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The Dutch high council of law recently made euthanasia in cases of dementia legal by refusing to prosecute a doctor who euthanized a patient for this reason. At the patient’s request obviously.

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lorcan_nagle wrote:

Ben wrote:

Well, probably so many awful examples JR but the one Twitter red flagged was him using the line “when the looting starts, the shooting starts”, as it was glorifying violence.

It’s also quoting an openly racist police chief who opposed the civil rights movement in the 60s.

Thanks, had seen pieces of it elsewhere but nothing went into who that infamous quote came from.

JRCarter wrote:

Read the tweet. He also refers to the protestors as thugs and since thug is considered code for a certain word that begins with N and rhymes with “trigger”…

I have a very successful and beneficial policy of avoiding Twitter.  This is especially the case where Trump is concerned.  I know he’s an arsehole, I don’t require further evidence of that.

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JRCarter wrote:

thug is considered code for a certain word that begins with N and rhymes with “trigger”…

Seriously? Has this always been true? I thought thug just meant …. “thug”.

Maybe it’s just an American usage?

DavidM wrote:

JRCarter wrote:

thug is considered code for a certain word that begins with N and rhymes with “trigger”…

Seriously? Has this always been true? I thought thug just meant …. “thug”.

Maybe it’s just an American usage?

It’s a more recent development.

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DavidM wrote:

JRCarter wrote:

thug is considered code for a certain word that begins with N and rhymes with “trigger”…

Seriously? Has this always been true? I thought thug just meant …. “thug”.

Maybe it’s just an American usage?

In the US especially, Thug has come to be used only to describe Black people and is increasingly used in  fashion where less socially accepted terms would have been used in the past.

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JRCarter, Ben

News to me too.

This feels appropriate:

Yes, that would seem to describe the mindsets of the cops rioting and causing mayhem and serious injuries all over the country.

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I was more talking about the White Nationalists who, according to people in all levels in government, Republican and Democrat, who are infiltrating the protests, and are finding more radical African-Americans, and using them to do violence of their own, making it look that more African-Americans are violent then the very small minority that are, and confusing people in an active violent, stressful situation, who did what, so as to put blame on African-Americans. They  can’t be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. They just want to watch the world burn.   I know most legitimate protests are non-violent, but, to reverse a statement  from Trump, there are very bad people on both sides. Does that negate the non-violent protests? No. Does that label one group as bad? No, I said that most African-Americans are Non-Violent, and those that are have racists pretending to be “allies” confusing the issue. Does that justify the murder of George Floyd? Absolutely, emphatically not.

Kalman, are there any quotes you can pull from Dems or Republican officials about this?

“We are now confronting white supremacists, members of organized crime, out of state instigators, and possibly even foreign actors to destroy and destabilize our city and our region….”

– Minneapolis Mayor Frey  (D)

“Our great cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul are under assault by people who do not share our values, who do not value life and the work that went into this and are certainly not here to honor George Floyd……”

-Minnesota Governor Walz (D)

I’ve heard that both the NYC Mayor and NYS Governor   say they suspect the same thing is happening in the protests here, but they aren’t confirming it. 

Sen. Rubio, while not disagreeing with Trump and Barr that Antifa is at least a part of it, tweeted that racially motivated hijackers are also a part, saying:

“WE KNOW we have nations who actively exacerbate preexisting divisions in America. WE KNOW we have far-left groups who support violent protest. WE KNOW we have ethnic nationalists who promote race based conflict. And no reason to believe any of them are taking the weekend off….”

 

 

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DavidM

Thanks!

I’m not sure if those quotes are suggesting that there are White Nationalists who are using African-Americans to incite violence, but your point is made.

There are people who promote conflict and choose to excite turmoil.

Really, my point is that everyone is pretty sure that some people who really don’t care about George Floyd are using this as an excuse to riot. Different people point to different groups, depending on their political aims, but this one happens to ring true for me, since Gov. Walz pointed out that there’s a loose White Supremacist group called accelerationists that has been underground for a while, but what we know about them is that their manifesto calls for   these  kind of tactics, and the FBI alerted all the States’ appropriate officials  that accelerationist activity online has spiked, and they thought  they would use the COVID protests as a cover, but Floyd protests would actually be a “better” target in their view, according to  Minnesota’s brief.

Not only that, but the violent protesters here marched over the Brooklyn Bridge into Brooklyn, and stopped in the neighborhood of Flatbush . By definition, White Supremacists are as Anti-Semitic as they are racist, and parts of  Flatbush are very Jewish, so I’m a bit suspicious as to why they went there; it’s a bit out of the way (but Crown Heights and Williamsburg are also very Jewish, and are closer to the bridge, so IDK).

Well, one thing is for sure, there are large groups of right-wing extremists in the US who would like to see the world burn; the prepper scene and all that. Those people see the US government as a dictatorship, a yoke to the thrown off, so they want a revolution. I think it’s quite possible that there are also people from those groups who are trying to incite further violence during the rioting going on right now.

However, Kalman, I wouldn’t go down the road of attributing too much power to these groups and people, or see them as responsible for what is going on right now. When it comes to these issues, the US has always been a powder keg, and Trump has encouraged the systemic racism that was in place anyway over recent years. Add to that how much people are hurting economically because of the current crisis, and it really doesn’t need much of a spark for things to really blow up.

I think that the obvious explanation here is rather more likely than shadowy accelerationists calling the shots. I don’t doubt they’re real, or active, but I doubt how much they can actually influence the current situation.

