinsider.com/pink-floyd-roger-waters-turns-down-facebook-song-ad-zuckerberg-2021-6

I have a hard time accepting accusations of cultural appropriation when it comes to mainstream/popular music. Many of the artists I have great respect for (Paul Simon, Sting, Peter Gabriel, David Byrne, Eddie Vedder) have collaborated with international artists and incorporated “world music” into their repertoire of songs — and, by doing so, they’ve exposed me to these other incredible artists and instruments and rhythms that I might not otherwise have heard.

It’s one thing if a pop artist exploits another culture purely to make a profit; another thing if the artist does it out of love and respect of the sounds and rhythms and music of other cultures.

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Al-x, Todd, DavidM, Dave

I do get Al’s claim about credit. Guys like Sting and Gabriel have always been very upfront about where they were getting their musical influences from and promoting the original artists. Simon is more controversial because of the apartheid sanctions he broke but it’s hard to think he had ill intentions and Ladysmith Black Mambazo are 1000 times more famous and wealthy because he put them, credited, on his album.

You could contrast that with Led Zeppelin who were sneakily ripping off the riffs and tunes of obscure old blues artists.

I think it can be very easy to throw ‘cultural appropriation’ out there though for the slightest thing. Music forever feeds off what came before, regardless of origin, Kraftwerk inspired Moroder, who took disco from bass and strings to a pure electronic beat, that then influenced hip-hop and house and in the UK that led to genuinely mixed race genres like trip-hop and jungle/drum and bass. When Daft Punk have a huge hit album they put Nile and Farrell front and centre and wrote a song with an opening monologue by Moroder. Kanye then copies a chorus off those same French white guys on his track but he also puts them in the video to acknowledge what he borrowed.

You should be able to play what you want with whatever tools you have, Snow though should not be doing Jamaican patois on a record when he’s from Toronto. I don’t get to sing Public Enemy lyrics (except ironically – I do a mean version of ‘Fight The Power’) because it isn’t my experience. Authenticity is key but one community doesn’t own a phat beat on a record.

 

 

 

 

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njerry, Todd, Al-x, DavidM

garjones wrote:

I don’t get to sing Public Enemy lyrics (except ironically – I do a mean version of ‘Fight The Power’) because it isn’t my experience.

Shit, there goes my karaoke party piece of Son Of A Preacher Man.

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Todd, Uncle Retrospective

If you have to have the experience before you can sing about it, I really fear for Bruce Dickinson.

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd

DavidM wrote:

If you have to have the experience before you can sing about it, I really fear for Bruce Dickinson.

He’s probably chased a lot of native americans up the sides of mountains.

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd, Sean Robinson, Bruce

DavidM wrote:

If you have to have the experience before you can sing about it, I really fear for Bruce Dickinson.

I think singing about fictional ideas is fine (I am a Kate Bush fan and that’s most of her work but I didn’t imagine she actually was in Wuthering Heights or dancing with Hitler as she wasn’t born then).

Again it’s upfront though, we would kind of assume Bruce Dickinson hasn’t brought any daughters to the slaughter or the East Midlands police would be intensely involved.

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Uncle Retrospective

But as Anders alluded to, one of Iron Maiden’s most famous songs is about the invasion of America from the perspective of a Cree native. It’s not a fantasy, it’s a real event that was experienced by a sub-culture that Dickinson (or Steve Harris, who wrote the lyric) is not a member of.

But part of being human is being able to empathise with other humans’ experiences. Was Steve Harris chased up a hill by European horsemen? No. Should he be allowed to explore the idea by imagining the feelings of a person who was? Yes. That is basically the entire point of literature.

 

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Dave

It’s a fair argument but it’s still clearly a fictional account as it was over a century before he was born. He’s placing himself in the situation rather than any pretence it’s about his life even if written in first person.

It borders on another area of debate usually around literature.

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I understand the sensitivity about the rap genre specifically, especially given some of the language that is used there (obviously certain racial slurs carry a very different weight when voiced by a white vocalist compared to a black one).

But outside of some specific sensitive examples I would hope we’re not getting to the point where we think that only people from a certain background can sing a certain song.

