Watchmen (TV Series) Thread – SPOILERS INSIDE!!!

Topic

[Todd]

I’m seeing positive reviews for it.
https://www.tvguide.com/news/watchmen-hbo-review-damon-lindelof/

• This topic was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Todd.

Replies

Christian wrote:

I do have some sympathy for Tim’s complaint, though – Iron’s Veidt seems too… sadistic, I guess? Too rough? There was an aura of deep-felt compassion and empathy about him in the comic, which made his monstrosity all the worse. I think they went wrong in losing that.

.

Anonymous wrote:

Yes this is well articulated. He’s malevolent which Veidt isn’t. He’s a control freak who thinks he’s doing this all for the betterment of humanity. Irons comes across as a control freak but also he’s chaotic and perverse and vicious, may be that’s due to his enclosure but I’m not sure. I think it’s just their take on the character.

I think they might be going for a kind of Howard Hughes thing with Veidt. That his increasing age, combined with the weight of his actions in the original story and his isolation, might be tearing him apart.

In the original story, he seemed to have some regret and doubt over his actions even though he felt them necessary. Here he comes off eccentric and gleefully malevolent. I wonder if we won’t learn something happened to him in the decades since he dropped the squid on New York that caused the change in his character. There seems to be some kind of history between him and Trieu. And we still don’t know who put him on Jupiter’s moon; Manhattan seems to be the most likely culprit, but it might also have been Trieu.

Or maybe, like Dr. Manhattan, he isn’t off-world at all, but in some kind of virtual reality-type of prison. For all we know, he could be laying in a bed somewhere in Trieu’s compound hooked-up to a Nostalgia-like device. Or, again, like Dr. Manhattan, he could also be a character we’ve already seen like Looking Glass, living in someone else’s body or an assumed identity without realizing it.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Dr. Manhattan thing is gonna be a mess… doesn’t really make sense, and it hoesntly feels like a lazy plot twist.
 
But re: Veidt, yeah, he could be imprisoned in his mind… heck he might even be IN that statue, having a perpetual nightmare… (and considering the whole thing with Trieu and nostalgia, makes some sense)… at this point who knows.

I’m loving this show, it’s great entertainment and an interesting look at the Watchmen “what if” alternate history. Personally I’m just looking to be entertained for an hour a week so I don’t dig too deep into scrutinizing it. There are certainly flaws but I don’t see a Trainwreck coming.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything by Lindelof so I’m not (yet) convinced this will end unsatisfactory.

Did anyone else pick up on the closing music for the last episode? Perfection!

Yes. It was a stripped down instrumental piano cover of David Bowie’s 1973 “Life on Mars”
It was done by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross…

It is on You tube if you want to hear it.

Jon wrote:

The more I think about it, the more I think the Dr. Manhattan thing is gonna be a mess… doesn’t really make sense, and it hoesntly feels like a lazy plot twist.

There seem to be so many coincidences in the story to the point that everything has to be the result of some manipulation to be believed. Angela Abar is the granddaughter of the very first masked superhero in the Watchmen storyline and he was also a surviver of the Black Wall Street Massacre in Tulsa OK. Even though she has roots in Tulsa, she’s raised in Vietnam and, apparently, randomly returns to Tulsa (possibly for economic reasons) to be a police officer with her husband who she also met in Vietnam. Then, she also becomes a victim of a racist massacre AND, as a result, she also becomes a masked vigilante even though she has no idea that her grandfather was Hooded Justice – who also was a cop who put on a mask.

And she finds out that Cal, her husband, is actually Dr. Manhattan.

That’s not exactly what you would call a “thermodynamic miracle.” It’s a serious amount of manipulation of plot events to make connections in the story.

 

Anonymous wrote:

And she finds out that Cal, her husband, is actually Dr. Manhattan.

Actually it seems she knew all along… But besides all you pointed out, my problem is with Jon… he stated he was gonna leave at the end of the book, meaning he already knew he would… he was “over” mankind and their affairs… why would he come back, fall for yet another woman connected to a masked hero, and then become a human for a while, which btw, how does that even work? can he even do that? but even if he can, WHY would he? That’s my problem with this “plot twist”… =/

I’ll wait until the first season arc is completed before I start criticizing the story elements. I assume we will find out WHY Dr. Manhattan returned to Earth and arranged it so that he could live as a human with no memory of who he really is.

Jon wrote:

Actually it seems she knew all along… But besides all you pointed out, my problem is with Jon… he stated he was gonna leave at the end of the book, meaning he already knew he would… he was “over” mankind and their affairs… why would he come back, fall for yet another woman connected to a masked hero, and then become a human for a while, which btw, how does that even work? can he even do that? but even if he can, WHY would he? That’s my problem with this “plot twist”… =/

It is a complete departure from the source material, but I don’t feel the show in general has really been very true to the source material. It’s a completely different story that is going to change the original as necessary. Jon in this probably won’t really be the same sort of Dr Manhattan in Watchmen. He’ll be a version of the character who’s made to fit into the story.

I think it will be interesting to see how they depict this version. Dr. Manhattan is a character whose best version obviously is the original, but even then, it had to be compromised to work.

In the Watchmen comic book, the world is predetermined. Not just in the sense that it is a comic book that has been published so everything in it is determined, but in the sense that the outcomes to all events are inevitable. This is somewhat true of reality. Despite all the talk of probabilities at the quantum level, the universe – as far as any scientific empirical experiments demonstrate, the world we live in is consistent and deterministic. Whatever happens is the only thing that could happen. The only thing is that nothing is 100% predictable because we cannot process all the necessary factors involved in any outcome faster than time itself does.

However, in Watchmen, Dr Manhattan has a cheat. He essentially transcends three-dimensional spacetime and is able to exist from his point of view in any moment of his entire existence – even before he became Dr. Manhattan. So, essentially, he is a mobile single observation point in a line that moves through four dimensions of spacetime. The cheat is that he cannot exist outside that line and that line will not change. That brings up its own questions.