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Anonymous wrote:

there’s a loose White Supremacist group called accelerationists

Look, this sort of thing is absolute bullshit.  Accelerationsim is a political stance where you don’t think the current system can be reformed to your ideals and instead must be dismantled or destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up.  There is no group called “accelerationists”, but there are accelerationist groups on the left and the right.

Christian wrote:

Well, one thing is for sure, there are large groups of right-wing extremists in the US who would like to see the world burn; the prepper scene and all that. Those people see the US government as a dictatorship, a yoke to the thrown off, so they want a revolution

Or they want to be the ones with their hands on the yoke a lot of the time.  Note how many people who supported the anti COVID-19 protests are all in on POC and left-wing protestors getting the shit beat out of them by the cops.

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Oh, sure, when it comes to what these guys imagine the world to be like post-revolution, I think their concept of freedom may turn out to be max freedom for themselves and… less much for certain other groups.

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lorcan_nagle

This is a thing:

Police targeted journalists covering the George Floyd protests

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JRCarter wrote:

This is a thing:

Police targeted journalists covering the George Floyd protests

This is my surprised face.

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JRCarter wrote:

This is a thing:

Police targeted journalists covering the George Floyd protests

Apparently the journalists were getting attacked from both sides — police and protesters alike were abusing members of the press and television news.

You’ll see Kendrick Sampson in Black, on the front lines being hit repeatedly by a cop with a baton pic.twitter.com/Iq8SbB6v76

— TEE FRANKLIN WANTS YOU TO SAY BLACK NOT POC (@MizTeeFranklin) May 30, 2020

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There are now two all white armed vigilante groups roaming Fishtown with the blessing of the @phillypolice pic.twitter.com/csGWCDZ6Nw

— Josh Albert (@jpegjoshua) June 1, 2020

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lorcan_nagle wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

there’s a loose White Supremacist group called accelerationists

Look, this sort of thing is absolute bullshit.  Accelerationsim is a political stance where you don’t think the current system can be reformed to your ideals and instead must be dismantled or destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up.  There is no group called “accelerationists”, but there are accelerationist groups on the left and the right.

Christian wrote:

Well, one thing is for sure, there are large groups of right-wing extremists in the US who would like to see the world burn; the prepper scene and all that. Those people see the US government as a dictatorship, a yoke to the thrown off, so they want a revolution

Or they want to be the ones with their hands on the yoke a lot of the time.  Note how many people who supported the anti COVID-19 protests are all in on POC and left-wing protestors getting the shit beat out of them by the cops.

It could be two things, Lorcan. It could be bad reporting/communication by Gov. Walz.    Based on  the report and what you said, I am lead to  think the following: There was  Na major neo-Nazi who did write a screed explaining that white supremacists should adopt accelerationist methods. He was rejected by even other white supremacists as too extreme, but some bought into his ideas. They’ve been disorganized, but there is evidence they’ve been organizing on the deep web during covid lockdowns, and they  see the Floyd protests as an opportunity to be the first target for their terrorism.

Troops deployed in Washington DC. 

Flappy Orange Meat: “I am also taking swift and decisive action to protect our capital, Washington DC … As we speak, I am dispatching thousands and thousands of heavily armed soldiers, military personnel and law enforcement officers to stop the rioting, looting, vandalism, assaults and wanton destruction of property. We are putting everybody on warning.”

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lorcan_nagle

Anonymous wrote:

Troops deployed in Washington DC. 

Flappy Orange Meat: “I am also taking swift and decisive action to protect our capital, Washington DC … As we speak, I am dispatching thousands and thousands of heavily armed soldiers, military personnel and law enforcement officers to stop the rioting, looting, vandalism, assaults and wanton destruction of property. We are putting everybody on warning.”

When I was living upstate, Obama came unannounced. The area he was in was cordoned off, guarded by the Secret Service. People were angry, and wanted an ad hoc peaceful protest outside of the cordoned area, saying that POTUS should not come unannounced,  but the actions of the Secret Service there made them afraid- they thought the Service would think their ad hoc organization was people trying to rush the cordon and attack  Pres. Obama and would be justified in using lethal force. Even if that wasn’t true, the Service should have realized that people would be upset, and made sure not to act in any way that was threatening. They couldn’t tell the Service of their intentions because speaking to a member of the Service resulted in the Service person putting his or hand to draw their weapon and being told to shut up. Total disregard of the Right of Redress of Grievances.  There was a synagogue inside the cordoned area, and if Pres. Obama had come an hour later, people would have missed scheduled services, violating the first amendment, the possibility of which could have been  avoided if they had announced that POTUS was coming, if the Service had realized that there was a place of worship near where Pres. Obama would be. Reckless disregard for Freedom of Religion.

So Obama showed up somewhere, his entourage didn’t take any action to restrain people, and their schedules would have been slightly upset if he had arrived at a different time to when he actually did?

Yeah, I don’t think this is the same thing.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Troops deployed in Washington DC. 

Flappy Orange Meat: “I am also taking swift and decisive action to protect our capital, Washington DC … As we speak, I am dispatching thousands and thousands of heavily armed soldiers, military personnel and law enforcement officers to stop the rioting, looting, vandalism, assaults and wanton destruction of property. We are putting everybody on warning.”