Or am I going to have to keep my heartfelt renditions of Born This Way for the shower and the shower alone?

I think when we’re talking about appropriation I’m looking at me singing, not ironically or in a karaoke bar, about my tough street life being harassed by the cops like a member of NWA is not really right. I think that is the mimicry Al is alluding to.

However I’m kind of finding myself on the other side of my main argument that taken to the extreme, and yes I think using big beats is an extreme, it does veer very much on a segregationist view. You can’t ever ignore the balance of power but there are logical issues with being able to borrow culture one way and not the other (as in my Margaret Cho example, she can wear western clothes, Gwen Stefani can’t wear east Asian clothes).

From my experience that is not very helpful, living in one of the most multicultural countries on the planet it has many failings but the best of it is the approach to festivals and culture. While the west gets hung about the right words to use the ‘open house’ culture has each group asking the others to wear their dress, sing their songs, eat their food and celebrate with them.

Al may strike me down but there are countless photos of me in Malay, Chinese and Indian outfits and it’s not only tolerated, they love it.

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Christian, Todd, Rocket, Dave, DavidM

It’s that day again, and I shall be listening to The Band That Changed My Life.

“Cultural appropriation” is just a dumbshit rallying cry of the dumbshit twitter “woke” mob. For regular folks it’s simply known as “experiencing other cultures”, which is something the world needs more of, and certainly not less of.

Yesterday was Curtis Mayfield Day as I worked from home. The early-’70s socially-aware funk of Curtis, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder still resonate with relevancy today, but I think Mayfield’s work is often overshadowed by the other two. So every once in a while I have to hear great songs like Freddie’s Dead and Pusherman along with hits like Superfly and Move On Up, just to remember one of the greatest periods of time for music in NYC.

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Al-x, Bruce, Todd

Ok…

Cultural appropriation for the most part is a taking an aspect of another culture, using it (mostly as a gimmick) for one’s own personal gain or promotion.

There is talk now about whites like the Kardashians and other influencers using box braids, dreadlocks,lip fillers, even plastic surgery to get more curves, things that black women were ridiculed for centuries. Progress?
Think again… It is all for personal gain, to be cool and trendy etc.

See, some want to object about people of color saying “You can’t do that”.
It is primarily saying “How dare you set a boundary to me.” Well, what about all the boundaries set in the past centuries, the segregation, the colonization, not respecting boundaries of native people? Even with dating, would a women approve of a man not respecting the touching/personal space boundaries she sets?

This is not bovine excrement. If aspects of your culture is being used by another for their own gain and not giving you credit or anything (no royalty checks were given to the black performers in the past)it is wrong.

There is even a controversy in social media about this now over an old rap song:

Black TikTok creators try to reclaim ‘Black Barbies’ sound

[Al-x]

Jon wrote:

“Cultural appropriation” is just a dumbshit rallying cry of the dumbshit twitter “woke” mob. For regular folks it’s simply known as “experiencing other cultures”, which is something the world needs more of, and certainly not less of.

Uh, no. Experiencing other cultures would be going to a restaurant or seeing a dancing show or going to a museum of another culture.

Cultural appropriation is something else as posted in the posting above and seen all over the news.

————–

Also…with regards to what I posted previously:

I posted in the Random Thread that there is a LOT of money and fame involved in doing a sexy dance and posting the video on social media. Some of the girls have over 150 followers. They are seen as influencers, make millions a year in endorsements, and one recently is closing a TV deal. So, basically, wanting in on some catchy rap tune to dance to it has money written all over it.

No wonder…

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

Al-x wrote:

There is talk now about whites like the Kardashians and other influencers using box braids, dreadlocks,lip fillers, even plastic surgery to get more curves, things that black women were ridiculed for centuries. Progress? Think again… It is all for personal gain, to be cool and trendy etc.

Well that’s the thing… I don’t think about it at all, because I don’t really care if someone wants a thick ass or braids… nor should anyone. Yeah, yeah, I know that’s asking too much these days.

