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The Dutch high council of law recently made euthanasia in cases of dementia legal by refusing to prosecute a doctor who euthanized a patient for this reason. At the patient’s request obviously.

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DavidM wrote:

Ok, my first solution is to use common sense. According to this report, Denmark opened its schools before opening anything else. This means you’ve got parents free to address how to get back to work. Denmark has common sense. Be more like Denmark.

Honestly we have no idea whether this is common sense. It is just as much a common-sense argument that of all the groups to potentially carry and spread the infection, primary school children are one of the biggest risks. There are a lot of factors to weigh in all of these decisions; common sense isn’t quite so easy here.

Also, what the Swedes have done, if you watch the report, is to make really sure that the kids keep to the distance rules and that the groups are really small. So I’d assume that “reopening the schools” means something similar to what it means here right now, which is like one or two days of school in a week for the average pupil. So it’s not like parents can just jump right back into work.

DavidM wrote:

But even before we got as far as that, I’d have done something like this:

Uh-uh. No retrospective “This is what we should have done three months ago”, please. Three months ago, you would have said to ignore this because it’s no worse than the flu.

What are the best solutions right now?

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Ben, Dave

Christian wrote:

Uh-uh. No retrospective “This is what we should have done three months ago”, please. Three months ago, you would have said to ignore this because it’s no worse than the flu. What are the best solutions right now?

I’d like to broadcast this sentiment to the media at large.

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Ben

Anonymous wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

William Gibson wrote Disneyland with the Death Penalty about Singapore in 1993, for Bob’s sake.  This is nothing new.

Wait? No naked show at home? What if I want to naked show at home to maaaai waaaaaiiiffffe?

Close your curtains

Christian wrote:

Also, what the Swedes have done, if you watch the report, is to make really sure that the kids keep to the distance rules and that the groups are really small.

This aspect is really important. People tend to look at these things only as black and white rules in place. Lockdown or no lockdown.

In fact every country is applying restrictions and how they are being actually followed varies. Pictures show that in some places compliance has been really poor.

There’s an element of guesswork in restrictions as the results are lagging, the numbers we see reported are roughly giving us a picture of the transmission rate two weeks ago.  I think in the end it’s inevitable we’ll see more clearly that some moves were overly cautious and some rather rash.

It guess it’s natural for us to tend to see this all from our own personal point of view of what we judge to be a reasonable reaction, rather than actually trying to determine an objective standard.

At the moment I feel like the international comparisons (and comparisons of any kind really, even with our own friends and neighbours) are a bit like driving on the motorway – everyone going slower than me is being overly cautious and everyone going faster is a maniac.

Christian wrote:

What are the best solutions right now?

Ok. Then be honest with people:

“This will not go away. Stop saying ‘when this is all over we will…’ because this will never be all over. There may never be a  vaccine (see: common cold). Even if there is a vaccine, maybe in a year’s time, this will still never go away (see: influenza). We will be dying of this for the rest of eternity.”

Then ask people:

“So do you want to live like this forever, until human civilization crumbles and we return to the middle ages, or do you want to carry on with life as it was 6 months ago, until enough people die that civilization crumbles we return to the middle ages?”

Or, put more simply:

“Do you want to burn out or fade away?”

Then at least people can make an informed decision about how they want to die.

Now this seems like common sense. At least he’s honest about the fact that we’re going to live with this forever.

Dr David Nabarro, the World Health Organization’s special envoy for Covid-19, told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme that the UK needs to be “very careful” in opening up from lockdown as it still has “a lot of virus around”.
“As soon as movement does restart all over the country there could well be many, many outbreaks,” he said.
He said the nation faces a “massive task” to recruit and train the thousands of contact tracers who will be needed to implement an effective test, trace and isolate strategy.
“That’s been shown in other countries to be the key to living with this virus as a constant threat, and getting on with life,” he said. “It’s not second waves, it’s a constant threat.”
Capacity to test, trace and isolate needs to be in place before lockdowns are lifted, he said. “Lockdown is freezing the virus in place and giving us time to get ready so when we release the lockdown we are better prepared.”

DavidM wrote:

Christian wrote:

What are the best solutions right now?

Ok. Then be honest with people:

“This will not go away. Stop saying ‘when this is all over we will…’ because this will never be all over. There may never be a  vaccine (see: common cold). Even if there is a vaccine, maybe in a year’s time, this will still never go away (see: influenza). We will be dying of this for the rest of eternity.”

Then ask people:

“So do you want to live like this forever, until human civilization crumbles and we return to the middle ages, or do you want to carry on with life as it was 6 months ago, until enough people die that civilization crumbles we return to the middle ages?”

Or, put more simply:

“Do you want to burn out or fade away?”

Then at least people can make an informed decision about how they want to die.

Or maybe there’s another path somewhere between those two options, one still that mitigates the risk to a large extent while allowing some easing of the restrictions gradually, and in line with the latest scientific opinion on what is proportionate and workable.

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Christian, Ben

Opportunity knocks!

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DavidM wrote:

Christian wrote:

What are the best solutions right now?

Ok. Then be honest with people:

“This will not go away. Stop saying ‘when this is all over we will…’ because this will never be all over. There may never be a  vaccine (see: common cold). Even if there is a vaccine, maybe in a year’s time, this will still never go away (see: influenza). We will be dying of this for the rest of eternity.”

Then ask people:

“So do you want to live like this forever, until human civilization crumbles and we return to the middle ages, or do you want to carry on with life as it was 6 months ago, until enough people die that civilization crumbles we return to the middle ages?”