When I was living upstate, Obama came unannounced. The area he was in was cordoned off, guarded by the Secret Service. People were angry, and wanted an ad hoc peaceful protest outside of the cordoned area, saying that POTUS should not come unannounced,  but the actions of the Secret Service there made them afraid- they thought the Service would think their ad hoc organization was people trying to rush the cordon and attack  Pres. Obama and would be justified in using lethal force. Even if that wasn’t true, the Service should have realized that people would be upset, and made sure not to act in any way that was threatening. They couldn’t tell the Service of their intentions because speaking to a member of the Service resulted in the Service person putting his or hand to draw their weapon and being told to shut up. Total disregard of the Right of Redress of Grievances.  There was a synagogue inside the cordoned area, and if Pres. Obama had come an hour later, people would have missed scheduled services, violating the first amendment, the possibility of which could have been  avoided if they had announced that POTUS was coming, if the Service had realized that there was a place of worship near where Pres. Obama would be. Reckless disregard for Freedom of Religion.

At least Obama didn’t teargas peaceful protestors just so he could walk to a church.

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This MF…… https://t.co/6jRZJbPerm

— ICE T (@FINALLEVEL) May 31, 2020

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Someone has been feeding him Nixon lines.

Fuck right off Roger Stone and Bannon and all the rest and take Trumpy McTrashcan Man with you way out beyond the sea.

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Todd, Will_C, Ben

I heard due to the corona lockdown a lot of people in nursing homes basically voluntarily ended their lives by refusing food and water as protest.

Anonymous wrote:

It could be two things, Lorcan. It could be bad reporting/communication by Gov. Walz.    Based on  the report and what you said, I am lead to  think the following: There was  Na major neo-Nazi who did write a screed explaining that white supremacists should adopt accelerationist methods. He was rejected by even other white supremacists as too extreme, but some bought into his ideas. They’ve been disorganized, but there is evidence they’ve been organizing on the deep web during covid lockdowns, and they  see the Floyd protests as an opportunity to be the first target for their terrorism.

I mean, it’s bad reporting/communication, no two things about it.  There are uncorroborated reports of white nationalists taking part in the riots to try and make black people look worse, but the same has been said for radical anarchists and the cops.  Oddly the only one that I’ve seen any evidence for is the cops.

To be brutally honest, the pattern of white nationalist violence is that they’re far more likely to use their own rallies as an excuse to beat up on counter-protestors, or just go out and kill some black people. There’s no need for elaborate conspiracy theories when there’s plenty of well-documented awfulness in that corner of the world.

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Todd

The news often highlight negative things. It is good to keep in mind most people involved in the whole mess are not violent and just want what is best for everybody…there are places on the internet that just try to scare people and get people upset, maybe as some kind of sick joke or as part of some political agenda. Twitter is also not a very good place to hang out right now.

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It could be two things, Lorcan. It could be bad reporting/communication by Gov. Walz.    Based on  the report and what you said, I am lead to  think the following: There was  Na major neo-Nazi who did write a screed explaining that white supremacists should adopt accelerationist methods. He was rejected by even other white supremacists as too extreme, but some bought into his ideas. They’ve been disorganized, but there is evidence they’ve been organizing on the deep web during covid lockdowns, and they  see the Floyd protests as an opportunity to be the first target for their terrorism.

I mean, it’s bad reporting/communication, no two things about it.  There are uncorroborated reports of white nationalists taking part in the riots to try and make black people look worse, but the same has been said for radical anarchists and the cops.  Oddly the only one that I’ve seen any evidence for is the cops.

To be brutally honest, the pattern of white nationalist violence is that they’re far more likely to use their own rallies as an excuse to beat up on counter-protestors, or just go out and kill some black people. There’s no need for elaborate conspiracy theories when there’s plenty of well-documented awfulness in that corner of the world.

TBH, I have a vested interest in using that explanation, even as a possibility. There is some  racism among Orthodox Jews, which I have  been fighting for years, but now the racists among us are using the riots as an excuse to proselytize their views to others. There’s two things I’ve been doing: telling their targets about a certain quote from the Zohar that casts racism as “the way of the wicked”, which usually gets people to stop listening to them, but to shut the racists up I say “Haven’t you seen white people looting? Why are they there? Do you really think all of them are allies to African-Americans? There’s a real possibility that these are people who are trying to make them look bad. And  even if you agree with that, those people may be Neo-Nazis, who hate us, too, so no matter how you feel, shut up, because if that’s true they may be coming for us next; even if you’re racist, if you’re Jewish, this is not the kind of racism you want to support.” And it works; they usually shut up saying that despite their views, it’s not smart to support that kind of racism, because it could damage our own interests; They are not stupid enough not to recognize that once I bring in the possibility of being compared to Neo-Nazis, no Jew can take them seriously.

I don’t think there’s a “kind” of racism to support regardless of a person’s religion. The very idea is repugnant. I don’t give two fucks what fairytale they subscribe to, racist is racist.

 

 

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No, that’s my point; I’m using our history to make them even more repugnant to the non-racist majority, to the point that even the racists are realizing that once I bring it up, nobody will listen to them; I don’t want them to get even one person emotional enough that they take their side.

It is your point, and it is certainly worth you remembering as you’ve identified it within your community.  Religion can be used as a crux to justify human rights abuses and has for centuries.

Racism IS racism and needs to be denounced at every opportunity.

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JRCarter, Todd

Canadian PM Justin Trudeau was asked for his reaction to U.S. President Donald Trump’s threat to use the military to suppress George Floyd protests while tear-gassing peaceful demonstrators near the White House.
And then a second question: “If you don’t want to comment, what message do you think you are sending?”

Trudeau stared at the camera, for 21 seconds.

The 21 seconds of silence that said everything about Canada’s reaction to Trump – opinion (that was my first search result)

So I get wanting to get the answer perfect, and not wanting to antagonize an ally publicly, but he’s not one to get caught caught flat-footed.
Did they not prep him on this? Did the teleprompter go on the fritz at that moment?