So, how would a “tachyon shower” prevent him from shifting his perspective? The tachyon burst generated by Veidt (and that would take some amazing technology, by the way) implies that Jon would actually exist in the shared “now” that everyone else experiences and he “looks” into the future or past from this “present” position. However, when we see it from his point of view instead, he simply exists in every moment of his life at any particular point.

Moore actually presents an interesting answer to this question. Though Jon can technically “see” the future, he never acts on that information in any way. There are a few exchanges like this, but the most obvious is on Mars when he has this conversation

DR. MANHATTAN
          Our conversation commences when you
          surprise me with the information that you
          and Dreiberg have been sleeping together.

          LAURIE
          You . know about me and Dan?

          DR. MANHATTAN
          Not yet. But in a few moments, you're
          going to tell me.

          LAURIE
          Jon, I'm having enough problems right now
          without getting into your predestination
          crap.

          DR. MANHATTAN
          Why does my perception of time distress
          you so?

          LAURIE
          Because. If you already know the future,
          why were you surprised when I left you,
          or when that reporter ambushed you? Why
          even debate if you already know the
          outcome?

          DR. MANHATTAN
          Because everything is pre-ordained. Even
          my responses.

          LAURIE
          Agh! This is so typical of you! Do you
          know what a relief it is to be with
          somebody human, like Dan?

          DR. MANHATTAN
          You mean you're sleeping with Dan
          Dreiberg?

Moore actually presents an interesting answer to this question. Though Jon can technically “see” the future, he never acts on that information in any way. He knows that Laurie and Dan are having an affair, but he also doesn’t know it until the proper moment. Or more to the point, he doesn’t react to it until it is revealed in the course of time.

This then throws into question much of the rest of what he says in the story. 
Can he really not see past the tachyon field, or can he simply not react to what he "knows"? 
The interesting part is at the end when he starts to "glitch." 
He seems to be losing his ability to restrict his point of view to a single instant. 
Tachyons are theoretical particles that move faster than light. 
However, what would that "look like" if you could see them?

Well, it might look like some other particle moving at or a little slower than the speed of light since tachyons would 
be traveling backwards in time. 
You would see them moving forward in time because you are moving forward in time. 
You just wouldn't know that you are moving toward their origin point rather than toward their destination.

So, it could be that Veidt was able to confuse Jon because he would be seeing images of the future in the present 
at the same time that he is able to exist in those moments in the future as well. 

Moore thinks deeply into his plots so it would make sense that Veidt’s plan worked because he misunderstood Jon’s abilities just as he fails to destroy Jon for the same reason. And he fails to stop Rorschach from revealing the mystery for the same reason. Veidt has a blind spot because he doesn’t really think that anyone can outsmart him:

It doesn’t seem to be Moore’s Dr. Manhattan but Lindeloff’s.

I don’t think a trap like that would work on the Manhattan in the comics.

Anyway I get the feeling from the previews of the flashback moments of Manhattan and Aybar and so on and then the season finale will be the confrontation.

This reveal of him being in plain sight all along… How were we supposed to know about Aybar and him in the past?

Al-x wrote:

It doesn’t seem to be Moore’s Dr. Manhattan but Lindeloff’s.

Yeah, since Jon says he does not react to future information until it is revealed in the present in the comics then the idea he might fall in love with someone in the future and that determines his relationship with them in the present is contrary to the comics.

it is a good idea. Essentially it’s a big part of the story in THE TIME TRAVELER’S WIFE.

So this is more like someone freed from seeing time linearly but also not trapped by the inevitability of linear time.

And there is really no honest way the audience should have guessed any of the reveals except for a few. The story is set up that way. Anything can happen and it can be explained later in flashbacks.

however, again, Abar’s life is a confluence of incredible coincidences.

The “problem” of future sight in a story ( like time travel) is that it creates paradoxes that can’t be explained with logic. That’s one reason I don’t analyze stories with either of those two elements too deeply, it can unravel pretty quick. The GN has the same issue with Dr Manhattan’s future sight.

I’m sure the question of why Jon is pretending to be Cal will get answered and I don’t see a contradiction with the GNs ending, Jon could have changed his mind or just flat out lied about what he was going to do.

It is a situation where anything can happen. Superman could show up and then we’d get a flashback of some interdimensional shenanigans explaining it. This entire planet could be Dr. Manhattan’s creation as part of his experiment to understand/regain humanity. Literally anything could happen in the story.

That’s any work of fiction though, using flashbacks to explain away the rediculous isn’t what’s happening with this show. It doesn’t appear to be that desperate or lazy in it’s story telling (too me).

Anonymous wrote:

And there is really no honest way the audience should have guessed any of the reveals except for a few.

 
That’s kind of Lindelof’s problem in general, he is shit at writing mysteries… u_u
 
A good reveal is a fine line between being guessable but not being to obvious. Lindelof tends to just throw surprises at a wall and see what sticks (re: Lost), and even then, he doesn’t even bother with what sticks. But hey, maybe it’s my Lost PTSD talking… but I’m VERY wary of Lindelof, I don’t really trust him… he’s not really changing my mind here either, but it’s still not over, we’ll see… I’ll at least give him the benefit of the doubt, thin as it might be…

I haven’t trusted him since he stole my girlfriend, the snake.

This show is fine though

Andy wrote:

That’s any work of fiction though, using flashbacks to explain away the rediculous isn’t what’s happening with this show. It doesn’t appear to be that desperate or lazy in it’s story telling (too me).

In a lot of ways – at least for a few episodes – flashbacks (or examinations of past events) actually seem to make up more of the whole narrative than the straight linear narrative from Judd’s murder to the Jon/Cal revelation. The show is pretty much the flashbacks – or the dramatic narrative of the show is carried as much by the flashbacks as it is by the somewhat drawn out linear present-time storyline.