Or, put more simply:

“Do you want to burn out or fade away?”

Then at least people can make an informed decision about how they want to die.

Taking medical advice from the Kurgan is unlikely to end well.

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Christian

Ben wrote:

Taking medical advice from the Kurgan is unlikely to end well.

Do you want the prize or not?

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Christian, Ben

Stay Alert >> Control the Virus >> Don’t Lose Your Head

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Ben

Ben wrote:

There may never be a  vaccine (see: common cold). Even if there is a vaccine, maybe in a year’s time, this will still never go away (see: influenza).

This isn’t definite though. It’s a possibility but there are several other viruses that did go away. Spanish flu, MERS and SARS as examples. They didn’t even bother pursuing a vaccine for the latter two because by that time it was no longer a threat. Spanish flu is almost certainly where Trump gets his ‘one day it will magically disappear’ lines from because effectively that did, it very quickly just stopped, almost certainly through herd immunity.

It could mutate like seasonal flu, it could mutate radically like the common cold, or it could not. If it does we get your scenario. If.

The other option is like HIV we may not be able to cure it but develop treatments that are good enough that nobody needs to die from it.

I think it’s frustrating for many that there are dozens of unanswered questions about this, we don’t know 100% what to do because we don’t know the exact way it most commonly gets transmitted. Maybe masks are a saviour, maybe they do next to nothing.

Maybe opening up will lead to a second round, maybe it will ebb away and return next winter whatever we do. Nobody knows.

Viral load is an issue, we’ve seen that those under 60 and with no underlying conditions that are dying are doctors, nurses, care home workers, drivers of buses and taxis, owners of busy small shops. Lorry drivers aren’t, train drivers aren’t but bus and taxi drivers are  so there’s a fairly clear sign that frequent exposure to many people can make the effects worse. So if we all just say ‘to hell with and take the risk’ then the risk may not be what is now but what it is for those workers, being exposed to it several times a day.

Or maybe not. Frustrating when people want easy answers.

 

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Dave

Just for the record: That ain’t my line.

Anonymous wrote:

Ben wrote:

Taking medical advice from the Kurgan is unlikely to end well.

Do you want the prize or not?

In that scenario, the prize is you dying so Kurgan can get the prize!

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Christian

That was amazing.

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Todd

It really was.

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Todd

DavidM wrote:

Ok. Then be honest with people:

There are actually a lot of people being honest about that if you look at what virologists or responsible politicians are saying. But people don’t like to hear that what is going on right now will stay with us for at least a year. Or at least, they don’t want to think about it too much.

DavidM wrote:

“This will not go away. Stop saying ‘when this is all over we will…’ because this will never be all over. There may never be a  vaccine (see: common cold). Even if there is a vaccine, maybe in a year’s time, this will still never go away (see: influenza). We will be dying of this for the rest of eternity.”

And when we’ve got a vaccine and effective treatments, that’ll be okay. We people die of a lot of things, and maybe this will keep being one of them. Right now, we are fighting for the those in our society who are at a risk of dying in multitudes, very quickly, in overcrowded ICU rooms. We’re fighting for our parents and grandparents to be around a while longer (amongst others who are at risk). But that is what will change; in a year’s – or maybe in two years’ – time, the situation will in all probability be at a point where we don’t have to suspend our lives to protect these people.

But right now we do.

This is what we are doing. And it’s a good thing to fight for that. Let’s remember that: we are doing this to save the people we love. And many of these people suffered a terrible war for many years, and rebuilt the world for us. So maybe it’s okay if we fight for them by staying at home and keeping away from other people for a year, or maybe even for two? Maybe that is something we can live with?

So that’s your answer. I would rather do that that burn out, honestly, if that’s okay.

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Ben, garjones, Dave, lorcan_nagle

This is why we need a “Dumbass Thread”:

New Jersey gym reopens in defiance of coronavirus measures

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Ben, Todd

Speaking about dumbasses:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/gdp-could-decline-by-42percent-in-the-second-quarter-according-to-the-atlanta-fed.html

 

Just a 42 % drop of the GDP.

 

You know what’s getting me down?

These absolute takes on Covid-19.

There’s one side that wants to pretend it doesn’t exist and it’s all some crazy authoritarian conspiracy to stop people having a massage to help the final aims of the lurking Communist threat.

There’s another very prevalent that any concept other than leaving the house is bringing an oncoming genocide. If you play football behind closed doors you’ll kill 2000 pensioners.

I despair how few people can just look at facts and realise risks have to be weighed up. I’ll go to a restaurant this week because cases here now are very low, if they were high I’d change my assessment. Shouldn’t that be the normal response?

 

 

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Ben, Todd, Dave, lorcan_nagle

garjones wrote:

the final aims of the lurking Communist threat.

You know, I wish the lurking Communist threat was a great as we’re made out to be.  And I really wish George Soros actually paid protesters because I could do with the cash

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DavidM, Christian, Todd

Honestly, at this point wishing for communism is the same as saying “maybe if the nazis took over, they wouldn’t be so bad this time.” It’s despicable. This place feels gross these days.

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lorcan_nagle

Anonymous wrote:

Honestly, at this point wishing for communism is the same as saying “maybe if the nazis took over, they wouldn’t be so bad this time.” It’s despicable. This place feels gross these days.

you could just say you don’t know anything about Communism, it’d be easier.

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Anonymous wrote:

at this point wishing for communism

He’s joking Arjan. See the ‘like’ on your post.

The whole world is HOT TAKES!

