The Sports Thread

Topic

[Todd]

Feel free to discuss sports of all types from all over the world here. This thread is not limited by country or region.

And remember, Jeopardy! is a game show, not a sport.

• This topic was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Todd.

Replies

Wow…

https://www.newsweek.com/gwen-berry-turns-away-flag-during-national-anthem-1604483

Great game by the Czechs. The Dutch just didn’t have the sparkle.

Sue Bird, a star woman basketball player in the States, is also the partner of Megan Rapinoe, a star woman soccer player.

Sue Bird said something as blunt as it is right when it comes to the marketing of a woman’s sport. Here is the link:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/wnba/2020/10/19/wnbas-sue-bird-perception-cute-white-girls-helps-uswnt/3708578001/

I thought about it and historically, cute white girls in the US, whether it is in skating (Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill) gymnastics (Mary Lou Retton), tennis (Chrissy Evert) and so on are the marketing order of the day.

It is what it is.

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JRCarter

Anonymous wrote:

Anyone catch the justification for that red card?

I don’t know, it mystified me. Has to be the softest red I’ve ever seen, he seemed to pull out of the tackle and barely made contact.

Anyway that was too late to make a difference, fair play to Denmark their coach was clever enough to see where they were going wrong in the first 10 minutes and change it and ours wasn’t able to adjust back.

He’s a caretaker coach with very little experience because Ryan Giggs, who is meant to be the manager, is suspended on domestic violence charges he’s defending. I think Giggs from the media reports is probably guilty so he’s gone and they need to move on and get an experienced guy in.

Giggs is not well loved by Welsh fans as he always seemed to consider playing for Man United as his priority whereas Bale is the opposite, taking the piss that he’d rather play for Wales than Real Madrid who have been paying him an absolute fortune for years.

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Martin Smith

Anonymous wrote:

Great game by the Czechs. The Dutch just didn’t have the sparkle.

I completely forgot they were playing today. I put a quid on the Czechs at 150/1 before the tournament to win the whole thing and it’s looking good so far. Also put a little on Denmark and Belgium, so given Denmark are playing Czechia in one quarter final, I’m guaranteed someone through to the semis (where I may cash out if the offer is good enough).

Al-x wrote:

I thought about it and historically, cute white girls in the US ….are the marketing order of the day.

That was true in the past, but currently the two female athletes with the most endorsement earnings are Naomi Osaka ($34M last year) and Serena Williams ($32M). No “cute white girl” gets close to that $$ number, so it appears the old attitudes are crumbling…

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garjones, Al-x

njerry wrote:

Al-x wrote:

I thought about it and historically, cute white girls in the US ….are the marketing order of the day.

That was true in the past, but currently the two female athletes with the most endorsement earnings are Naomi Osaka ($34M last year) and Serena Williams ($32M). No “cute white girl” gets close to that $$ number, so it appears the old attitudes are crumbling…

And Simone Biles is the top female gymnast who even has a move named after her.

Al-x wrote:

I thought about it and historically, cute white girls in the US, whether it is in skating (Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill) gymnastics (Mary Lou Retton), tennis (Chrissy Evert) and so on are the marketing order of the day.

After losing cable I have started watching Chiney and Golic jr. on ESPN +. I lived for approx 20 years watching a Golic do his radio show so it is easy to continue but Chiney is good too. Chiney’s sister, Nneka, who has won WNBA championships, MVPs, and was President of WNBAPA, has never been selected to Team USA Olympics squad.

https://twitter.com/chiney/status/1406980225456435212?s=20

https://www.si.com/basketball/2021/06/22/derek-fisher-calls-bs-nneka-ogwumike-omission-team-usa-olympics
the dagger in this article echoes Al’s sentiment.

Diana Taurasi (fractured sternum) is also recovering from injury but was chosen for her fifth straight Olympics.

 

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Al-x

The Euros are quite something tonight. A cracking pair of last-16 games. France are like a different team in their second half against Switzerland.

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PENALTIES

Fuckin’ penalties.

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Rocket

Wow, what an upset. The French are out.