That actually has worked a little better because a lot of the present storyline involves people who really have just met or haven’t got much investment in each other. However, in the flashbacks, there is a cast of characters who are connected and involved around the person who serves as the focus of the episode.

Like in the comic, solving the mystery of the murder of the Comedian worked because all the major players had a connection to each other and to the Comedian. So, the flashbacks were there to flesh out those connections so that the next scene in the major storyline – the A Story – had more context and depth.

In the show, I’m not as engaged in the present tense as I am in the past.

Grrr. Can’t really the thread anymore, as I’ve only just watched the Looking Glass episode and don’t want to know too much before more becomes available. Anyway, I thought this was another geat episode that really pushed things along. We will see how things go from here.

Keep in mind that the Watchmen story by Moore wasn’t wall to wall action either. It had its intrigue and interesting concepts of its alternate history but wasn’t an action story.

To expect more from the show… the only thing so far was getting into the race politics and making it from a black woman point of view. The reveal could have been better as well.

Well we will see more tonight.

Al-x wrote:

It had its intrigue and interesting concepts of its alternate history but wasn’t an action story.

I don’t have any issue with the lack of “action” – the fistfights we’ve seen haven’t been too far removed from the Snyder approach that the in-show “American Hero Story” has been mocking.

Without the recaps and easter egg collections of YouTube I’d have lost interest. That one channel’s videos actually did manage to guess several of the curveballs ahead of time, including that Cal (Kal) is Dr Manhattan.

I am at this point still expecting a bit of a mess not unlike Westworld S1. A bunch of wild ideas that keep you shocked and guessing, but that don’t come together.

Some of the dialogue has been atrocious – I cringed at the young Angela’s completely un-naturalistic exchange with her parents (“the same thing we told you last week, and the week before” – not needed after the shopkeeper already made clear that she’s tried to rent that “maskploitation”video previously.)

Ok, you know what? fuck this show… what was the point of not showing John’s face? What’s that kind of amateur bullshit? Are they commited to their story or not, because if they’re not, then why should I be?
 
And that’s without even getting into the rest of the episode, which was a very sub-par rehash of that great DM issue… and hey I’m willing to look past the unimpressive FX and the shitty body paint but man the dialogue was baaaaaaaaaaaaad and whoever played OG Jon had horrible line delivery, and I didn’t buy any of it, just read like some bad fan fiction, tbh…
 
If this was their whole reveal and what they were betting on, they made a bad bet. I don’t see how they fix this, tbh… but oh well, one episode left… might as well stick it out at this point… u_u

Another fantastic episode. Very similar to “The Constant,” the best episode of Lost, but definitely its own thing too.

Glad to see the horseshoe finally pay off in the post-credits scene, even if it doesn’t explain how he knew he’d eventually need it.

This episode was brilliant and probably the best of the series.

Loved exploring those aspects of Dr Manhattan’s identity like that.

I think the show is very, very good.

The strongest, smartest episode of the show yet. Actually moving and effecting and stunning. However it was not without its flaws – Jon did look pretty silly, so I appreciated that they hid his face pre-Kal (even though there might be another reason for that).

There’s a lot of ground to cover in the final episode – the millennium clock, Laurie, Steele, Looking Glass, Adrian returning to Earth, and of course Lube-Man.

The Lube Man mystery is being saved for season 2 obviously.  It’s the strongest hook.

Jon wrote:

Ok, you know what? fuck this show… what was the point of not showing John’s face? What’s that kind of amateur bullshit? Are they commited to their story or not, because if they’re not, then why should I be?
 
And that’s without even getting into the rest of the episode, which was a very sub-par rehash of that great DM issue… and hey I’m willing to look past the unimpressive FX and the shitty body paint but man the dialogue was baaaaaaaaaaaaad and whoever played OG Jon had horrible line delivery, and I didn’t buy any of it, just read like some bad fan fiction, tbh…
 
If this was their whole reveal and what they were betting on, they made a bad bet. I don’t see how they fix this, tbh… but oh well, one episode left… might as well stick it out at this point… u_u

The non-linear storytelling worked very well and was appropriate for Dr. Manhattan. I laughed at some of the musical choices (Rhapsody in Blue, Blue Danube Walzt).

Ultimately for me though, the episode felt hollow. The performances all felt a bit phoned in. I think series is technically very good. It has good performances, good scenes, and good direction, but they don’t seem to come together as a whole. It seems to be lacking some spark in the whole. I appreciate what the series is trying to do but it feels like it is coming up short. As I said before, I’d rate the show a B- at best. I’m not sure the finale well raise that score but we’ll see.

I think one of my biggest issues is that show has focused so heavily on the “Heroes” that the “Villains” (Senator Keene and Seventh Kavalry) are just one dimensional. There may more about them in the finale but that feels like it’s way to late in the game. I know we got a little bit in Episode 5 “Little Fear of Lightning” but that seemed to just say, “Yes, we’re the bad guys”.

Jon wrote:

Ok, you know what? fuck this show…

Thank You Jon, I needed a good smile today. don’t ever change.

It was ok… I just wish that we had hints of this relationship a lot earlier.

Al-x wrote:

It was ok… I just wish that we had hints of this relationship a lot earlier.

In retrospect, some comments that Laurie made to Angela about Cal suggest that she knew something about this. I have a feeling when I rewatch this series I’ll discover a few hints that I was too dense to pick up the first time around.

I have a feeling when I rewatch this series I’ll discover a few hints that I was too dense to pick up the first time around.

This is a show like Lost where you pretty much have to watch it a few times with different levels of focus to pick up certain things.

Al-x wrote:

It was ok… I just wish that we had hints of this relationship a lot earlier.

 
Yeah, I didn’t buy it one bit… I think Todd really nailed it with the word “hollow”. That realtionship seems forced as fuck, like merely a box to tick for the plot’s sake. One of my issues is, the whole show is heavily centered on Angela, and yet, I still don’t really care about her, I don’t even find her compelling.
 