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Todd, Dave, lorcan_nagle

My hope is that, given that it can be compared to the Spanish Flu insofar it will have a second wave, that, scientists, knowing that, will have time before that to develop treatments that will mean the second wave’s restrictions can be less than restrictions  now

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I also hope that local politicians, knowing that this exists, would have their health boards attuned to possible warning signs of resurgence, and will put light measures in place, that could make a resurgence less threatening.

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Honestly they still have no idea if there will be a second wave, or if this could last months or years, or forever. I think the economic collapse and societal suffering because of the lockdown will be so immense that they will never try anything like this again, even if we’re all dying from airborne ebola. Just wait until the food industry falters and governments go bankrupt. It’s going to be biblical. I certainly don’t believe the virus is a hoax, but I think there are plenty of people who see this as an opportunity. Order from chaos and all that. But yeah that’s a conspiracy theory.

 

Anonymous wrote:

I think the economic collapse and societal suffering because of the lockdown will be so immense that they will never try anything like this again, even if we’re all dying from airborne ebola.

Economics is a very man-made science. Governments can print money. Nobody needs to be short of food or shelter in this world, that’s just fact. It happens because that’s the system we created. Bezos is on his way to being the world’s first trillionaire while a few of his staff are dying.

If 8 weeks of reduced economic activity drives the world to its knees then maybe we need to rethink how it works.

There are several super-volcanoes around the world, one day one of them will erupt. Any of them would disrupt 100 times more than this pandemic.  What then?

 

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DavidM, Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle

People have inflated expectations of government and science and there is no middle ground between the two poles.  Either government is incompetent or has databases going back half a century – and that’s not a joke, had someone ask for something from the early 60s recently; either science is perfect or it knows fuck all.

When you are a toddler you are a scientist, you get tired of crawling, so you try and stand up, you fall, it hurts.  You try again, a bit more carefully, still fall. You keep the experiment going, eventually you don’t fall, you’re no longer crawling, can you move on these two legs? You try it, fall over.  Try again, you get half a step, maybe a step, fall over.  You keep going and you acquire a sense of balance, you can toddle around, terrifying your parents in the process.

Covid-19 is new, therefore we know nothing of it, we are crawling and stumbling towards knowing more of it as fast as possible and that really has happened, but the 100% risk-free life people were sold by snake oil politicians? It was always bollocks.

The biggest challenge? Covid-19 is both more contagious and more adept at hiding itself, its symptoms are similar to other viruses, also active at the same time.  Over time, detection will probably improve, drugs will become available to combat it, but right now? We ain’t got much.

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DavidM, Dave, Todd, lorcan_nagle

garjones wrote:

a few of his staff are dying.

Don’t worry, anyone with COVID in an at-will employment state will get their marching papers before they kick the bucket so the headlines don’t say Amazon workers died.

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Dave, Todd, Ben, garjones

garjones wrote:

If 8 weeks of reduced economic activity drives the world to its knees then maybe we need to rethink how it works.

I’ve heard that line, but that’s assuming there are easy answers. That brings us back to order out of chaos. I’m sure eventually people could be persuaded to follow someone who promises paradise if they just do as they’re told.

[garjones]

There are no easy answers to anything. That’s the whole problem, everyone is searching for them but they aren’t there.

However we need to think logically, I have spent all my life since education, bar 4 months unemployed, working for corporations or my creating my own business. I am a landlord and an employer right now. My kids go to private school, I’d like them not to but the state schools think it acceptable to have 50+ students to a class.

I find it weird being lectured to on right wing concepts by someone who has spent the majority of his adult life on government benefits in maybe the most liberal country in the world.

If people are ill I want those benefits in place. Not for me right now, for society.

If we went libertarian where does that leave you?  A free spirit on the street? The idea of someone without a job asking for tips on the best holiday destination in Italy basically only exists in a few small northern European countries, definitely not the UK or US.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by garjones.

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Dave, Christian, Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle

garjones wrote:

If 8 weeks of reduced economic activity drives the world to its knees then maybe we need to rethink how it works. There are several super-volcanoes around the world, one day one of them will erupt. Any of them would disrupt 100 times more than this pandemic.  What then?

This is a worthwhile point to make but it’s hardly the first recession we’ve had, it’s only the first one caused by a pandemic.  We get one about every 30 or 30 years of varying degrees and we always say “We’ll do better next time”.  It’s like the person with the hangover who swears not to drink.

The solution isn’t as simple though.  When you’re hangover you can (but never do) just choose to drink less in the future.  What are our options in this instance – market less?  I would certainly be in favour of a huge reduction on complex financial instruments but that’s a pipe dream.

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DavidM

I think I am generally left wing. Just being against government orders to stay home doesn’t suddenly make you right wing. The weird thing is when in 2009 we got a government composed of the most right wing parties in the Netherlands I was afraid my money situation would get worse, but it got better. So that left-right divide isn’t always as clear cut. Still I think governments have a duty to provide for people, nobody should be hungry or homeless if it can be helped. Although people also have a duty to provide for themselves if it is at all possible, or to do something in return for society. That’s the system we have. People on welfare have to be available for work or activities the municipality finds for them, or do something else like volunteer work, if possible.

 

If I come over as lecturing, I am sorry. That isn’t my intention. I just have my ideas, what other people think is their own matter. But yeah the idea of communist regimes is scary, given how they work out in real life. Basic freedoms should not be a right wing concept. I have talked to plenty of people who lived under communism in Czechoslovakia, including writers who were prosecuted. I had talks with one writer who was originally sentenced to death and then had his sentence commuted to 13 years in jail. It’s better there now.