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Rocket

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garjones, Todd

Primarily for @njerry @todd and @rocket: You can find out where a person is coming from in talking to them on sports. People practically give themselves away. Allow me to explain:

Years ago when Martina was dominating women’s tennis (she went on a 98-2 stretch out of 100 games), you can sense a person was biased by his/her talking about Chrissy Evert and not really wanting to acknowledge Martina. Similarly with today’s game, if the person is somewhat unwilling to acknowledge Serena or Osaka and instead doesn’t mention them or downplays them… then you know. With women’s gymnastics, if they do the same with Simone Biles then….

@Al-x, if you’re suggesting that some people are racist or sexist or homophobic, then….it must be Monday. Or Tuesday. Or one of the other five days. The best revenge against those people is the success that Osaka and the Williams sisters and Tiger Woods and LeBron James and Simone Biles achieve.

People forget that, in 1936, Jesse Owens was universally loved for putting the lie to the Third Reich’s belief in Aryan superiority. Sadly the idea of White Supremacy didn’t die in that bunker with Hitler.

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Todd, garjones, DavidM

No and I believe Owens on picking up an award when he got home was asked to enter via the service elevator because of his colour.

Sadly I think these things move in baby steps as generations change. However the majority now are very happy to celebrate these athletes and that kind of treatment is very much in the history books.

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njerry

It’s blue and yellow vs yellow and blue out on the pitch tonight. Thoughts Goals and prayers corners.

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Rocket

Those two matches yesterday were absolutely insane. Some of the best football I’ve ever watched. France can be brilliant so it’s too bad that they’re out but Switzerland deserved it.

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Rocket, Dave

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Rocket, Ben, garjones

Interesting that the Group Of Death are now all dead.

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Rocket, garjones

An accurate description then really.

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Dave

The final minutes of Sweden-Ukraine are starting to feel like a warzone.

[Rocket]

Mbappe was like a NFL kicker. You make the kick and you are everyone’s hero. Miss it and its time to get out of town.

the 3 group of death teams all had pyrrhic victories.

Ukraine’s goal was the second latest goal in the history of the Euros.

Nothing’s coming home yet. Don’t underestimate Ukraine

Spain, after sleepwalking through its 1st 2 games, have now scored 5 goals in back-to-back games

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Rocket.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Rocket. Reason: misread the bracket

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garjones, Dave

although, this is a positive article

https://www.espn.com/soccer/uefa-european-championship/story/4423558/england-knock-germany-out-of-euro-2020and-in-the-process-begin-to-heal-their-inferiority-complex

 

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njerry

This world never ceases to make my smh…

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/02/swimming-caps-for-natural-black-hair-ruled-out-of-olympic-games-alice-dearing

On a side note, many US black people aren’t great swimmers as a legacy of segregation. Or… when did they ever have beachfront property or access to swimming pools during segregation? There were horrible incidents of bleaching pools, draining it, etc…
What can you do?

When stories are presented like this without fully explaining the rationale for the decision, I always feel like I have to look beyond what I’m being told to figure out what is really going on.

FINA’s decision only relates to the use of these caps in competition. It isn’t trying to discourage their use in general, or more widely discourage black people from swimming. The concern would seem to be that the shape of the headwear could confer some kind of hydrodynamic benefit and competitive advantage.

I think it’s a little bit disingenuous of that report to present it as some kind of mindlessly racially-insensitive decision. But unfortunately the Guardian is increasingly going that way, looking for the divisive angle on stuff like this rather than presenting all the facts.

Anyway, FINA have now put out a statement saying the following:

FINA acknowledges the comments and reactions concerning the use of “Soul Cap” swim caps in FINA competition.

FINA is committed to ensuring that all aquatics athletes have access to appropriate swimwear for competition where this swimwear does not confer a competitive advantage. FINA is currently reviewing the situation with regards to “Soul Cap” and similar products, understanding the importance of inclusivity and representation.

There is no restriction on “Soul Cap” swim caps for recreational and teaching purposes. FINA appreciates the efforts of “Soul Cap” and other suppliers to ensure everyone has the chance to enjoy the water. FINA will also speak with the manufacturer of the “Soul Cap” about utilising their products through the FINA Development Centres.

FINA expects to make its consideration of “Soul Cap” and similar products part of wider initiatives aimed at ensuring there are no barriers to participation in swimming, which is both a sport and a vital life skill.

Disingenuous?

@davewallace..

Uh-uh

In the press media, they were talking about the “natural shape of the head”. Well, what does that mean?