Another thing Todd mentioned, and I mentioned the other day, is the lack of a “threat” or any focus on the “villains”… the first hint we got at that threat was on episode 7 (of 9), that’s not very good…
 
That, and the fact that they completely missed both the point of Jon AND how his whole shtick works, which was the ONE thing they HAD to get right if they were gonna use Jon =/
 
It’s kinda werid (and very telling) that I’m legit more interested in knowing more about Lube-dude and Dan, a character we haven’t even seen on the show.

Is WATCHMEN’s Lady Trieu Working With the Seventh Kavalry?

So I watched the latest episode last night.
Fast forward through credits and Hey!, we’ve got some more episode!
However my recording stopped when Jeremy Irons was staring at the cake.
A means of escape?

Sean Robinson wrote:

However my recording stopped when Jeremy Irons was staring at the cake.
A means of escape?

The horseshoe was inside in the cake, and he started to use it to dig through the floor.

Thing is, as I am saying in the storytelling thread, now that Dr. Manhattan is revealed, will the show become the Dr. Manhattan show now?

I mean in GoT, the dragons ended up stealing most of the show. Will that happen now in Watchmen?

Al-x wrote:

Thing is, as I am saying in the storytelling thread, now that Dr. Manhattan is revealed, will the show become the Dr. Manhattan show now?

I mean in GoT, the dragons ended up stealing most of the show. Will that happen now in Watchmen?

I don’t think so. The series is really about Angela and her arc.

Plus there’s one episode left.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/watchmen-post-credits-scene-explained-1260592?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_source=m.facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=m.facebook.com&utm_medium=referral

Thanks Paul. And I looked this up:
.
Link – How That Post-Credits Scene Sets Up The Endgame

I thought it was really good, loved the paradox set up with Angela talking to HJ across the time stream. I don’t get why they aren’t showing DM’s face except as Cal (is that supposed to be like “Kal”? ) All told it was a solid episode and made me want to see the finale immediately. I’m not sure where it’s all headed but being a Stephen King has made me well prepared for unhappy and even unsatisfactory endings.

https://www.polygon.com/2019/12/8/21002009/watchmen-episode-8-director-nicole-kassell-eddies-bar-easter-eggs-doctor-manhattan-reveal

See? That interview just confirms what I stated above:

njerry wrote:

I have a feeling when I rewatch this series I’ll discover a few hints that I was too dense to pick up the first time around.

That is, it confirms that I really am DENSE!!

njerry wrote:

That is, it confirms that I really am DENSE!!

Neutron stars are dense.

You are… something more…

It’s obviously going to end with Angela being revealed as Dan Dreiberg and then 40 minutes of Lindelof pointing at the camera and laughing.

Was Yahya playing Doctor Manhattan the entire time?
 
Absolutely. And we wanted to tease that out. That’s why there’s that shot of his hand reaching for his mask, and taking the mask off. You might think in that moment, we might show his face, but the camera stays with his hand. To me, that tease is really an essential step of the storytelling, to keep it mysterious even though people already know. When Doctor Manhattan is fully revealed in the morgue, it’s a wow moment that would have been diluted if we’d shown who he was any earlier. We wanted the emphasis on the reveal. And I also think it’s very important that before he takes Yahya’s form, he’s the Doctor Manhattan of the source comic. And there’s no getting that exactly right for the fans, for everyone. Their internal image is precious to them. What we don’t show allows people’s imaginations to stay true to their own vision. We’re not erasing someone’s version of the source comic.

 
Well that’s an absolutely fuckin’ stupid answer.

I’m not watching it. It might be brilliant but the taste in my mouth over Watchmen and how Alan was treated is too unpleasant, I’m afraid.

— Neil Gaiman (@neilhimself) December 10, 2019

There’s a thread full of replies of people going, “What did DC do to Alan Moore? “. Is there really anybody in the world (well, anybody interested enough in Watchmen to tweet about it) who doesn’t know the story?

I don’t really agree with ganglari.

Calling the tv show a work of genius on par with the original series is a stretch. The original series isn’t that good.
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“on par with”… bitch please… I’m not even a Watchmen uber fan, I actually think it’s a bit overrated, but come on… u_u

That you hate the show so much massively heightens my enjoyment of it.

 

Like massively. You should hate more things!

Anonymous wrote:

That you hate the show so much massively heightens my enjoyment of it.

 

Like massively. You should hate more things!

 
I don’t hate it, it’s just baaaaaaaaaaaad. Good production thankfully… but the writing…
 
I’m legit surprised at how much love it’s getting, I would’ve expected a lot of CB nerds to bitch and moan about it… :shrugs:
 
Oh also, don’t worry, I hate plenty of stuff… kinda sad of you, but eh… your problem.

Let the hate flowwww throoouuuugh yoooooouu

Hey big guy.

Sun’s getting real low.

 

Osterman is a stupid jerk.

 

He is also slow to react.

Not fast enough.

Well, that ended with a wet thud.

A wet thud not unlike a baby squid falling from the sky and hitting the ground.

Overall, I’d give the series a C+. Good actors and production values but the story just wasn’t there.

Interesting…

Lindeloff did it his way

Well this was definitely the best episode of the show, because shit actually happened… crazy, I know. But as a whole, it wasn’t necessarily great, and they telegrpahed that ending a mile away.

In the end, it all just feels trite and pointless… or as they aptly said it twice: a “rerun”, and not the good kind. I’ll give it to Linedlof & co… at least they tied the major stuff in the last episode, but no Lube-man, so that’s an immediate fail… u_u

No but seriously, I was surprised it got an actual ending, and that’s probably for the best, ’cause I doubt this show will get picked up for a S2.