 

With the ferment in society, it is frightening what might happen. I am not sure any changes covid 19 will bring will work out well, or lead us to a more just and egalitarian society, wether it is nominally left wing or right wing. You’re right, I am happy to live in the Netherlands which is a pretty good place all things considered, I am more worried about the US and the UK. Although if the US goes to shit everybody will suffer.

 

Meanwhile in France: kids in playboxes. This shit makes me mad. This shit has to be over soon, god fucking dammit.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, Governor Cuomo just said something that I think will get him a lot of criticism: he said places of worship will be allowed to open last, which, given his reasoning, I can see as reasonable (I do disagree, but my points are irrelevant right now), but he said something that implied that he sees houses of worship to be equal to concerts in importance. I doubt that’s what he meant, I think he meant in risk according to his position, but I think a lot of religious people in this state would be too angry that he used such a comparison to see the truth.

Anonymous wrote:

Meanwhile in France: kids in playboxes. This shit makes me mad.

On the bright side of things, it means you have nothing that matters to get angry about.

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Todd

They reopened places of worship relatively early here, but to be fair at least where Christian churches are concerned, they tend to be pretty empty anyway. Obeying distance rules isn’t exactly difficult.

These days I’m worshipping from home.

Former WWE Superstar Shad Gaspard is missing after visiting newly reopened Venice Beach

garjones wrote:

I despair how few people can just look at facts and realise risks have to be weighed up. I’ll go to a restaurant this week because cases here now are very low, if they were high I’d change my assessment. Shouldn’t that be the normal response?

But making your own assessment, while fine for you, is unworkable when you have to interact with other people who are making different assessments. We don’t live in bubbles (even now).

Risk is subjective for everyone. If I look at infection figures and think “Well, 1 in 1000 aren’t bad odds,” should I be allowed to go to a restaurant here in the UK? If a restaurant owner thinks that the odds are good enough that it’s worth trying save his business, should he be allowed to open for other people who think the same? Well, no, they’d all be arrested, because their actions are going to affect other people who don’t think the same way.

Dave wrote:

These days I’m worshipping from home.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

edit: eh, fuck it. Never mind.

DavidM wrote:

But making your own assessment, while fine for you, is unworkable when you have to interact with other people who are making different assessments. We don’t live in bubbles (even now).

Risk is subjective for everyone. If I look at infection figures and think “Well, 1 in 1000 aren’t bad odds,” should I be allowed to go to a restaurant here in the UK? If a restaurant owner thinks that the odds are good enough that it’s worth trying save his business, should he be allowed to open for other people who think the same? Well, no, they’d all be arrested, because their actions are going to affect other people who don’t think the same way.

Gar’s point wasn’t just about individual choices though, it was that these kind of risk assessments are going on on the government level, as well. Right now, in Germany, we’re opening up restaurants again and maybe that’ll go well. Or maybe it’ll drive up R once again and then we’ll have to close them down again. There are no easy solutions for all of this.

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Ben, Dave, lorcan_nagle

Christian wrote:

Or maybe it’ll drive up R once again

I think there’s no room for “maybe” in that statement. Yes, of course it will. The virus hasn’t changed, it’s still as inherently infectious as it was last week or last month. The only reason R has gone down is that carriers and potential victims are more separated. As soon as that separation lessens, R will go up. No “maybe”, it just will.

DavidM wrote:

The virus hasn’t changed, it’s still as inherently infectious as it was last week or last month

Herd immunity and general mindfulness about distancing has changed the playing field for that particular player though.

I thought it was still unknown whether you were immune after getting it once, which herd immunity requires. Maybe I’m out of date on the science though, it seems to change randomly (and with which government you listen to).

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Sean Robinson

DavidM wrote:

I thought it was still unknown whether you were immune after getting it once, which herd immunity requires.

I forgot about that, but seeing as my home nation is relying entirely on the premise of herd immunity for the time past, being and coming I will not concede my point but rest assuredly believing that herd immunity is a factor.

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DavidM

It seems Governor Cuomo has reversed his position. Houses of worship can open with a limited number of congregants wearing masks, and being socially distant,  even in totally unopened areas. The amount of congregants may increase in latter stages.

DavidM wrote:

I think there’s no room for “maybe” in that statement. Yes, of course it will. The virus hasn’t changed, it’s still as inherently infectious as it was last week or last month. The only reason R has gone down is that carriers and potential victims are more separated. As soon as that separation lessens, R will go up. No “maybe”, it just will.

Quite true. I should’ve expressed more clearly that the question is to what extent it’ll be driven up. As long as it stays under 1, we’ll apparently be fine. And it seems that is quite possible provided everybody keeps being mindful of distancing and whatnot. Hammer and dance, man. Hammer and dance.

DavidM wrote:

I thought it was still unknown whether you were immune after getting it once, which herd immunity requires. Maybe I’m out of date on the science though, it seems to change randomly (and with which government you listen to).

I’m still listening to Christian Drosten (I mentioned the podcast they do with him before; he’s one of the world’s leading expert on corona viruses, and it’s quite cool that he’s directly talking to people on a podcast). He’s pretty sure that immunity is a given.

Herd immunity, on the other hand, is not an option at all for most countries. Sweden may be a different case because it’s more sparsely populated, but in Germany, that approach has been rejected because going for herd immunity under conditions that won’t overwhelm our health system would take at least two years; so we’re hoping for a vaccine instead of trying to deliberately drive up reproduction a little to achieve herd immunity faster and risk overwhelming the health system.