Here is a passage from the Guardian link:

Danielle Obe, the founding member of the Black Swimming Association, told the Guardian the ruling underlined the inherent systemic and institutional inequalities around the sport. “We believe that it confirms a lack of diversity in (the sport),” she said. “Aquatic swimming must do better.”

The original swimming cap, designed by Speedo 50, was created to prevent Caucasian hair from flowing into the face when swimming. Obe said the caps did not work for afro hair, which “grows up and defies gravity”.

She said: “We need the space and the volume which products like the Soul Caps allow for. Inclusivity is realising that no one head shape is ‘normal’.”

Also there are other links and backlash arguments.

On a side note: There are now new gymnastics rules because of Simone Biles record performances.

It really is nothing new in sports. There was a ruling against Serena wearing a catsuit in the French Open years ago because it didn’t fit the traditional style of women’s tennis. Serena was wearing the catsuit for her blood circulation.

Always something…

Al-x wrote:

This world never ceases to make my smh…

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/02/swimming-caps-for-natural-black-hair-ruled-out-of-olympic-games-alice-dearing

On a side note, many US black people aren’t great swimmers as a legacy of segregation. Or… when did they ever have beachfront property or access to swimming pools during segregation? There were horrible incidents of bleaching pools, draining it, etc…
What can you do?

The interesting element with high performance sport is there are really elephants in  the room that don’t 100% suit the ideal we all have of perfect equality.

These people are contesting at hundredths of seconds at times so what means nothing to us is massive to them, like cyclists shaving their legs so they don’t get one nanosecond extra drag. British swimmer Duncan Goodhew suffered from alopecia so he didn’t even have eyebrows.

There are different levels of fat, based on reaction to climate which mean black athletes have an advantage at sprint events but conversely white ones do at swimming. At a cultural community level it is all sociology as you say but when we hit the elite it does raise questions  why all the 100m sprint racers are one ethnicity and in the 100m swimming the other. It’s possible that can’t change.

It’s notable when you look at 100m springing. Jamaica is a country of 3m people, tiny. Yet despite hugely different upbringings the Olympic winners before Bolt, Linford Christie for GBR and Donovan Bailey for Canada were also born in Jamaica. It’s hard in those circumstances to only look at social norms. It does say when all but one of the last 7 champs were born in the same tiny place they have a genetic advantage.

Al-x wrote:

In the press media, they were talking about the “natural shape of the head”. Well, what does that mean?

It means as opposed to a shaped cap that could provide a perceived competitive advantage.

Al-x wrote:

Here is a passage from the Guardian link: Danielle Obe, the founding member of the Black Swimming Association, told the Guardian the ruling underlined the inherent systemic and institutional inequalities around the sport. “We believe that it confirms a lack of diversity in (the sport),” she said. “Aquatic swimming must do better.” The original swimming cap, designed by Speedo 50, was created to prevent Caucasian hair from flowing into the face when swimming. Obe said the caps did not work for afro hair, which “grows up and defies gravity”. She said: “We need the space and the volume which products like the Soul Caps allow for. Inclusivity is realising that no one head shape is ‘normal’.”

The hair of black people may do many things, but it doesn’t defy gravity.

Black swimmers can and have competed in approved headgear. The argument here is clearly over the specific shape of this specific brand of headwear.

If I was cynical I might suggest that they’re actively looking for publicity for the brand and are also seeking to exploit controversy around the decision to get it changed.

The first part seems to be working so far.

Al-x wrote:

In the press media, they were talking about the “natural shape of the head”. Well, what does that mean?

On this question specifically, the reason this particular form of words is used is because it’s a direct quote from the FINA regulations on caps allowed in competition, which I looked up.

Something the article could have explained if it had wanted to.

Well, the jury is still out and there are arguments on both sides.

Is it a conspiracy? Who knows, but it is interesting on who is being targeted.

Also, with regards to the sprinting, I will say this: In the Winter Olympic sports events, the winners are from the Scandinavian countries. Is there a genetic advantage, like a skiing or a bobsledding gene? Is anyone investigating?

I don’t usually get into race debates, but a lot has happened socially in the past few years that make one wonder.

I think it depends Al. There will be a mix of social and genetic elements.

The Brits are shit at Winter Olympics as there is one ski resort in the country which operates for a very short time of the year. Fast reaction sports like table tennis and badminton and squash  are dominated by east Asian athletes.