Bullshit. That silence spoke volumes. Said it without saying it.

Canadian media is really letting us know it’s sorry for jumping on the coverage of the violence, and really trying to show the protesters (peaceful ones) point of view.
It’s that there’s a real feeling that this needs to change. Now. Enough is enough.

I support the protests, just not the violence.
What a time for it to happen as I support social distancing (and saving lives) but you can’t let go of this.
We’re two decades into the 21st century and it’s still happening.
Say No!

And I could actually keep typing but going more into opinion than news.
Really hoping that racist moron is removed from office and soon.

What a year. Thankfully it’s over soon.
Oh what? June?

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You have got to be a special kind of asshole:

Video shows police destroying medical station at North Carolina protest; mayor looks for answers

A MEDICAL STATION!!!

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JRCarter wrote:

You have got to be a special kind of asshole: Video shows police destroying medical station at North Carolina protest; mayor looks for answers A MEDICAL STATION!!!

They’ve been smashing up water stations and confiscating or destroying food and other supplies too.  I guess this is “deescalation”

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It’s good to see law enforcement is still “meeting expectations” of the people.

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Movement to defund police gains ‘unprecedented’ support across US

Maybe this is what needs to happen.

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It’s Time To Bust Police Unions

So, maybe, instead of “Fuck Tha Police”, Ice Cube should have written “Fuck Tha Police Unions”.

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Just about an hour ago, police officers shove man in Niagara Square to the ground (WARNING: Graphic). Video from: @MikeDesmondWBFO pic.twitter.com/JBKQLvzfET

— WBFO (@WBFO) June 5, 2020

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Less than a day afte many officers knelt to peaceful protesters at virtually the same spot.

Not a great look.

Deescalation doesnt really seem to be consistent.

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Todd

They’ll say following a confrontation he tripped and fell.

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lorcan_nagle

The two officers have been suspended.

I know that might frustrate people but under what would be normal employment law under most jurisdictions, you need an investigation before terminating someone for irresponsible conduct.

It doesnt do much to limit what appears to be a completely dispassionate police unit in that video, i admit.

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Anonymous wrote:

They’ll say following a confrontation he tripped and fell.

Yeah, men in their 70s have no sense of balance.

The saddest part of that video is that one officer appears to be stopping to help the man, and another officer grabs his back and moves him away.

It’s important to remember that not every police officer is a violent emotionless racist, just as every protester is not a looter arsonist cop-killer.

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Sean Robinson

For future reference where there is generalisation for any discussion of any group generally speaking in general cut and paste this:

 

“_not all_”

Entire 57-member Buffalo police team resigns to support officers who pushed over 75-year-old man

Fifty-seven assholes.

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Damn, gonna have to amend my view that the only good cops are the ones who resign during all this shit.

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JRCarter wrote:

Entire 57-member Buffalo police team resigns to support officers who pushed over 75-year-old man

Fifty-seven assholes.

To be clear, they resigned from the Special Response Team, not the force.

“Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders,” Evans, said in a statement.

So you were order to shove old men to the ground and injure them?

What a bunch of assholes.

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Will_C wrote:

Damn, gonna have to amend my view that the only good cops are the ones who resign during all this shit.

Apparently 6 cops are quitting the NYPD every day right now thanks to burnout that’s being exacerbated by the protests and riots.

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JRCarter wrote:

Fifty-seven assholes.

Or 57 conflicted police officers who feel compelled to do what their Union leaders are telling them to do.

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Todd wrote:

So you were order to shove old men to the ground and injure them?

And just walk past an injured, bleeding old man instead of helping him?

Yeah, I am sure those were exactly their orders.

Plus, hey, yeah, “We were just executing orders” is a great excuse. Can’t think of a scenario in which that didn’t sound great.

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They may have had oders to supress by any means.

I dont thjnknanyone here disagrees that what we saw in that video was excessive force, but I agree with Jerry that this is as much about the desktop despots giving orders as much as it isbthe on duty officers following them.

Its clearly an institutional issue at multiple levels.

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Anonymous wrote:

I dont thjnknanyone here disagrees that what we saw in that video was excessive force, but I agree with Jerry that this is as much about the desktop despots giving orders as much as it isbthe on duty officers following them.

Generally speaking with many of the things going on, it certainly is. But in this instance… the excessive force isn’t even my issue here. I mean, okay, benefit of the doubt would be the guy misjudged the force with which he pushed the man, and that old people may not be able to catch themselves in the way someone younger would. Pushing someone who is doing nothing offensive is excessive force, but I could live with that if as soon as the man hits the ground, the guy had said “Shit, I’m sorry, Sir” and jumped to his side to offer help.

What we see is a multitude of people milling past him without caring that somebody is lying bleeding on the ground. I don’t think there were specific orders to not help a bleeding, unconscious old man, which should be both the natural reaction and the reaction of any cop, no matter what his orders concerning other matters are.

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It may be a telling thing too that the ones that attended to him eventually were in combat fatigues, I assume some National Guard members. So are the police being trained to be more militaristic than the actual military?

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garjones wrote:

It may be a telling thing too that the ones that attended to him eventually were in combat fatigues, I assume some National Guard members. So are the police being trained to be more militaristic than the actual military?

I think it’s a case of soldiers getting more training than the police in general.  Plus a lot of the stuff the police do to disperse crowds is a war crime if a soldier does it.