But immunity has pretty much been demonstrated. Herd immunity is a possibility; and it’s possible that Sweden has the right approach at least for their country.

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DavidM

Christian wrote:

Hammer and dance, man. Hammer and dance.

 

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Christian

Herd immunity: test, trace, isolate and inoculate. The other option is to cull the infected and incinerate.

[SteveUK]

DavidM wrote:

I’m out of date on the science though, it seems to change randomly (and with which government you listen to

But as you know, Governments and science are not always working together, and this pandemic is definitely an example of that.

I don’t go to the government exclusively for information on this or any other topic.

Christian wrote:

But immunity has pretty much been demonstrated. Herd immunity is a possibility; and it’s possible that Sweden has the right approach at least for their country.

Herd immunity requires a lot of infections. I’ve read the statements from the Swedes and they scare the crap out of me. Even in Sweden it’s controversial, with a lot of opposition.

But it’s a political decision again, which scientific opinion to listen to.

EDIT:
Related news:

Nearly half of the Twitter accounts spreading messages on the social media platform about the coronavirus pandemic are likely bots, researchers at Carnegie Mellon University said on Wednesday.

Researchers culled through more than 200 million tweets since January discussing the virus and found that about 45% were sent by accounts that behave more like computerized robots than humans.

It is too early to say conclusively what individuals or groups are behind the bot accounts, but researchers said the tweets appeared aimed at sowing divisions in America.

“We do know that it looks like it’s a propaganda machine, and it definitely matches the Russian and Chinese playbooks, but it would take a tremendous amount of resources to substantiate that,” said Kathleen Carley, a professor of computer science at Carnegie Mellon University, who is conducting a study into bot-generated coronavirus activity on Twitter that has yet to be published.

Researchers identified more than 100 false narratives about COVID-19 that are proliferating on Twitter by accounts controlled by bots.

–SNIP–

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/20/859814085/researchers-nearly-half-of-accounts-tweeting-about-coronavirus-are-likely-bots?

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by SteveUK.

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lorcan_nagle

Fucking William Gibson reality that we’re living in. Maybe if we travel back in time and kill him with a shovel?

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lorcan_nagle

Christian wrote:

Fucking William Gibson reality that we’re living in. Maybe if we travel back in time and kill him with a shovel?

See, the problem is that if he’s right about the future, then he’s probably right about time travel as well, and as per The Peripheral, the best we’ll do is create an alternate timeline we can interact with in real time instead of changing our present.

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Christian, Todd

lorcan_nagle wrote:

See, the problem is that if he’s right about the future, then he’s probably right about time travel as well, and as per The Peripheral, the best we’ll do is create an alternate timeline we can interact with in real time instead of changing our present.

But we could go there and kill him for our own amusement, right?

Then again, if we’re going to kill people for amusement I think Gibson is pretty far down the list.

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Anonymous wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

See, the problem is that if he’s right about the future, then he’s probably right about time travel as well, and as per The Peripheral, the best we’ll do is create an alternate timeline we can interact with in real time instead of changing our present.

But we could go there and kill him for our own amusement, right?

Then again, if we’re going to kill people for amusement I think Gibson is pretty far down the list.

We’d have to get someone there to kill him for us.

But in Archangel, they were able to send people back in time, it’s just not made clear if the future the Pilot returned to replaced his timeline, or if it was the future of the quantum past he travelled to.

lorcan_nagle wrote:

But in Archangel, they were able to send people back in time, it’s just not made clear if the future the Pilot returned to replaced his timeline, or if it was the future of the quantum past he travelled to.

Who’d give a shit? I’m not a part of Planetary, I just want the guy dead and if I return to a future where he’s dead I’m just fine. Am I missing something?

(Note: I don’t actually want to kill (these) people)

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Christian, lorcan_nagle

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/21/health/sweden-herd-immunity-coronavirus-intl/index.html

 

Well… What’s the word again?

Oh! Fuck!

That’s the one!

Fuck!

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lorcan_nagle

But look on the bright side: if only 7.3% of people have developed antibodies despite their best efforts to pass the virus around, that means it’s not actually that contagious.

BBC:

Egypt to deduct 1% from workers’ salaries
The Egyptian government has announced a raft of financial measures to help pay for the economic damage caused by the pandemic.
Under a new draft law, every working Egyptian will have 1% deduced from their pay while the elderly will have a half percent cut from their pensions.

Uh… you mean income tax is going up by 1%?

What doublespeak is this? Are we so obsessed with tax cuts that you not even allowed to mention income tax being raised when you’re reporting on other countries?

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Dave

Anonymous wrote:

Well… What’s the word again?

Oh! Fuck!

That’s the one!

Fuck!

Well, from the quote in the article, this is still all going according to Tegnell’s plan? I don’t know how that is though, I have to admit, since he’s quoted in other places as saying that he’s confident Stockholm will have reached 40% immunity by the end of May.

https://www.ft.com/content/a2b4c18c-a5e8-4edc-8047-ade4a82a548d

Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist who devised the no-lockdown approach, estimated that 40 per cent of people in the capital, Stockholm, would be immune to Covid-19 by the end of May, giving the country an advantage against a virus that “we’re going to have to live with for a very long time”.

“In the autumn there will be a second wave. Sweden will have a high level of immunity and the number of cases will probably be quite low,” Mr Tegnell told the Financial Times. “But Finland will have a very low level of immunity. Will Finland have to go into a complete lockdown again?”