Listen, even with extreme examples like the poor white dude who went through tons of surgeries to become asian and look like his K-pop idol… even in those extreme cases I don’t think “cultural appropriation”, I just think “wow poor guy needs help and someone should really tell him “no”.

I’m not even gonna touch one the whole “black barbie” thing, because the ridiculousness of the whole thing should be self-evident.

Al-x wrote:

Uh, no. Experiencing other cultures would be going to a restaurant or seeing a dancing show or going to a museum of another culture.

Lol… no, that’s really not it. That’s called being a tourist.

Al-x wrote:

So, basically, wanting in on some catchy rap tune to dance to it has money written all over it.

Wow, you really think it’s the song that’s making a difference here? Come on Al, I know you know better.

I’ll tell you one thing, IF someone uses (or abuses as the case might be) a “culture” to make fun of said culture, or to harm someone in any way… yeah that’s wrong, but not because it’s cultural appropriation, but because that person’s an asshole or a bigot and should be called out for being that.

There are many aspects that are interesting there for me. So for decades we’ve had complaints, quite fairly, that the beauty and fashion industry tells everyone to follow a European ideal. Black women straightened their hair, men wore a western suit and tie.

Now times have moved on so often other cultures have the eye of the fashion and beauty industry looks to a broader base – isn’t that what was asked for? If a white person can’t braid their hair should black people stop straightening it?

We could argue, again quite fairly, that you have to take into account balance of power here and historical abuses. Where does that leave cultures that weren’t colonising or dominant. Can a Thai woman have braids? Or an Albanian? Do I with nearly 20 years living in Asia have more right to wear local dress than an Asian born and raised in Detroit?

How closely is culture entwined with race? Rap and hip-hop culture specifically started in New York, so by one set of logic Jerry or even Donald Trump has more right to be a rapper than Stormzy, MIA or MC Solaar. Does the Asian from Detroit have to embrace traditional Chinese music when they grew up in the birthplace of Motown and techno?

Is there a fear of change in aspects of this? I couldn’t help but notice Al put in Eminem as someone who was being culturally appropriated when he’s a blonde white guy. He’s an established one though who we’ve been used to as part of the scene for 20 years.

To me it can get a very messy area, very quickly.

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Dave, DavidM

[Al-x]

Ok…

Most of the “8 Mile” movie was true. Eminem was in those underground rap battles and he was accepted by those huge black audiences because he was genuine in his art form. He came in #2 in a battle, caught the eye of Dr. Dre’s people. Dre signed him up, mentored him and the rest…

See, it is one thing when the genuineness and respect is there, and it is not a mimicry and outright stealing.

As for black women straightening their hair, they had to in order to conform to office standards.

What I was saying is that other women wore braids and dreads not out of respect but as a steal and self promotion.

I am not saying that everything cool, trendy, popular, etc. originated with black people. Just that a lot was stolen from them, more than people have realized.

——–

PS – I am sorry for having this derailment/tangent go on for so long. I want to get back to new music. Carry on

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

We can get back to music but I may revive this elsewhere as it is an interesting complex area.

garjones wrote:

We can get back to music but I may revive this elsewhere as it is an interesting complex area.

Make damn sure to label your thread for interesting complex areas properly.

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Todd

[Al-x]

garjones wrote:

We can get back to music but I may revive this elsewhere as it is an interesting complex area.

Hey… Gareth wants to start a Thought Provoking Thread!😂

It’s an appropriation! 😂😂😂

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

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Christian, DavidM, Bruce, Dave, garjones

garjones wrote:

To me it can get a very messy area, very quickly.

I think the best rule of thumb is if people of the group in question are telling you it’s cultural appropriation, you take them at face value. For all others, double-check with the offendees.

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Todd, Al-x, Rocket

lorcan_nagle wrote:

the group in question are telling you it’s cultural appropriation, you take them at face value.

I’m afraid I can’t accept that. Al says electronic music and big beats are cultural appropriation, I know the origin of them is complex and a lot of it belongs to boring white Germans in the 1970s and as a Gary Numan fan should he delete his catalogue as Al has said, as a member of a minority, that it is?.