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Christian wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I dont thjnknanyone here disagrees that what we saw in that video was excessive force, but I agree with Jerry that this is as much about the desktop despots giving orders as much as it isbthe on duty officers following them.

Generally speaking with many of the things going on, it certainly is. But in this instance… the excessive force isn’t even my issue here. I mean, okay, benefit of the doubt would be the guy misjudged the force with which he pushed the man, and that old people may not be able to catch themselves in the way someone younger would. Pushing someone who is doing nothing offensive is excessive force, but I could live with that if as soon as the man hits the ground, the guy had said “Shit, I’m sorry, Sir” and jumped to his side to offer help.

What we see is a multitude of people milling past him without caring that somebody is lying bleeding on the ground. I don’t think there were specific orders to not help a bleeding, unconscious old man, which should be both the natural reaction and the reaction of any cop, no matter what his orders concerning other matters are.

I agree, which is why i said general suppression orders.

Its a clear lack of compassion from the unit and they are meant to serve, right? Presumably they thought all that had to be done was “call a medic”.

But I suspect their commanding officers have stressed a wartime, singular focus battle for the streets mindset, and I get that from their movement. What your orders are affects your focus on how you perform your duties.

Im saying its both. Not either or. The CO’s who instructed the on duty officers to behave in that oppressive manner, and are just as culpable.

To Gars point:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/magazine/2020/06/05/protests-washington-dc-federal-agents-law-enforcement-302551

Unrelated,I think its a little hyperbolic to say that police dispersion of crowds would be a war crime under the ICC. Im pretty mired in this space and have been for years, as anyone who follows me on facebook may be aware of. Perhaps under use of poison weapons, but I’m not convinced.
Irrespective of that, police behaviour in America is often clearly an abuse of the authority given.

NYT says the protests are coalescing into a more organised movement, as they keep growing and being held peacefully.
In stark contrast, Trump is walling himself in, shaking and steaming in anger and fear at these people he does not understand.

Passionate but peaceful crowds took to American streets as protests cohered into a movement.
Demonstrations across the United States, which began as spontaneous eruptions of outrage after the death of George Floyd at the hands of the Minneapolis police less than two weeks ago, appeared to have cohered by Saturday into a nationwide movement protesting systemic racism.

Thousands marched in big cities like New York and Seattle, and tighter groups in small towns like Vidor, Texas; Havre, Mont.; and Marion, Ohio, denouncing a broken law enforcement system marked by racial injustice.

The outpouring of activism came at a time when the coronavirus pandemic has underscored many deep inequities in society, and has also removed competition for the public’s attention by disrupting work, school and entertainment.

One of the largest protests was in the nation’s capital, where new fences, concrete barriers and a force of unidentifiable guards have shrouded the White House, projecting a new symbolism of militarized defensiveness rather than openness and democracy.

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In Bristol today they pulled down a statue of slave trader Edward Colson and threw it in the sea.

Watch the moment a statue of slave trader Edward Colston is pulled down in Bristol city centre during #BLMbristol pic.twitter.com/B5JuwoN4u6

— ITV News West Country (@itvwestcountry) June 7, 2020

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Andy, Christian, Will_C, Todd, Martin Smith, lorcan_nagle

That’s terrible of them, throwing garbage in the river like that.

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Sean Robinson, DavidM, Todd, Will_C, lorcan_nagle

De Blasio Vows for First Time to Cut Funding for the N.Y.P.D.

Looking at the NYPD’s history of brutality and misconduct, it’s needed to be defunded for some time.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Hmm, looks like torching PDs gets results:

http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-city-council-members-consider-disbanding-the-police/570993291

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Martin Smith wrote:

That’s terrible of them, throwing garbage in the river like that.

Growing up not too far from Bristol (same as you but in a different direction) I heard the Colston debates that have been going on for decades. There’s the statue, various schools and a hall named after him. It’s 17 years since I left Wales so it’s been in the air for at least 25 years.

It’s about time after all the dithering, especially as if you look at what Bristol has exported to the world in the last 30 years with Trip-Hop and Drum and Bass. Colston Hall is being refurbed and it’s already been pretty much agreed will have its name changed when it opens again next year.

Bristol is far from alone though, while the US has its confederate statues the UK is full of various tributes to slave traders.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

http://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/03/barack-obama-says-protests-across-the-country-arent-like-the-1968-riots-which-some-think-helped-elect-nixon.html

I spent last night with a friend of mine who is a historian and professor. We talked a lot about how 1968 compares to now. His view is thet are not the same scale, and I disagree. We settled on agreeing that 2020 will be no less notable in the history books of the future.

Good news about Minneapolis.

garjones wrote:

Growing up not too far from Bristol (same as you but in a different direction) I heard the Colston debates that have been going on for decades. There’s the statue, various schools and a hall named after him. It’s 17 years since I left Wales so it’s been in the air for at least 25 years.

Didn’t realise the debate was quite that old, but I remember the Colston Hall debate from at least ten years ago. At the time I thought, leave the name be, and use it as a talking point for education. But I’ve just read how Bristol council has spent years unable to agree on suitable “educational” words to put on the statue, so

 

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lorcan_nagle

garjones wrote:

In Bristol today they pulled down a statue of slave trader Edward Colson and threw it in the sea.

Watch the moment a statue of slave trader Edward Colston is pulled down in Bristol city centre during #BLMbristol pic.twitter.com/B5JuwoN4u6

— ITV News West Country (@itvwestcountry) June 7, 2020

Statue of slave trader Edward Colston pulled down and thrown into harbour by Bristol protesters

This stuck out to me:

Avon and Somerset Police superintendent Andy Bennett said 10,000 people had attended the Black Lives Matter demonstration in Bristol and the majority did so “peacefully”.