Sweden and Mr Tegnell are under the global spotlight as their response to the pandemic has made them a global outlier.

Primary and secondary schools, restaurants, cafés and shops are mostly open as normal in Sweden, with health authorities relying on voluntary social distancing and people opting to work from home. Schools for over-16s and universities are closed and gatherings of more than 50 people are banned, but it is still the most relaxed approach of any EU country.

At another point of this article, Anders, Tegnell is quoted in saying that Sweden won’t achieve actual herd immunity, nor will anyone else. He’s also skeptical about when there’ll be a vaccine, saying that might be a lot longer than a year or two and that we may have to live with the current state of affairs for much longer. Which is presumably the reason for his strategy.

DavidM wrote:

But look on the bright side: if only 7.3% of people have developed antibodies despite their best efforts to pass the virus around, that means it’s not actually that contagious.

That doesn’t hold quite true. Like the quote from the article above shows, there are measures against the virus, it just mostly relies on voluntary behaviour instead of any kind of lockdown or hard rules being enforced.

Also, we do know pretty exactly how infectious the virus is; we know that without any measures at all, R is about 2-3.3, which is why the whole exponential growth thing and all that. The interesting thing is that in Sweden, R supposedly around or a little under 1, which is pretty much what it is anywhere else.

That number is apparently under dispute; but if it is correct, it may indeed turn out that the counter-measures we have been adopting are over the top and not necessary to this extent. And if that is the case, we will keep winding them down, and maybe have Swedish rules sometimes soon.

I’ve had a thought for what we should do next year, assuming the Covid-19 crisis has passed by then.

Now that we’ve established that people are willing to endure economic hardship, take pay cuts, give up going out anywhere, destroy businesses, etc., for the sake of keeping people safe and healthy, then I propose we do it again.

Let’s tackle cancer next.

Let’s throw billions of pounds at cancer research for the first half of 2021, or until we beat it, whichever comes first.

There are plenty of ways we can raise the money: cut pay to 80% across the board (increasing income tax by 20% should approximate that), close schools and divert the money they would normally cost us, stop all unnecessary nno-cancer treatments at hospitals, have huge government borrowing with the debt passed onto our grandchildren. We know that society is fine with all of these measures if they are in a good cause. All this should raise literally hundreds of billions of pounds, all of which should be sunk into curing cancer.

In 2022 we can move on to… I dunno, heart disease?

Christian wrote:

Well, from the quote in the article, this is still all going according to Tegnell’s plan? I don’t know how that is though, I have to admit, since he’s quoted in other places as saying that he’s confident Stockholm will have reached 40% immunity by the end of May.

Fuck doesn’t quite cut it on this one. I’m going going to need that word… ohhh!! What is it? I hate that word…. what… NO! That’s the one. No. Now, I combine them in response to Tegnells comment and presto:

Fuck no.

With 7-8 percent immunity one week away from the end of May (and that’s Stockholm immunity only) a 40 percent immunity within said week sounds to me like we’re in for the biggest overload for a functioning health care system ever. Someone call Guinness! No, not the book of records, I need a couple of kegs of actual Guinness to get through this one.

At least we’re not under Alliansen (~the alliance) rule. When Reinfeldt was PM he was actually nominated for the Nobel Prize of Medicine for his discovery that you can’t actually be sick for longer than a year (in relation to some policy announcement). I’m really glad we have a government that’s incompetent in a totally different way.

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Christian

DavidM wrote:

In 2022 we can move on to… I dunno, heart disease?

Ligma.

I guess the US doesn’t have the monopoly on COVID Denial:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/22/860947708/1-in-5-in-england-think-the-coronavirus-is-a-hoax?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=nprblogscoronavirusliveupdates

My favorite part is the belief that the virus is spread via 5G, which has led to people burning cell towers.

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Todd

njerry wrote:

My favorite part is the belief that the virus is spread via 5G,

My favourite comment was from Philomena Cunk on the recent Antiviral Wipe who talked about how the conspiracy theorists accused the media of covering this up by choosing not to report it, just because it wasn’t true.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

njerry wrote:

I guess the US doesn’t have the monopoly on COVID Denial:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/22/860947708/1-in-5-in-england-think-the-coronavirus-is-a-hoax?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=nprblogscoronavirusliveupdates

My favorite part is the belief that the virus is spread via 5G, which has led to people burning cell towers.

And then they complained about their phones no longer working – clearly another part of the conspiracy.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle, Dave

Man who filmed shooting of Ahmaud Arbery charged with murder

Good. Ahmaud Arbery might still be alive if not for this asshole.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

So it seems Dominic Cummings travelled from London to Durham to visit his elderly parents while he and his wife were both suffering from coronavirus symptoms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52779356

I’m sure he’ll quickly do the right thing and resign and we won’t get a load of Tory spin and obfuscation in an attempt to lead everyone away from the story, right?

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Martin Smith, Hank Cannon, Ben, lorcan_nagle

njerry wrote:

My favorite part is the belief that the virus is spread via 5G, which has led to people burning cell towers.

Some of our resident conspiracy “enthusiasts” set a couple of masts on fire in Donegal thinking they were 5G ones.  It cut a hospital off from the regular phone network for a few hours.

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njerry, Todd, Hank Cannon

The nursing homes here are starting to open a little bit. I can’t see my friends there yet, people in the homes can see just one contact person and that is likely to be one of their family, rather than the volunteer workers. But it is great for them of course and it gives me hope that I can go for a beer with my pals in the future.