So in the spirit of being fair, let me start with the good in the show:
– The prodcution: Good production, nothing too surprising considering it’s HBO. the FX were decent enough, although they kinda failed with Jon.
– The acting was pretty good overall, solid cast, solid performances… buuuuuuuut*
– The musical choices were rather inspired all the way through, good job on that.
– They had quite a lot of interesting ideas… buuuuuuuuut*

*The bad:
– Regina King: I’m sorry, she might be a good actress and whatnot, but first of all her character was piss-poor writen, so even if RK gave it her all, she wouldn’t have much to work with… but I didn’t feel she was a good choice for a lead either way. It’s a bold choice to go with a middle-aged, plain looking woman for a lead, and that’s commendable I suppose, but in the end she was too pedestrian (again, not entirely her fault). At no point I gave a shit about her story, which is kind of a big issue if you’re gonna build a whole show around it, but that’s entirely the fault of the writing. So let’s talk about the biggest problem:

-the writing: This was a VERY, VERY, VEEEEEEEEERY badly written show. It’s hard to decide where to start with this one… The god fuckin’ awful pace? The cringy dialogue? The completely disjointed narrative? Jeeesus take a pick.

Here’s the sad part though, as I said, the show introduced quite a few neat ideas, but they never cared to develop any of those, which makes me wonder: WHY? That’s neatly represented with Lube-man… if you’re not gonna do anything with him, then WHY?

The plot was weak as fuck, full of filler crap, unfulfilled potential, lots of fan-service, weak-ass villains with weak-ass motives, ugh… such a clustrfuck of a “plot”:
– Adrian’s presence in the show was COMPLETELY unnecessary (filler & fan-service), and while it was fun at the begining, it got old very fast. But fan service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– In the end, Laurie’s presence was COMPLETELY unnecessary as well, and didn’t go anywhere. but you know… fan-service!!!!!!!!
– Let’s not even talk about all those secondary characters like Petey, Russian bro, Aladdin chick, Lube man, panda man, and all those characters that were just… there… like any other masked cop, so I didn’t really see any point in even giving them different costumes and names.
– Mirror guy was a legit interesting character that they also kinda pushed aside. I mean, sure he got more development than Russian bro, but, yeah what a waste. Oh but they did the squid in his back story soooo fan-service!!!!!!!!!!!
– Both villains were weak as fuck. The Racist group?? Ughhhh… it’s so pedestrian and cliché… like a fuckin old Bond movie. And lady Trieu? Wow, what a disappointement she ended up being, another half-assed Bond moustache-twrling villain… oh but she’s Adrian’s daughter sooo fan-service!!!!!!!!!!!!!! laaaaaaaaaame…
– Doc Manhattan: Jesus wept… this is probably the worst thing in the show. They just mis-used him as a jobber, a mere lame plot-point in a weak-ass story. How fuckin’ sad… ohhh but he was black sooo diversityyyyy!!!!!!

Anyways, I think I made my point: writing = shit. The rest, eh… decent to good. It’s not the most terrible TV show I’ve seen, obviously, but it’s soooo badly writen and put together that I can’t just give it a pass… It’s not as lazy as the Mandalorian, but there’s a lot of parallels there: almost non-existant plot. Weak, uninteresting lead characters. CHOKE-FULL of fan-service, etc…
 
Oh and I ain’t even gonna go into the whole racial theme of the show, because I know some people here are a bit sensitive, but yeah, suffice to say those themes were… erm… how can I put it delicatly… hamfisted? oh and incredibly simplistic, which is ironic considering they obviously put a lot of weight in them… =/
 
I’m severly puzzled at how much people are supposedly enjoying this show, and completely flabergasted whenever I see anyone comparing it to the CB. This thing is nowhere near, and not because Watchmen is this amazing untouchable genius work, but because this show was weak as fuck.

Oh and I hope I never read any other complain about Snyder making the heroes fight like super heroes, ’cause fuckin’ Angela had the thickest plot armour and an amazing ability to dodge bullets and hit perfect shots with every bullet… seriously, she takes on an entire squad of KKK militia dudes armed to the teeth and literally doesn’t break a sweat… ooooooooooook…. u_u

I do wonder though… after seeing the title of last episode, it kinda feels like this whole show spawned from Lindelof thinking of a joke: “A god walks into a bar”… Wouldn’t be sruprised…

Best show ever. Made Snyder’s entire body of work look like dry dog poo.

What should have been done differently?

I pretty much agree with all of Jon’s praise and none of his complaints about the show.

After swimming the first 8 episodes on Saturday I had a pretty good idea about what the end would be. I don’t think it was obvious though, it required paying attention and a bit of knowledge about the GN helped.

There was some fan service or easter eggs but nothing that I found distracting or unwarranted to include.

The final confrontation definitely felt VERY comic-booky but considering this is a comic book story, it didn’t bother me much. Laurie’s presence in the 7K lair after the plan was revealed was a bit silly, and I was disappointed Looking Glass didn’t have a bigger part in the foil but overall I’d say they stuck the landing for the show.

I’m torn about another season, I really like Angela but leaving her story hanging might be better than taking a chance seeing it crash and burn in another season.

I give it a B+

I have read on Facebook articles over analyzing the scenes, the full circles of the subplots etc. and to each their own.

Lindeloff said he won’t be in season 2 if there is one, so we might get another approach…

I give it a B but it gets credit for the chances it took, a black storyline POV, shedding light on the massacre that happened in Tulsa, and so on.

Some will nitpick that Manhattan wasn’t that powerful to be trapped like that but so what?

Nitpicking and over analyzing is what it is…

Jon wrote:

Here’s the sad part though, as I said, the show introduced quite a few neat ideas, but they never cared to develop any of those, which makes me wonder: WHY? That’s neatly represented with Lube-man… if you’re not gonna do anything with him, then WHY?