He said: “The Black Lives Matter demonstration in Bristol was attended by an estimated 10,000 people. The vast majority of those who came to voice their concerns about racial inequality and injustice did so peacefully and respectfully. The ongoing coronavirus pandemic added a different dynamic to what was always going to be a challenging policing operation.

“And I’d like to thank the organisers for their efforts to encourage demonstrators to follow Government guidance – a message which many clearly took on board, doing their best to socially distance despite the large crowds. Keeping the public safe was our greatest priority and thankfully there were no instances of disorder and no arrests were made.”

But he added officers would be seeking to identify protesters who pulled down a statue of slave trader Edward Colston.

“An investigation will be carried out to identify those involved and we’re already collating footage of the incident,” he said.

“You might wonder why we didn’t intervene and why we just allowed people to put it in the docks we made a very tactical decision that to stop people from doing that act may have caused further disorder and we decided that the safest thing to do in terms of our policing tactics was to allow it to take place.

“Our policing style from the outset was low key, we were not able to get to the statue in time to protect it and once it had actually been toppled there was clearly a preplanned attempt to bring that down. They had grappling ropes and they had the right tools.

“So once it was down we made a decision the right thing to was to allow it to happen because what we did not want is tension.”

What a commonsense, level-headed approach.

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lorcan_nagle, Andy

garjones wrote:

Martin Smith wrote:

That’s terrible of them, throwing garbage in the river like that.

Growing up not too far from Bristol (same as you but in a different direction) I heard the Colston debates that have been going on for decades. There’s the statue, various schools and a hall named after him. It’s 17 years since I left Wales so it’s been in the air for at least 25 years.

It’s about time after all the dithering, especially as if you look at what Bristol has exported to the world in the last 30 years with Trip-Hop and Drum and Bass. Colston Hall is being refurbed and it’s already been pretty much agreed will have its name changed when it opens again next year.

Bristol is far from alone though, while the US has its confederate statues the UK is full of various tributes to slave traders.

Weirdly, I’ve never felt that connected to Bristol as I have, say, Birmingham, even though I am relatively close. I think it’s partly because my town is right on the border of different local news regions, so before the analogue switch-off we used to get BBC regional news from Birmingham and ITV local news from Oxford. And now I don’t watch the local news much (but do get BBC news from Bristol).

So I hadn’t heard of Colston until I was in uni. One of my lecturers was from the area and mentioned one day that so much of the city was named after a slave-trader and it sickened him and he was always signing petitions to get things changed. That was over a decade ago and things haven’t happened. So yeah, throw the fucker in the river.

It amuses me all the people saying that it should have been “democratically” and that protestors shouldn’t have taken it into their own hands. As if, as David said, the council haven’t spent years dragging their feet on just adding a second plaque mentioning that he was a slave trader (which kept getting scuppered by the Merchant Venturers). I wonder if these people felt the same way about the Berlin Wall coming down.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

Martin Smith wrote:

It amuses me all the people saying that it should have been “democratically” and that protestors shouldn’t have taken it into their own hands. As if, as David said, the council haven’t spent years dragging their feet on just adding a second plaque mentioning that he was a slave trader (which kept getting scuppered by the Merchant Venturers). I wonder if these people felt the same way about the Berlin Wall coming down.

Yeah, I think it’s that tricky area where idealism meets practicality and the ends might ultimately justify the means, even if part of you feels that the methods are essentially wrong.

There is a lot of nuanced discussion to be had about the current protests, the demonstrations and policing, and I think we’re still too much in the thick of it for those conversations to be had while emotions are running so high all round, which is part of the reason I haven’t got stuck into most of these online discussions so far.

But I think a relatively minor event like this is a good example of how you can have very conflicting feelings about something and ultimately agree with action that you might generally feel is against your principles, because in the end it achieves something that is more important in the overall scheme of things.

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It was more newspapers for me. The nationals used to make regional editions for ‘Wales and the South West’ so you’d get a few extra snippets from that area.

Ideally this would have been an official decision to shift it into a museum with context attached but Bristol councilors definitely farted around over the decision far too long and kind of asked for it. If it hadn’t happened last weekend it would not have surprised me to see someone remove it one night anyway.

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Man Drives Car Toward Protesters In Seattle, Shoots One Demonstrator

A man drove through 11th and hit a barricade. He exited his car and flashed a gun. The police say they have the man in custody and have the gun. They asked for anybody who is hurt to come to the barricade. A man was on the ground on 11th and Pine. He’s up now. pic.twitter.com/47eZZOvG59

— Chase Burns (@chaseburnsy) June 8, 2020

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garjones wrote:

Ideally this would have been an official decision to shift it into a museum with context attached

I agree. I don’t know if anyone has been but there’s an excellent museum of slavery in Liverpool which has lots of exhibits that are all put in historical context and explained. (Not exactly a fun day out but a sobering educational experience that I would definitely recommend.)

It would have been the perfect home for something like this.

Judge sets conditional bail of $1 million for ex-officer charged in George Floyd’s death

Not comfortable with a murderer getting bail (no matter how high), but I do approve of the conditions placed.

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Todd

Christian wrote:

Todd wrote:

So you were order to shove old men to the ground and injure them?

And just walk past an injured, bleeding old man instead of helping him?

Yeah, I am sure those were exactly their orders.

Plus, hey, yeah, “We were just executing orders” is a great excuse. Can’t think of a scenario in which that didn’t sound great.