I don’t ever say the concept doesn’t exist, the Washington Redskins were an abomination of cultural appropriation but does Margaret Cho, in her jeans and heavy metal t-shirt, have command over what my mixed race kids born and raised in Asia get to wear? I don’t think so.

Complex.

Al even dives head first and into the deep end that Eminem is fine, others aren’t? Even ones produced by the same guy? Do I follow the ‘group’  view of Al or the one of Dre who thinks it’s fine or wouldn’t do it?

The ‘rule of thumb’ falls down when very few people from that group can agree, when they all do. go ahead.

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DavidM, Dave

Jon wrote:

Wow, you really think it’s the song that’s making a difference here? Come on Al, I know you know better.

I’ll tell you one thing, IF someone uses (or abuses as the case might be) a “culture” to make fun of said culture, or to harm someone in any way… yeah that’s wrong, but not because it’s cultural appropriation, but because that person’s an asshole or a bigot and should be called out for being that.

Jon… as the old saying goes: Follow the money.

As for the rest of what you said, I agree wholeheartedly and so do a lot of other members here who understand.

As for assholes and bigots, they also use it for personal gain or gratification. Which reminds me… and this is rhetorical:

For all that Trump said about Mexicans in his very first press conference till now, why do you think would he make an exception for Salma Hayek?

Donald Trump tried to get Salma Hayek to cheat on her boyfriend with him

Al-x wrote:

For all that Trump said about Mexicans in his very first press conference till now, why do you think would he make an exception for Salma Hayek?

I don’t get what this has got to do with cultural appropriation, but for what it’s worth, I don’t believe Trump is racist… what he is is an opportunistic clown who’ll say any and everything he thinks he has to in order to gain benefit… so no, he wouldn’t make an exception because it wouldn’t even really be an exception.

In terms of the cultural appropriation thing, I could pull a trick from the radicals in here and say “it doesn’t exist” like they do with stuff like cancel culture, but I won’t because I’m not like that, but also because yes, it does exist, but it is not this horrible negative thing people claim it to be. At this point it’s just some BS buzz-term so that some people can get offended at something… to me it’s one more in the “first world issues” column (as in, who gives a shit, not a proper issue, just to be clear).

Wow…

I am getting tired of talking about this. I agree with most of Gareth’s postings above. Gareth does realize the difference. He is also right. It is complex and blurry. In some instances, you can’t quite put a finger on it, and in others you get this gut feeling that it is a mimicry for a money grab.

Keep in mind that I spoke about rap and Eminem. The black audiences in those early Detroit club rap battles sensed his genuineness and he got credibility. There is a difference between him, Vanilla Ice, and Marky Mark back in the day.

I also mentioned pop, a market with a lot of competition. There are various types of “baiting” and mimicry because pop is so competitive. I talked in another thread somewhere about Pink, Miley, and Post Malone.

I am sofa king tired of that Cultural Appropriation term but there is something to it. It is a fancy term, but for the most part it readily implies a theft of something. And @jacowboy, there is a difference between theft and celebrating other cultures and styles.
You know it when you see it.

As for Margaret Cho and Gwen Stefani, I leave you to Google both names together and you will get a listing of articles and videos on the whole story. You decide.
—–

PS – I know most members here aren’t into Pop and social media issues. Sorry for the derailment.

And Gareth, you have my approval to “appropriate” a Thought Provoking Thread. 😂

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Rocket

[njerry]

I’ve noticed that, since the early days of COVID, the overwhelming majority of the new music I’ve been listening to and enjoying comes from female singers and songwriters — Julien Baker, Waxahatchee, First Aid Kit, Japanese Breakfast, Kasey Musgraves, and Amythyst Kiah, to name a few. Even Taylor Swift, whose pop stuff did nothing for me but whose two lockdown releases (folklore and evermore) are solid stuff.

I’ve listened to new releases from male artists and male-fronted bands, but I keep going back to the women. Not sure why this is — maybe they are just more comforting during these 16+ months of emotional upheaval.

By the way, if you haven’t heard Amythyst Kiah’s Wary + Strange album yet, do it now!! Here’s a taste…

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by njerry.