Lube Man’s secret identity is a letdown: The Identity of Watchmen’s Lube Man Has Finally Been Revealed

That’s a pretty cool nugget about Lube man, I never really expected any background on him. Just assumed his presence in the show was to let the audience know there are still masked heroes operating independent of the”official” masked cops.

I mostly enjoyed the show, but I’m not sure if it was actually good…

There were lots of weird choices. The first two episodes felt almost pointless at the end. And focusing an entire episode on Looking glass, who until then felt like a minor character, and after that episode disappeared completely.

The writers tried so hard to hide the main plot from the viewers that they were unable to find it themselves.

‘Watchmen’ Finale: Series Creator Damon Lindelof On Tonight’s End, More Seasons, White Supremacy & Impeachment Of Robert Redford

Lube Man spinoff

Ok, I finally managed to collect the reason the tv series did not add up in the same way the comic book did:

In the comic book, everything that happens is important to the plot. The murder of the Comedian and the investigation into it, the exile of Dr, Manhattan, Rorchach getting captured and rescued, the missing artist, the rising threat of nuclear annihiliation — all of it is either a part of Ozymandias’ plan, or part of an attempt to discover his plan. Everything is connected.

In the tv series, almost nothing that happens is important to the plot. The murder of the police chief is an accident, the rorchach terrorists are a distraction, Ozymandias at the mansion is a weird pointless vacation, Hooded Justice is just an old guy who happens to be related to the main character, racism is a theme but not important to the narrative. Almost everything was incidental to the actual story.

So that’s why the comic book feels dense and great, and the tv series feels surprisingly empty.

Well that’s one of the many things I said… the narrative is excesively disjointed. For exemple, I loved the production and direction on the Hooded Justice flashback episode (in fact, I’d go as far as saying it should earn an award just in terms of technical achievements), but in the end the plot was mostly irrelevant fan-service… It didn’t really add anything to the plot that couldn’t have been established in a couple of lines and scenes.
 
Honestly what bothered me most about the show is that it all came down to Doc and Angela, and at no point did I buy their relationship, Jon’s portrayal, or even Angela’s character for that matter. Didn’t help that they missed the mark on how Jon’s powers & perception work… =/
 
Mirror’s guy set-up was MUCH more interesting than most of the rest of the series, and not just because of the squid, but because it offered a very neat opportunity to focus on the squid showers and the pseudo-religions, paranoias, cults, etc… that would’ve popped up after the squid event, I mean, imagine how that alone would’ve changed society on a world scale. Instead they chose to explore racial tensions, which, fair enough of course, but bleh, been there & done that in a ton of shows… very much a wasted opportunity… and there’s a lot of ideas like that that could’ve been expanded and explored… lots of setups without payoffs.

Well… season 2 if there is one will have a new showrunner so we will get another take on the Watchmen world.

Interesting… the cults and pseudo religions stemming from the squid incident… very interesting.

Also does she walk on the water?
Lube man gets a lube job. Don’t we all? Does Adrien take over Trieu’s empire?

Manhattan could have done more. Like Superman and all the other heroes who could literally change the world.
Benevolent dictator who does little.

Game of Thrones is one of those series where a second or third viewing is very rewarding in that events and statements that made little sense the first time around gain weight and substance with repeated viewings.

While I’m very satisfied with how Watchmen ended, I suspect I’ll appreciate it even more in a second viewing as early actions and words begin to make more sense. I may even get a few “AHA!” moments. And I did like the show enough to watch it again when I have some free time.

What’s next?!

One of the aspects I enjoyed in the writing was that lots of seemingly unimportant details ended up being part of the main plot. It didn’t smack you over the head with it but became apparent during the last two episodes how all of it tied together.

Seeing as how this is a sequel written decades later and not by the original author, it’s pretty solid. (I like the GN but don’t see it as AWESOME as many others do)

 

Al-x wrote:

Manhattan could have done more.

Oh man, don’t even get me started with that whole thing… it annoyed me to no end. First of all, that was touched on the OGN, and it’s quite simple: He just doesn’t care (because he’s become a “god” and why would he?). So that’s a rehashed question, essentially.
 
But beyond that: The old man should’ve been equally upset, or more, with Angela, because he says “he could’ve done more” and yet he ignores the fact that for 10 years his grandaughter kept him “chained” to her just because they were in love, so basically kept a god all to herself for selfish reasons… so Angela could’ve done more as well surely, no?
 
And btw, that whole relationship is an issue that just didn’t work, partly because of that: So, supposedly Jon and Angela fall in love, okay fine, I didn’t buy it but whatever… by using Adrian’s device, he’s erasing his memory, right? So what’s the point? What’s the point of staying with someone who’s not even the person you fell in love with? That’s even more selfish of Angela.
 
Also,when he’s in the bar, supposedly Jon has no memories of those 10 years, yet when he re-becomes blue he DOES remember those 10 years, so that whole thing doesn’t work… ugh… they fucked it up too much… u_u

It was never stated that the device would prevent him from remembering so I think it still works story wise. The bigger issue (the GN suffers this as well)  is trying to write a character that perceives time the way Dr M does. When you try to write the impossible into a “real” world setting, it gets pretty messy.

Andy wrote:

It was never stated that the device would prevent him from remembering

Yeah no wait, I explained myself badly… What I meant is, the device “wipes” his mind while he’s using it, so in the bar (in the past) he tells Angela he doesn’t know what happens in those 10 years… but he knows what happens once the device is removed (tragedy), but that doesn’t make sense, because we see him still remembering his life as Cal once the device is off, so in theory, in the past, he should still be experiencing those flooding memories. Point being, in the past, he should still be able to know what happens in those 10 years, via the memories he gets back once the device is out of his head… (also I’m pretty sure he mentions having adopted kids, which he wouldn’t know if he really didn’t know what happens in those 10 years).
 
Anyways, yeah, I’m probably nitpicking, BUT if you’re gonna focus a whole episode on that, you should at least get it right… u_u

It seems like a lot of the complaints about Manhattan were also present in the original story.