Yeah, do they address the commissioner as Fuhrer or something?

Anonymous wrote:

It is your point, and it is certainly worth you remembering as you’ve identified it within your community.  Religion can be used as a crux to justify human rights abuses and has for centuries.

Racism IS racism and needs to be denounced at every opportunity.

My point was that I thought that Andy meant that he thought I meant that the racism is theologically based. If I read his post wrong, I’m sorry. If not, it’s politically based. It’s not that they’re racist because rabbis teach them to. It’s because of revision of the history of Jewish-Black relations that has unfortunately become common among some of us.

Well, Kalman.  You have your faith and you want to think of it as a faith perfected.

Historically, religions (all of them) have justified horrible acts under the pretense of their religious texts.

No one has a right to impugn your faith. And neither do they have a right to impugn someone’s  racial identity.  I am glad you are turning your mind to racism that seems to be present in your community.  You should put your mind to how damaging the idea that racism is permissible throughout society can be and less to what the reasons are behind granting that permission (although, this is important to be aware of too).  It is not permissible no matter the reasons, whether political or religious or any other reason.

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Todd

How about replacing it with a statue of the people pulling the statue down? Then the statue is still there and everyone should be happy.

— Richard K Herring (@Herring1967) June 8, 2020

 

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I wasn’t sure if this should go in “weird news” because, well…

Courtyard Dental Practice in Saffron Walden, Essex, has introduced a number of safety measures, including escorting visitors from their cars into the surgery, handing out face masks, and checking people’s temperatures.

I’m not sure they’ve really thought this through

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njerry

DavidM wrote:

I’m not sure they’ve really thought this through

No, it’s okay, because they’ve cut a big hole in the mask right in front of the mouth.

But you HAVE to wear a mask.

Because, y’know….COVID.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52973219

 

How the hell is prince Andrew not in jail? There is a very credible accusation, and he is obviously tied to Epstein.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52973219

 

How the hell is prince Andrew not in jail? There is a very credible accusation, and he is obviously tied to Epstein.

He’s rich and powerful.

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Andy, Dave, Todd

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52973219

 

How the hell is prince Andrew not in jail? There is a very credible accusation, and he is obviously tied to Epstein.

He’s rich and powerful.

I knew you were gonna say that!

 

Seriously it is creepy as hell.

 

Apparently this was also a part of MKultra. One of the psychiatrists in charge had some government officials abuse underage patients and filmed it in order to get more funding for the “research”. And that is from wikipedia, not some nutty conspiracy site.

It’s a useful tool if you’re familiar with a subject but it can be a bit of a tool. Anyone can edit wikipedia. It has a lot of inherent bias. Various intelligence agencies, political parties and companies employ staff to tweak edits to portray their interests in a more flattering light. Sometimes people do it just for the laugh. The editors do correct deliberate misinformation / blatant lies when brought to their attention but it can be a slow process and often by then has been proliferated. The citation of original sources is handy to trace back references and is a good reminder to use multiple sources.

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Anonymous wrote:

I knew you were gonna say that!

I mean, tell me that I’m wrong?

Anonymous wrote:

Seriously it is creepy as hell.

Yeah, it’s just like Jimmy Saville and the other child abusers that the British establishment protected.  Their good standing was more important than the victims.

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Dave

Next you’ll be telling me that Savile had links to the royal family!

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lorcan_nagle

Anonymous wrote:

It’s a useful tool if you’re familiar with a subject but it can be a bit of a tool. Anyone can edit wikipedia. It has a lot of inherent bias. Various intelligence agencies, political parties and companies employ staff to tweak edits to portray their interests in a more flattering light. Sometimes people do it just for the laugh. The editors do correct deliberate misinformation / blatant lies when brought to their attention but it can be a slow process and often by then has been proliferated. The citation of original sources is handy to trace back references and is a good reminder to use multiple sources.

 

I know, wiki can be awful sometimes but for many things it is the best source that is easily accessible. There is a note in the MKUltra article referring to one book for the child abuse allegations, a book by Andrew Goliszek, In the Name of Science: A History of Secret Programs, Medical Rsearch, and Human Experimentation. But given some of the other things that occured within the framework of MKUltra, child sexual abuse is not that far out. 

 

 

lorcan_nagle wrote:

I mean, tell me that I’m wrong?

Well, you did fail to mention he’s white.

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Anonymous wrote:

And that is from wikipedia, not some a nutty conspiracy site.

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JRCarter wrote:

De Blasio Vows for First Time to Cut Funding for the N.Y.P.D.

Looking at the NYPD’s history of brutality and misconduct, it’s needed to be defunded for some time.

I hope he cancels his own security detail.

I didn’t peg you for a “police budgets are sacrosanct” kind of guy, Arjan.

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lorcan_nagle

I am afraid the cuts will not make the police better, who determines what part is cut? If they say cut off funding for military grade hardware, I think that’s fine, but they might as well cut money for the cops training or safety in the poorest neighborhoods. I think that they’ll be more likely to cut services for the poorest than for the richest, like security for people like DeBlasio himself. I’m sure he can still count on a few guys with guns to keep him safe.

 

 

Funding for police actions in poor black and brown neighborhoods will be the hardest to cut. The purpose of police is to contain crime to those neighborhoods and feed residents into the prison industrial complex.

Here’s what defunding the police would look like:

A Practical Guide to Defunding the Police

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

Well I do agree some tasks of the police could better be fulfilled by other services like social work. I am not against specific cuts, but police has to be part of the solution too. People shouldn’t just look at them as the enemy, I think policing is necessary and can be a force for good.