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Andrew, Todd, DavidM, Al-x

[njerry]

njerry wrote:

I’ve noticed that, since the early days of COVID, the overwhelming majority of the new music I’ve been listening to and enjoying comes from female singers and songwriters — Julien Baker, Waxahatchee, First Aid Kit, Japanese Breakfast, Kasey Musgraves, and Amythyst Kiah, to name a few. Even Taylor Swift, whose pop stuff did nothing for me but whose two lockdown releases (folklore and evermore) are solid stuff.

I’ve listened to new releases from male artists and male-fronted bands, but I keep going back to the women. Not sure why this is — maybe they are just more comforting during these 16+ months of emotional upheaval.

By the way, if you haven’t heard Amythyst Kiah’s Wary + Strange album yet, do it now!! Here’s a taste…

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by njerry.

I have been enjoying Arlo Parks.

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njerry

[DavidM]

njerry wrote:

I’ve noticed that, since the early days of COVID, the overwhelming majority of the new music I’ve been listening to and enjoying comes from female singers and songwriters

The same happened to me, but not just since Covid, it’s been an increasing trend for the last 20 years. As a general rule, all the singers I like most from the 70s are male, all the singers I like most from the last decade are female.

In my case the explanation is pretty simple though: in the 70s, very few women sang the kind of music I most listen to. In the last decade, they’ve found opportunities to attain parity with the men in the field. It’s not my appreciation that has changed, it’s the industry.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by DavidM.

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njerry, Todd

We must have different tastes. I just listened to all those songs and the most positive thing I could say is that they are mellow. so imo, you listen to music to chill out. Which is entirely cool. To me, i listen to the lyrics and they sound depressing. I prefer more upbeat music and like more aggressive lyrics like Pink or Dua Lipa.

I’ve seen Pink in concert twice. She is fantastic live.

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Andrew

Elton John

Elton has done a lot of work regarding funding for the AIDS crisis and the gay community.
Every year he has an After Oscar party etc.
He does private parties (birthdays, weddings) for the super rich at over $1M a day.

Now…

He has made some quip remarks about entertainers like Madonna and Janet Jackson, regarding their lip syncing in concert.
(In the previous music thread we got into entertainers and singers, so I won’t rehash it here.)
I take it that he doesn’t get it that the entertainers who have do a song and dance at the same time are very different from him as
he mostly sits at the piano and sings with no acrobatics.

He had a feud with George Michael too but I forgot what it was about.

Anyway, maybe he is getting more cranky as he gets older.

Elton John has always been cranky. It may say a lot about our ages but how long ago was that documentary where he had a fit about some tennis court thing? 20 or 25 years ago?

The thing is people are many sided and while Elts can be a moany old bitch I’ve always loved his championing of new music. While other artist his age complain it isn’t like the good old days and pulling up the ladder behind their success he gives the young musicians around a big push with his profile.

 

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Dave

Al-x wrote:

I take it that he doesn’t get it that the entertainers who have do a song and dance at the same time are very different from him as
he mostly sits at the piano and sings with no acrobatics.

Funny you should say that about Elton John. If you’ve seen the film ROCKETMAN you’ll see that in the 1970s Elton practically did an Olympic gymnastics routine while playing his piano onstage. And managed to play well and sing on key while he did his exercises.

I grant you artists like Madonna and Janet Jackson incorporate choreographed dance routines into their stage performances, and such routines require a lot of concentration…but they became popular based on their songs and their singing, and it is disingenuous for a singer to promote a “live” performance that involves lip-syncing to pre-recorded lyrics.

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DavidM

Found this on YouTube looking up covers of “Our Love” by Natalie Cole:

Their voices just blew me away.

njerry wrote:

I grant you artists like Madonna and Janet Jackson incorporate choreographed dance routines into their stage performances, and such routines require a lot of concentration…but they became popular based on their songs and their singing, and it is disingenuous for a singer to promote a “live” performance that involves lip-syncing to pre-recorded lyrics.