Remember, he’s shaking John F. Kennedy’s hand and remembering his assassination in the future and does nothing to prevent it. I have always gotten the sense that Doctor Manhattan isn’t nearly as all-powerful as most people believe. He exists in such a state that the arrow of time goes both ways with him, and he can remember the future just like he remembers the past, but he can no more alter his own future than we can alter our own pasts. The events in the future have already played out for him.

And his relationship with Angela played out similarly to how it did with Laurie in the comics, where, from the moment he meets he knows how their relationship will play out.

All in all, I think Lindelof did a bang-up job on this. It was more successful than it had any right to be. And this is one of those things that would be really ease to fuck up.

The only real issue I had with the squid rain at the end. I don’t think those little frozen squids would nearly the amount of damage we were shown. Unless Adrian was firing them out of a cannon, the terminal velocity they would achieve in freefall wouldn’t be anywhere near enough to punch a hole through someone’s hand or collapse Trieu’s tower (unless it was crafted from aluminum foil and balsa wood).

Isn’t that the point of manhattan though?  He perceives his own past, present and future at the same time but it’s still “happening” to him at that specific time.  So he can perceive that he has a blackout of memories, but he doesn’t experience those memories.  Likewise he can perceive memory recall but he can’t access those memories … until such time as he can.

But even if that’s not correct, Moore himself offers an easy out with all of Dr Manhattan’s timey-wimeyness that covers this – “Everything is pre-ordained. Even my responses”.

Ultimately I thought the show was fine.  It was a good attempt by Lindelof and not a total abject failure.  It was never going to equal the graphic novel and that’s probably a big component as to why Lindelof wanted to do a new story.  It’s probably a worthier companion to the Graphic novel than any of the Before/After Watchmen stuff that DC put out, but that’s obviously subjective.  Not to poke the bear, but I certainly thought it was better than the film.

Unlike Jon, I enjoyed the racial elements.  It seems like a direct response to Moore’s comments about DW Griffiths Birth of a Nation and the whiteness of the genre.  It’s also a knowing reference to the the political theme of divisiveness, which can be said to be a prominent political them of our time .  This is similar in approach to the way that the original novel dealt with the cold war for 1985.

Anonymous wrote:

Not to poke the bear, but I certainly thought it was better than the film.

No surprises there…

Probably because the film isn’t very good.

The film is fucking awesome and I’ll tell you why.. SHUT UP! That’s why.

Andy wrote:

The film is fucking awesome and I’ll tell you why.. SHUT UP! That’s why.

Eh, not your best sales pitch.

Possible mass grave from 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre found by researchers

Jason wrote:

The only real issue I had with the squid rain at the end. I don’t think those little frozen squids would nearly the amount of damage we were shown. Unless Adrian was firing them out of a cannon, the terminal velocity they would achieve in freefall wouldn’t be anywhere near enough to punch a hole through someone’s hand or collapse Trieu’s tower (unless it was crafted from aluminum foil and balsa wood).

Coincidentally, the upper level of the George Washington Bridge (connecting Manhattan to northern New Jersey) was completely shut down this morning for a couple of hours because ice that had formed on the cables during an overnight winter storm had begun to melt, and there were concerns about the damage the falling ice chunks could cause to pedestrians and vehicles.

I really do like the film a lot. Other than Kick-Ass it’s probably the comic movie adaptation I’ve rewatched the most as an adult. (I worn out 2 copies of Superman on VHS as a kid)

I think a lot of people slam it because of the change to Adrian’s plan. I had never read the GN when I saw the movie so I didn’t have any preconceived notions about what I should or shouldn’t be getting.

Even after reading the GN I still think the film gets it right more than it doesn’t.  There isn’t much I don’t like about it. There’s a few bits of clunky dialogue but the story and overall tone work really well. Especially when you compare it to other formulaic popcorn superhero movies.

Contrary to assumptions i didnt gsye rhe film.  It has a really great opening with the like a rolling stone montage and it manages to do a lot in the time it does. A lot of the characters are faint simulacrums of who they are in the GN (Adrian, Edward, Laurie, Rorscach) and I’m generally not a fan of the colour palette and some other of choices.

Otherwise i’s fine, in the same way adaptations like the Dredd movies are fine. I thought the TV show has more depth.

Anonymous wrote:

Contrary to assumptions i didnt gsye rhe film.

Well that’s cleared that up.

Well I didn’t gsye rhe film. 

I thought film was gfrrrrgh

Anonymous wrote:

Well I didn’t gsye rhe film. 

I thought film was gfrrrrgh

Tim, have you seen a doctor? I think you have been having a series of strokes.

I like bits of the film but it’s clear that key people involved don’t really get the tone of the comic or get the characters. Rorschach was treated pretty sympathetically, and shown as more of a hero than he deserves.

Dan and Laurie are basically out of practice schlubs, and when they bust Rorschach out of prison there is literally just one panel of them throwing punches at two weedy, rioting prisoners but in the film it’s this massive, balletic fight sequence. Everyone in the film appears to have super-strength, durability and agility akin to a low level super-soldier.

(And I can’t forgive the film for having Dan refer to the team as The Watchmen.)

Andrew wrote:

Everyone in the film appears to have super-strength, durability and agility akin to a low level super-soldier.

I don’t think I’ll ever agree with that critisism… people forget movies are made for all audiences, there are certain things that have to be communicated in certain ways to make things clearer for people, particularly in a movie like this… Pretty much the same goes for the more modern costumes… It’s not as if Sister Night was protrayed very realistically on the show either (for the same reasons)… But oh well…

What does that even mean? What is being made clear by them having abilities far beyond normal people when they’re supposed to be be retired and out of shape!

But Sister Night is a trained, operational law enforcement officer. Dan has been out of practice for years; he’s chubby and unfit. He should look dorky in his little owl suit.