 

Investment in certain fields that could reduce crime, like better social security, housing etc, is always good of course. But you should also look into the training cops get. I think in the Netherlands they have to learn quite a lot longer than in the US to become a police officer , two years vs a few months.

 

 

Ultimately the police form part of the third branch of government, the Executive, and the fundamental structure behind every western Democracy since 1653.    You can’t really get rid of them entirely without fundamentally changing the structure of Government entirely, and you could only achieve that result in an immediate fashion through revolution, anarchy or war.  I’ve read that the police could be replaced with community-organised law enforcement, but you still need to place checks and balances on that organisation to ensure they operate within the rule of law, so you are essentially creating an entirely new institution to replace the job of the old one.

This conversation will be going on for a long time, and it is really semantics at this point whether it is defund, abolish or rebuild, because it’s clear that the way the police operate in America needs to be meaningfully changed, whichever term you use.

EDIT: I think the education thing is probably pretty massive for the states.  Police all need degrees in Australia too (although not all from reputable institutions), and I’d bet most western countries.

A bit of good news:

Harris County DA dismisses nearly 800 cases against peaceful protesters arrested during police brutality marches

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Andy, Martin Smith, lorcan_nagle

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52973219

 

How the hell is prince Andrew not in jail? There is a very credible accusation, and he is obviously tied to Epstein.

He’s rich and powerful.

He’s rich, powerful and also part of a symbol of the establishment. If some tycoon has to be offered up for sacrifice they can live with it. The Queen’s son being tried in a televised case in the US, no chance.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Anonymous wrote:

Well I do agree some tasks of the police could better be fulfilled by other services like social work. I am not against specific cuts, but police has to be part of the solution too. People shouldn’t just look at them as the enemy, I think policing is necessary and can be a force for good.

Literally nobody says there should be no policing.  Even radical anarchists say there should be people empowered to investigate crime and enforce agreed-upon community rules.  And people on here have pointed this out to you before.

It’s worth noting that in the US, the police is literally trained to think of criminals as “the enemy”, and then conditioned to go looking for any reason to declare someone a criminal. John Oliver touched on it in his piece this week but that’s a real tip of the iceberg sort of thing. For example, a couple of weeks ago marked the 35th anniversary of when the Philadelphia police dropped a bomb from a helicopter onto a black liberation movement’s commune, killing 11 people, almost half of them under the age of 13, and destroying 65 innocent family’s houses.  People have very good reasons to look at the police as the enemy.

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[Christian]

Anonymous wrote:

Ultimately the police form part of the third branch of government, the Executive, and the fundamental structure behind every western Democracy since 1653.    You can’t really get rid of them entirely without fundamentally changing the structure of Government entirely, and you could only achieve that result in an immediate fashion through revolution, anarchy or war.  I’ve read that the police could be replaced with community-organised law enforcement, but you still need to place checks and balances on that organisation to ensure they operate within the rule of law, so you are essentially creating an entirely new institution to replace the job of the old one.

This conversation will be going on for a long time, and it is really semantics at this point whether it is defund, abolish or rebuild, because it’s clear that the way the police operate in America needs to be meaningfully changed, whichever term you use.

It’s been mentioned before, but I think the semantics of this are bad and give the other side an opening without need. “Abolishing” sounds like you want to get rid of the police entirely, and “defunding” sounds like all you want to do is have a police that isn’t properly funded, as if that would solve all the problem. So the conversation becomes about that, and about endlessly explaining to rednecks shouting at you “WELL GOOD LUCK WHEN SOMEONE’S COMING TO YOUR HOUSE TO KILL YOU” that that isn’t what you’re saying.

Talking about police reform or rebuilding the police would skip all that nonsense, but I suppose it is too late for that.

Honestly, I don’t even know if police is that overfunded everywhere in the US (tried to do a quick search comparing it to numbers in the UK, but didn’t get anything substantial that’d cover the mean average country-wide). A police does need to be well-funded and well-trained if you want to have a police that is good in de-escalation and communication, too, you just have to allocate the funds in a different way.

I feel like an approach that would make that clear would have a chance of getting some of the police force to support it, too, whereas the talk about defunding and abolishing puts them into a corner and hardly leaves any other option for cops than to fight against any and all change. Which is problematic; if you don’t create a new image for the police, one that focuses on service for the community, on communication and support, then the only people interested in police work will still be the ones looking to exert power over others as primary motivation. If you keep focusing on the image of the police as the enemy, you don’t get a better police, you will probably get an even worse one, even if it’s defunded and thus hopefully not as militarised as far as hardware is concerned.

The discussion needs to focus on what the police’s job should be, and what you want policemen to be like, and on whether they have too much of a budget or not.

EDIT: Shit, should’ve posted this in the politics thread, now we’ve got the same discussion in two threads at once… ah well.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by Christian.

I think the truth is that ‘Defund The Police’ is a slightly reductive slogan that sounds more radical than it actually is. Because what people seem to be arguing for is something that no-one could really disagree with: better allocation of police resources to more effectively address social problems.

Which I think most people realise is needed, even if the problems attached to this are incredibly complex and deep-seated and tie into all sorts of systemic issues that go beyond the police and into other social structures. (And if you don’t, go and watch The Wire for a primer.)

So it’s a simple call to action with a very complex solution that is going to require a lot of detailed discussion and reform that will take years to accomplish.

I think slogans like this can be useful and are needed to create a movement, but I do think that this one is initially a little misleading – because at first it sounds like a call to abolish the police altogether – even if there’s ultimately quite a sensible intention at the heart of it.