I wonder, if their concerts were promoted as “visual dance spectacular with CDs playing”, would they get the same audiences? Does the audience who go to a concert like that really care about live singing, as long as they get a visual feast and hear their favourite songs played over the PA?

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njerry

This is an unusual attitude to copying claims. You’d normally expect a lawsuit in a case like this, but Elvis Costello seems ok with it:

Elvis Costello has defended pop star Olivia Rodrigo after she was accused of lifting one of his guitar riffs.

Brutal, a track on Rodrigo’s number one album, is based around a punky chord sequence that also featured in Costello’s 1978 hit Pump It Up.

But when a Twitter user said Rodrigo’s song was “pretty much a direct lift”, Costello replied: “This is fine by me.

“It’s how rock & roll works,” he wrote. “You take the broken pieces of another thrill and make a brand new toy.”

He added: “That’s what I did.”

The veteran singer-songwriter also included hashtags referencing Bob Dylan’s 1965 classic Subterranean Homesick Blues, which inspired Pump It Up; and Chuck Berry’s 1956 single Too Much Monkey Business, which influenced the Dylan song.

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Christian, Rocket, Todd

DavidM wrote:

You’d normally expect a lawsuit

Lawsuits just aren’t rock ‘n roll.

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Rocket, lorcan_nagle

Anonymous wrote:

DavidM wrote:

You’d normally expect a lawsuit

Lawsuits just aren’t rock ‘n roll.

No, they are very rock n’ roll.

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Uncle Retrospective, lorcan_nagle

[Al-x]

Jon wrote:

“Cultural appropriation” is just a dumbshit rallying cry of the dumbshit twitter “woke” mob.

@jacowboy

Uh… No.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cultural+appropriation

Here is a textbook example that is going on as we speak:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=black+tik+tok+strike

Least I forget about the term “blackfishing”. Here is Iggy Azalea:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/vannessajackson/iggy-azalea-called-out-black-face?fbclid=IwAR1y4z9DOVwV5V-keucoh5BLOKD-I1ip3PwBEtd9AxtPgLF02L3a6anx0aI

Iggy Azalea is serving 🖤#iamthestripclub pic.twitter.com/7Med9guuEl

— boohoo (@boohoo) July 2, 2021

https://www.insider.com/celebrities-blackfishing-accusations-racially-ambiguous?fbclid=IwAR2-yTBQZ0HrYQ-a1dDDhX6G2AROtfWdQZpku-M-owPriMo5tEmTaMhx7nk

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMd9gLcKp/

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMd9bvWwB/

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

Working from home yesterday, I listened to Elton John’s 1970s albums in chronological order on Spotify (yes, there is a playlist for chronological Elton!). I discovered that there is a recording of the song “Madman on the Water” originally intended for his TUMBLEWEED CONNECTION album with Mick Ronson playing lead guitar. Elton decided not to keep it on that album, and instead re-recorded it with guitarist Davey Johnstone for his next album, titled MADMAN ON THE WATER. While I think Johnstone is a gifted and versatile guitarist, the Mick Ronson version of the song has much more muscle.

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Rocket

On a Discord I frequent, someone posted this, saying that it sounded like a parody you’d hear on The Boondocks:

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JRCarter wrote:

On a Discord I frequent, someone posted this, saying that it sounded like a parody you’d hear on The Boondocks:

Ahahahhahahahah! I love it!

Kinda sounds like Jon Lajoie.

Poes law, music edition.

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Uncle Retrospective

I have no idea why youtube just recommended this to me but I really like it. I have no idea what language it is, does anybody recognise all those squiggles?

It’s my monthly round up time.

This time we have metal, indie rock, synthy soundtrack prog, breakbeat, techno and chill out.

June was a great month for music.

 

Music June 2021

 

 

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DavidM

The biggest one-hit wonders from the ’80s

https://www.yardbarker.com/entertainment/articles/the_biggest_one_hit_wonders_from_the_80s/s1__35133602

JRCarter wrote:

The biggest one-hit wonders from the ’80s

I have 15 of those 20 songs in my iTunes library.

You think I should buy the other 5?