They should look ridiculous (maybe Rorschach can get away with looking cool because it’s a simple “costume”, but should still be visibly dirty, looking like a drunk who spent the night in the gutter) – I mean the movie costumes still do, but they should look worse; certainly not cool.

The whole point of it is that they’re not superheroes (apart from Manhattan) – they’re regular folks with sick minds and all kind of pathetic and disturbing in their own ways, but the film seems to have portrayed them all as superheroes.

Yeah but as a movie, it needs other things, like being appealing to people. They did the dorky costumes for the OG Minutemen that you see in the intro montage, but you can’t have a dorky Niteowl because you run the risk of people thinking it’s a parody of some sort, or that the chacracters are supposed to be pathetic… and yes, they’re a bit pathetic, but they ARE legit comicbook heroes, these ain’t just some 2-bit amateurs dressing up, like in Kick Ass, these are people who were active for a while and know their shit very well… in fact:
 

Andrew wrote:

Dan has been out of practice for years; he’s chubby and unfit.

 
And yet he still kicks the shit out of the punks, even if he gets winded… at no point was he in danger or out of control. So yeah, he might be chubby and unfit, but he knows what he’s doing and he can still do it very well… oh and btw, in one panel Laurie breaks a guy’s arm by crushing it between her elbow and knee… that’s pretty frickin’ superhuman if you ask me…
 
Point being that, since it’s a movie for all audiences, you have to make certain visual shurtcuts, so yes, in the movie they look a lot cooler because otherwise you risk a lot of people getting the wrong impression. Same goes for the fighting scenes… I don’t care there’s only 2 panels and in the movie it’s a whole sequence, because Moore didn’t really intend them to be fat old loosers, they’re just retired (and Dan’s out of shape) but they’re still very much “heroes”, that’s kind of the point in the CB. So yeah, the “superhuman” action conveys that very quickly…
 
For exemple, right off the bat, when Adrian kills the comedian, you see the comedian punch through walls… why? well because the movie wants you to know that old man is not just a regular old man, it wants you to start asking “wait, who is this guy”, it wants you to understand this isn’t a random mugging… So yeah, the fight is more brutal and superhuman, so there’s little doubt of what’s going on in the scene. Same goes for the punk fight and the prison scene… it’s one way of saying “yes, they’re retired, but they’re still very much capable of doing their thing… they’re not just some random old fat amateurs in PJ’s”…
 
And there’s one last thing… when you’ve seen them fight like that throughout the movie, and then they get to Adrian and confront him, you need to quickly make people understand that Adrian is A LOT BETTER than them, so that the bullet catch ain’t just a stupid gimmick… you really need to believe Adrian is fast and strong enough to do that, so powering all of them up a bit helps a lot when comparing them to Adrian later on. Now, sure you might not agree with any of this, but I think it’s very much a valid way of doing things in the context of a movie for general audiences.
 
Now, if you believe Watchmen is about some regular joes who put on costumes for shits and giggles, you’re wrong, or at least partially because while the OG minutemen might have been, the new generation are very much not that (I mean, Adrian CATCHES A FUCKING BULLET for fuck’s sake!!!!), but if that’s the case, I can’t really help you there =P
 
So yeah, anyways, I’ll never agree with this weird idea that the heores in Watchmen are just some regular normal people. No they’re not, they were never intended to be… sure they don’t have super powers (mostly) but that doesn’t make them “normal & regular”… unless you also believe Batman is realistic.
 
Edit: forgot something:
 

Andrew wrote:

But Sister Night is a trained, operational law enforcement officer. Dan has been out of practice for years; he’s chubby and unfit.

 
Sorry man, not to body-shame Regina King or anyhting, but she’s clearly chubby as well… she’s a “regular” middle-aged woman, and she’s not in “peak physical condtion”. Neither is the fat russian dude… u_u

“Motherf*cker”

Watchmen is Jurassic Park nostalgic:

“Dinosaurs eat man. Woman inherits the earth.”

Yaaaay Bernadette!

WATCHMEN the show was something like a sequel to the comic book and also something like the relationship between the show MR.ROBOT and the movie FIGHT CLUB. That show obviously takes the basic elements of the movie even though it is not overtly set in the same world and updates it to the current culture and its conflicts. I think I would have preferred something original and disconnected from the comic but dealing with similar ideas.

FARGO the show might be a better comparison. It is ostensibly set in the same world of the movie but is its own thing much more than WATCHMEN ends up being.

I dunno… the more I think about the show, the less I like it… such a wasted opportunity… lots of really great ideas that got squandered in favour of a more mundande race issues tale and trite fan-fiction… honestly it didn’t even feel like the same world, I wouldn’t even call it a “sequel”… oh well… u_u

Jon wrote:

I dunno… the more I think about the show, the less I like it… such a wasted opportunity… lots of really great ideas that got squandered in favour of a more mundande race issues tale and trite fan-fiction… honestly it didn’t even feel like the same world, I wouldn’t even call it a “sequel”… oh well… u_u

I think that is a bit of the problem it faced. It was a sequel to a comic that everyone heard of but only a few people have actually read that was made into a movie that not a lot of people have seen, liked or remember. It didn’t really look like the comic and it certainly didn’t look like the movie. Unlike FARGO, there is not a shared tone with the film and it does depart substantially from the story in the comic.

Did anyone think that all the improbable coincidences in Angela Abar’s life were sufficiently explained by the end?

Anonymous wrote:

Did anyone think that all the improbable coincidences in Angela Abar’s life were sufficiently explained by the end?

What, do you mean that horrid “thermodynamic miracles” fan-service quote didn’t satisfy you as an explanation????
 
There is no appropriate emoticon on this forum to convey my disdain for that quote on the show… way to cheapen the shit out of that beautfiul concept in order to justify some lazy writing… good job!
 
Also: I really need an eye-rolling and a vomiting emoticon… =P