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DavidM

[Christian]

DavidM wrote:

Now that we’ve established that people are willing to endure economic hardship, take pay cuts, give up going out anywhere, destroy businesses, etc., for the sake of keeping people safe and healthy, then I propose we do it again.

Absolutely. But not cancer. Climate change.

I’ve been saying for many years now that rebuilding our energy sector should be our moon project. Our top, and really our only, priority. It should be the thing we gladly endure economic hardship for, take pay cuts for, destroy businesses for. It is the only thing that really matters in the world.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by Christian.

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DavidM

[Christian]

Christian wrote:

DavidM wrote:

Now that we’ve established that people are willing to endure economic hardship, take pay cuts, give up going out anywhere, destroy businesses, etc., for the sake of keeping people safe and healthy, then I propose we do it again.

Absolutely. But not cancer. Climate change.

I’ve been saying for many years now that rebuilding our energy sector should be our moon project. Our top, and really our only, priority. It should be the thing we gladly endure economic hardship for, take pay cuts for, destroy businesses for. It is the only thing that really matters in the world.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by Christian.

What’s interesting is a report got published showing that while we all stayed at home it did have a noticeable impact on carbon emissions, it wasn’t enough to stem the tide – it’s literal proof that the only way to deal with environmental damage is to work top down and seriously look at consumption and distribution of resources on a global scale.

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DavidM, Todd, Christian

Yeah. As long as our system is based on growth of consumption, and production and consumption automatically mean CO2 production… well. At least one of those things has to change.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

 it may indeed turn out that the counter-measures we have been adopting are over the top and not necessary to this extent. And if that is the case, we will keep winding them down, and maybe have Swedish rules sometimes soon.

Been away for a while so sorry if I’m repeating earlier discussion points, but Sweden is certainly a fascinating case study. There’s so much going on there that it’s going to be hard to determine not just how well their strategy has or hasn’t worked, but if it’s a strategy that’s feasible for other countries. Sweden’s demographics might be more friendly to this kind of approach than a lot of other countries. It’s my understanding that they have a more spread-out population than lots of other places with more single person dwellings which would help mitigate the spread. Plus they have a better healthcare system than many places and a population more trusting of the state. I’m fairly certain if lots of places in the US had tried the approach, the spread would have been more rapid (due to population density) and the system would have been overwhelmed quickly.

Either way, there will be lots of studies surrounding all of this while people try to figure out what went well and what went wrong. I know a lot of analysts are paying close attention to Georgia over here as they were the first state to start reopening and were highly criticized for how they reopened. There was an expectation of a huge surge over there because of it, but so far it hasn’t seemed to happen. That could change, but either way I don’t think there’s one over-arching strategy that will work for every country.

 

Anonymous wrote:

DavidM wrote:

In 2022 we can move on to… I dunno, heart disease?

Ligma.

Diabetes

Chris D wrote:

 it may indeed turn out that the counter-measures we have been adopting are over the top and not necessary to this extent. And if that is the case, we will keep winding them down, and maybe have Swedish rules sometimes soon.

Been away for a while so sorry if I’m repeating earlier discussion points, but Sweden is certainly a fascinating case study. There’s so much going on there that it’s going to be hard to determine not just how well their strategy has or hasn’t worked, but if it’s a strategy that’s feasible for other countries. Sweden’s demographics might be more friendly to this kind of approach than a lot of other countries. It’s my understanding that they have a more spread-out population than lots of other places with more single person dwellings which would help mitigate the spread. Plus they have a better healthcare system than many places and a population more trusting of the state. I’m fairly certain if lots of places in the US had tried the approach, the spread would have been more rapid (due to population density) and the system would have been overwhelmed quickly.

Either way, there will be lots of studies surrounding all of this while people try to figure out what went well and what went wrong. I know a lot of analysts are paying close attention to Georgia over here as they were the first state to start reopening and were highly criticized for how they reopened. There was an expectation of a huge surge over there because of it, but so far it hasn’t seemed to happen. That could change, but either way I don’t think there’s one over-arching strategy that will work for every country.

 

Compared to most other european countries, our day to day social life is reminiscent of social distancing (apart from excessive hugging). And, and this is more quantifiable, we have an extensive work-from-home work culture since before this started, I think we rank highest in the world when it comes to that.

We also have the highest covid-19 deaths per capita. Sweden number one!

Chris D wrote:

Been away for a while so sorry if I’m repeating earlier discussion points, but Sweden is certainly a fascinating case study. There’s so much going on there that it’s going to be hard to determine not just how well their strategy has or hasn’t worked, but if it’s a strategy that’s feasible for other countries. Sweden’s demographics might be more friendly to this kind of approach than a lot of other countries. It’s my understanding that they have a more spread-out population than lots of other places with more single person dwellings which would help mitigate the spread. Plus they have a better healthcare system than many places and a population more trusting of the state. I’m fairly certain if lots of places in the US had tried the approach, the spread would have been more rapid (due to population density) and the system would have been overwhelmed quickly.

Hey Chris! Yeah, that summarises it nicely.

Anonymous wrote:

Compared to most other european countries, our day to day social life is reminiscent of social distancing (apart from excessive hugging). And, and this is more quantifiable, we have an extensive work-from-home work culture since before this started, I think we rank highest in the world when it comes to that.