867 – 5309

Still love it! 😊

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Todd

njerry wrote:

JRCarter wrote:

The biggest one-hit wonders from the ’80s

I have 15 of those 20 songs in my iTunes library.

You think I should buy the other 5?

Yes.

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njerry

If all goes well (I’m counting nothing as guaranteed these days) I’ll be seeing this guy live on Saturday night:

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Bruce, njerry

njerry wrote:

I have 15 of those 20 songs in my iTunes library.

the missing 5

The Rain

The Promise

Too Shy

Pass the Dutchie

I melt with you

how did I do?

I listened to this album tonight for the first time in a while.

I can’t work out whether Diamond is cool now or not (he was very uncool when I was a kid) but this relatively late record (2005) is a very decent album.

It was produced by Rick Rubin after he did that run of Johnny Cash albums, and he works the same magic here, paring everything down to the basics – simple arrangements, solid songwriting and that rich emotive voice.

Listening to Diamond always reminds me of my dad – he always had his stuff on constantly when I was a kid – but this was the first album to ever make me see what he saw in him.

(Years later I had a boozy late-night conversation with my dad about how he discovered Diamond’s music (when a friend introduced him to Hot August Night) and he came to life in a way that I’ve never really seen before – it was like he was a young man again, enthusiastic and excited. Funny how music can do that to us.)

So anyway, cool or not, I understand the Diamond appeal now that I never did as a kid.

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Bruce, DavidM, Todd

Rocket wrote:

the missing 5

The Rain

The Promise

Too Shy

Pass the Dutchie

I melt with you

how did I do?

You got The Rain and The Promise correct. The other three I don’t have are:

Break My Stride
Turn Up the Radio
I Wanna Be a Cowboy

I mean, how could you NOT own Too Shy, I Melt With You, and especially Pass the Dutchie (which I owned as a 45 single when I was younger and cooler)?

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Rocket

Dave wrote:

So anyway, cool or not, I understand the Diamond appeal now that I never did as a kid.

I think Diamond and some other artists of that style are better appreciated as an adult when you have lived some life.

Still though, I loved this song as a kid (still do!) though I thought he sang “Reverend Blue Jeans”:

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Rocket, DavidM, Dave

Dave wrote:

I can’t work out whether Diamond is cool now or not (he was very uncool when I was a kid)

I’ve always liked Neil Diamond, but I don’t think he was ever cool.

Having said that, Deep Purple covered Kentucky Woman, which I guess makes him cool by association

 

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Dave

[Rocket]

Have either of you seen “Saving Silverman”. It is about a Neil Diamond cover band who try to get their lead singer(Silverman) back from an evil, manipulative woman. I just noticed its overseas title was Evil Woman. ha

Great Cast. Steve Zahn, early Jack Black, Amanda Peet, R Lee Emery, Jason Biggs is Silverman.

 

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Rocket.

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Dave, Todd

DavidM wrote:

I’ve always liked Neil Diamond, but I don’t think he was ever cool.

I’m thinking mainly about the current vogue for Sweet Caroline.

Rocket wrote:

Have either of you seen “Saving Silverman”. It is about a Neil Diamond cover band who try to get their lead singer(Silverman) back from an evil, manipulative woman. I just noticed its overseas title was Evil Woman. ha

I never have but I might check it out.

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Rocket

Dave wrote:

I’m thinking mainly about the current vogue for Sweet Caroline.

There’s a current vogue for Sweet Caroline?

 

DavidM wrote:

Dave wrote:

I’m thinking mainly about the current vogue for Sweet Caroline.

There’s a current vogue for Sweet Caroline?

 

Yeah it’s become a song that’s played a lot at sports events (in particular Euro 2020) for some reason I can’t fathom.

 

DavidM wrote:

I have no idea why youtube just recommended this to me but I really like it. I have no idea what language it is, does anybody recognise all those squiggles?

Yes. Pretty certain that’s Thai writing.

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lorcan_nagle

Euro 2020: How Neil Diamond’s Sweet Caroline became an accidental football anthem

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DavidM

When Clapton checked out Purple Rain:

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