While I can’t discount social elements evidence does suggest that the lineups of the final at the Olympics at certain events won’t change, no matter what we do.

25% of all professional rugby players are from the Pacific Islands. It’s an insane stat as it’s a big game in England and France who combined have over 120 million at hand and Fiji, Tonga and Samoa have less than 2m combined

 

 

garjones wrote:

I think it depends Al. There will be a mix of social and genetic elements.

That I agree with.

As for this swimming cap thing, I really want it to be logical and fair. I really do.

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garjones

Al-x wrote:

As for this swimming cap thing, I really want it to be logical and fair. I really do.

Me too and I hope the motivation behind this is a lack of time to properly assess the equipment. It’s not that long ago they banned those all over bodysuits that were found to be assisting times too much.

I follow a guy called Ross Tucker who works for a group called The Science of Sport in South Africa and he’s been recording in recent times how long standing records have been tumbling in long distance running because of new shoe technology from Nike. They’ve gone though years of testing what advantage the shoes bring over the prowess of the athletes and the findings were a lot of it is the shoe. These things do change though, when Jesse Owens was breaking records in the 1930s he was running on gravel without spiked athletic shoes. There’s an argument that as long as everyone has access to the shoes it’s a level playing field but when it comes to historical records it’s also true that if Owens were running on today’s tracks, in today’s shoes, he’d be several tenths of a second faster.

If the shape of the swim cap infers some tactical advantage you could see swimmers without afro hair start to wear it as well.

There probably is some ignorance at play here though even if it isn’t prejudice, the board is likely all white and not really focused enough on the needs of others to have got that assessment done before the Olympics.

garjones wrote:

the board is likely all white

Here are the details of FINA’s swimwear approval committee and its five members.

They are not all white.

From what has been made public about the decision, all indications are that they have properly assessed the cap and found that it does not meet the requirements of FINA’s rules that I posted above, ie. that the cap is not designed to follow the shape of the wearer’s head.

Without more details I can’t say why that is – but presumably the materials used and design of the cap give it a structure that creates some kind of shape that is different to that of a wearer’s head.

Obviously swimcaps are mostly quite tight and compress hair down to the head. From the pictures I’ve seen, this one looks looser in places and not as compressive, so that could be it.

I don’t feel particularly strongly about this individual issue, but I do feel as though it’s indicative of a growing approach to these kinds of stories which is to amplify the racism angle without providing all of the facts needed to understand the issue.

I’ve had to go away and find all this stuff out by myself to feel like I understand the arguments and the processes here, whereas the news stories have presented it as a straightforward “racist decision” narrative.

And that’s not to mention all of the commercial aspects that we all know will be at play here too (in terms of sponsorship/endorsement opportunities linked with brands like this at a high-profile sporting event), which I presume will be a consideration for the swimmers who were planning to wear it this year.

Ultimately, it may be that the controversy over the argument puts pressure on FINA to change their decision.

And it may be that the argument has highlighted a broader weakness in the underlying rules themselves, rather than the headgear assessment process – that the “natural shape of the head” wording does somewhat discriminate against certain hair types and so could do with being reviewed.

Either way, I doubt we’ve heard the end of this. But you can bet that the next story you read about it still won’t actually explain the issues involved in the decision in full.

Dave wrote:

They are not all white.

More diverse than I assumed (yeah ass out of u and me) but none of that group would have personally considered afro hair.

Just to clarify I wasn’t accusing them of racism but that by a lack of inclusion things can be overlooked and their importance reduced. If the motorcycle had just been invented and I were asked on an advisory board on the rules I would probably never think about how helmet rules would affect a Sikh for example. Similarly I doubt whoever drafted those original rules would have considered that angle.

The news agenda definitely rushes to outrage but I think it’s fair from what you have found that they seem to have just stuck to the past ruling rather than properly adjudged if it adds any competitive advantage. If I dare assume again you’d think logically if it is bigger and looser it most probably doesn’t, by what I understand of the science behind reducing drag in the water.

 

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Yeah I would assume the same – that the baggy shape is a drag and so has a negative impact.

However, the rules that they are holding the caps to (which is what I posted above – it’s not a ruling, just the standard FINA requirements for evaluating swimwear) state that caps must conform to the shape of the head, which it looks like this one doesn’t.