The most interesting thing really is that you’re leaving the schools (for under-sixteen-year-olds) and kindergartens open. If it’s possible to do that without R exploding, that’d be good to know. It’s hard to imagine keeping the current state of things where those are concerned for another full year and more.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/23/europes-covid-predicament-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-the-anti-vaxxers

Every time I see shit like this, I grow more comfortable with the idea of mass re-education camps. Not that I was super-uncomfortable with them to begin with (provided there are humane conditions, no organ theft, etc)…

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

Good news!

Evidence indicates you stop transmitting Covid-19 11 days after being infected. 

This is what was expected, it’s how the immune system works in regard to 99% of viruses, apparently.

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Ben, Todd

Police in 3 States Launch Manhunt for 23-Year-Old Who Allegedly Murdered 2 Men

***WILLINGTON HOMICDE UPDATE***
Most current photos of the suspect, Peter Manfredonia. Last seen in East Stroudsburg, PA. PA law enforcement agencies are actively looking for the suspect. Do NOT approach, he is ARMED AND DANGEROUS, call 911 immediately. pic.twitter.com/cOnvHh9EiQ

— CT State Police (@CT_STATE_POLICE) May 24, 2020

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Todd

Christ, this one even looks like Ben Shapiro.

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Todd

The hate-child of Richard Spencer and Ben Shapiro.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

[DavidM]

The headline we were hoping to wake up to this morning:

Four months’ prison for quarantine-breaker

A 27-year-old man in South Korea

Doh!

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by DavidM.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by DavidM.

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lorcan_nagle, njerry

Meanwhile, this is great news. Because opening a house of worship to bring in some tourist dollars is exactly What Jesus Would Do:

The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem has reopened as the West Bank eases its lockdown.

But only 50 visitors will be allowed in at a time, and they’ll have to wear facemasks and ensure that they do not have a temperature.

The church in Bethlehem, the birthplace of Christ, is a major tourist draw for the Palestinian economy in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

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Todd

DavidM wrote:

Meanwhile, this is great news. Because opening a house of worship to bring in some tourist dollars is exactly What Jesus Would Do:

Go on, add it to the pile of shit that the church does in Jesus name that he would 100% throw a shit-fit over.

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Todd

DavidM wrote:

Meanwhile, this is great news. Because opening a house of worship to bring in some tourist dollars is exactly What Jesus Would Do:

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Good news!

Evidence indicates you stop transmitting Covid-19 11 days after being infected. 

This is what was expected, it’s how the immune system works in regard to 99% of viruses, apparently.

Does infected mean symptomatic, or if you were exposed, but were asymptomatic, are you also clear?

It seems from the article that all people that have tested positive (and still test positive after) does not infect others after 11 days.

That would include anyone who is carrying the virus.

It doesn’t say it in clear text but on the other hand it doesn’t make any sort of distinction about symptoms either way.

It was a very short article. It took me longer to write this than it took me to read it.

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DavidM, Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Does infected mean symptomatic, or if you were exposed, but were asymptomatic, are you also clear?

Doesn’t make a difference. The viral load is the same in symptomatic and asyomptomatic people, and the same goes for the antibodies.

So, yeah, you’re expected to be immune if you’ve had it without symptoms.

I’ve just watched the arrest live on camera of CNN journalists in Minneapolis.

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Hank Cannon, Todd

It is insane over there, even more than usual.

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Hank Cannon

It certainly is more than usual.

The death of George Floyd in police custody is not the first such death in recent years — you can look back to 2014 to one of the first cases, that of Eric Garner, whose pleas just before he died spawned the phrase “I can’t breathe” which was eerily and disturbingly repeated in the latest tragedy. But while that case and all the ones in between have triggered local protests where the deaths of (predominantly) African American men occurred at the hands of law enforcement officers, the blatant on-camera killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis by one cop as three of his colleagues looked on has sparked not just local riots, but protests throughout the nation and complaints and censure across the globe.

A ray of hope — under the orders of the mayor of Minneapolis, all four police officers were fired (not suspended, not put on desk duty), and now the Attorney General of Minnesota is looking into potential murder charges. I’m not fooling myself into thinking that the cop who kept his knee pressed onto Mr. Floyd’s neck as he slowly died will actually be convicted (I’m certain that his PBA will hire the best defense attorney that money can buy), but the possibility of a police officer being charged with such a serious crime will hopefully make other like-minded cops think twice about abusing the powers they’ve been given.

Or maybe I’m a hopeless optimist. All I do know is that something needs to change, and hopefully this event is the catalyst we need.

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Christian, Todd, Ben, DavidM, Sean Robinson, lorcan_nagle, Dave

So far it’s third-degree murder and manslaughter. I don’t know how anyone can hear those words and do nothing.

Trump’s response is to quote words used to incite violence in the 60s.

I admire your optimism, Jerry. This has to end.

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Ben

Anonymous wrote:

Trump’s response is to quote words used to incite violence in the 60s.

What did that bastard say now?

Well, probably so many awful examples JR but the one Twitter red flagged was him using the line “when the looting starts, the shooting starts”, as it was glorifying violence.

I don’t have access to the papers from that period now. Did a quick search. There are other resources online too:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/5/29/21274754/racist-history-trump-when-the-looting-starts-the-shooting-starts

Ben wrote:

Well, probably so many awful examples JR but the one Twitter red flagged was him using the line “when the looting starts, the shooting starts”, as it was glorifying violence.

It’s also quoting an openly racist police chief who opposed the civil rights movement in the 60s.

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Ben, Todd

Read the tweet. He also refers to the protestors as thugs and since thug is considered code for a certain word that begins with N and rhymes with “trigger”…

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Ben, Todd, Christian, lorcan_nagle