So it seems like they made the correct decision according to their rules, but that maybe there is an argument for the rules themselves to be revised/relaxed to allow caps that don’t conform to the shape of the head as long as they clearly offer no competitive advantage.

Obviously that’s a more complicated decision though, so any such rule change and subsequent fresh decision will likely take a while, probably not in time for the Olympics.

So I think there’s an argument here that more flexibility in the rules could be desirable to account for variation in headwear for different hair types provided it confers no advantage. But that’s far from the “racist decision” headlines and angle being presented in the news.

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garjones wrote:

none of that group would have personally considered afro hair.

On this point specifically, I think it’s a dangerous route to go down to assume that if they are not black then there’s likely a degree of racial insensitivity there. You can see from the criteria I posted above that these are all professionals with specific expertise who represent regions covering the entire world in their field. It’s not a bunch of white blokes down the pub who don’t know what black people’s hair looks like.

I’d also like to make the wider point that this is why I think forums are so much better than twitter. We can have this discussion at length, with the necessary nuance, without any accusations of racism being thrown around.

Dave wrote:

I’d also like to make the wider point that this is why I think forums are so much better than twitter. We can have this discussion at length, with the necessary nuance, without any accusations of racism being thrown around.

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Dave

Dave wrote:

On this point specifically, I think it’s a dangerous route to go down to assume that if they are not black then there’s likely a degree of racial insensitivity there.

That can be true but I don’t think that’s where I’m coming from. If you don’t see the personal need then it is easy to be overlooked. That’s not necessarily racial insensitivity.

Think for example of decades of designing buildings with toilets which mean women often have to queue and men almost never. I doubt all those men were inherently sexist or insensitive, they just never thought about it because it would never affect them.

 

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Dave

Yeah, that argument is fair. I just don’t think we should automatically read that into this case. They are experts in their field and represent a broad spread of geographies and races, and they’ve been asked to make a specific decision according to fairly narrowly-defined criteria.

The decision itself hasn’t been published (as far as I could tell) so it’s hard to be 100% sure, but I think that’s all that’s happened here.

And their subsequent statement makes it seem like they’re very aware of the issues we’ve been talking about, and makes it clear that they want to work with the manufacturers of these caps to promote their use of outside of situations where strict competition rules apply.

Also, Al: this has been a thought-provoking discussion.

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Al-x, Todd

Dave wrote:

They are experts in their field

Not necessarily. In the region I agree but sports administrators are frequently more experienced in administration than the sport. Clare Balding, an ex jockey, is the president of Rugby League in the UK.

Google Maha Zaoui and every story seems to be about her background in women’s rugby in Africa.

garjones wrote:

If the shape of the swim cap infers some tactical advantage you could see swimmers without afro hair start to wear it as well.

Cultural appropriation!!!

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Todd

garjones wrote:

Dave wrote:

They are experts in their field

Not necessarily. In the region I agree but sports administrators are frequently more experienced in administration than the sport. Clare Balding, an ex jockey, is the president of Rugby League in the UK.

Google Maha Zaoui and every story seems to be about her background in women’s rugby in Africa.

From the criteria I posted earlier:

The FINA SAC shall consist of 5 persons representing the five continents appointed by the Bureau. The members shall have knowledge about the sport equipment, of sport in general and the aquatics sport in particular. At least one of them shall also have knowledge in material science specifically in fabrics and/or polymers. At least one of the members of the committee shall have legal training and experience.

They sound like people who will know what they’re talking about. Unless we have good reason to think otherwise.

But regardless, if we accept that the decision they’re being asked to make is whether the caps conform to the FINA rules for competition wear as set out above, it’s pretty hard to argue that they’ve made the wrong call. The caps do not appear to be tight and do not conform to the shape of the wearer’s head.

So the argument then becomes more about the rules and whether some kind of revision would be welcome, rather than whether these poor sods are qualified for their job or whether the decision was somehow racist.

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Yeah, I didn’t read your entire post because it’s so fucking long, but here you disprove your above virtue signaling about racism not being thrown around in one single (half a) sentence right at the end.

Dave wrote:

the decision was somehow racist

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Dave

That’s how the Guardian will report on this thread.

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njerry

Shave those sideburns Mattingly!

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Todd, Dave

@SEAN_ROBINSON, how are you doing this morning? I take it you won’t be traveling to Florida any time soon.

In all seriousness, I was hoping the Canadiens would take the Cup to end Canada’s drought.

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Sean Robinson

Well, once Tampa went up 3-0 in the series it’d be a miracle, but was hoping for Montreal to push it to game 6 for Friday night.

No such luck. Very obvious Tampa is an elite team.
C’est la vie.*

Who saw Tampa Bay as a Championship sports town?
2 Stanley Cups in two years, a Superbowl (the only one to be won on home field, to boot) and both could continue winning.

*I actually don’t know French, so may have just ordered food. Hope you guys like Poutine on your Pizza.

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Todd

Sean Robinson wrote:

Poutine on your Pizza

of course I would use Garlic oil instead tomato sauce.

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Todd, Sean Robinson

I would have thought we would have some footie supporters here celebrating. but may be they are following the wisdom of an old MW stalwart

https://twitter.com/Carlos_Adama/status/1412899761586413573?s=20

 

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Todd

Something tells me the English character would love a valiant defeat to mourn even more than an unbelievable win to celebrate.

I’m just not sure we could deal with incontrovertible proof that the English team is actually pretty good.

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DavidM, Todd, Sean Robinson, Rocket

[Sean Robinson]

Whoa! What’s this about a Green Laser on the Denmark Goaltender?

Half caught a blurb on the news. What could come of this? Just fines?

Edit: Sorry, kind of sunk in what some may be fearing. That there may be some bullshit referee revenge at the worst possible time on Sunday.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Sean Robinson.

Italy wins the European soccer championship in 3-2 penalty shootout

Massively disappointing for England, obviously. But hand on heart, Italy were the better side on balance and it would have been even more unfair for them to lose tonight.

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[Ian Smith]

😏

 

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Ian Smith.

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Rocket, Todd

I don’t understand why they didn’t use Foden more. That is an attractive, creative player. Don’t people want to see spectacle?

 

This wasn’t a very attractive game, but overall there were a lot of great games. I did enjoy this tournament a lot.

Anonymous wrote:

This wasn’t a very attractive game, but overall there were a lot of great games. I did enjoy this tournament a lot.

It’s been one of my favourite tournaments ever, and not just because England got so far. I think the major highlights for me outside of the England games were Wales-Turkey and that amazing night where you had France-Switzerland right after Spain-Croatia. Fantastic entertainment.

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Rocket, garjones

[Al-x]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/vannessajackson/prince-william-meghan-markle-racism-england-players?d_id=2381130&ref=bffbbuzzfeed&utm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bffbbuzzfeed&fbclid=IwAR2wFo_YWThzClCpm8tFtE3C8clza1c_Jv9Vz8B0-rh6KuMlgzj7dnWg9W8

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/facebook-employees-are-reportedly-begging-the-company-to-do-more-about-racist-comments-attacking-english-soccer-players-after-the-team-lost-the-euro-cup-final/ar-AAM3Noa?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Al-x.

And on the above posting, here is a tweet from our beloved former MWer Russell H:

Stop insulting people based upon things that are out of their control. Height, or lack thereof. Penis size. Hairline. Lack of traditional attractiveness. Wearing glasses. Mental health. Weight, to some degree.

These are all things you can only mock about yourself.

— Russell Hillman: Available to write/edit comics (@allhellismrsun) July 12, 2021

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t understand why they didn’t use Foden more. That is an attractive, creative player. Don’t people want to see spectacle?

Speaking of people not used, I sat in a Liverpool supporters’ bar where we were discussing the lack of a penalty shot from one Jordan Henderson.

“WHERE’S HENDO?” we were drunk and biased. I feel sorry for the 3 black players. English hooliganism is alive and well. How long will it take for England to get another shot at a major final? my pick will be a LOOOONG time.

in a crossover story F1 driver gets mugged at final and loses $40,000 watch

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/13/motorsport/lando-norris-wembley-watch-scli-spt-intl-gbr/index.html

AS much as I loved seeing Makar play in the playoffs 2 years ago right out of college, now the Avs have to protect him because he is not a 1st or 2nd year player which are exempt. That meant they could not protect Ryan Graves, who was traded today for a kid and a pick( ). @sean_reynolds are you looking forward to the draft(SEA) or worried about losing players(VAN)?

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Sean Robinson

Assuming you meant me

I’m not worried about losing anyone in the draft, although I haven’t seen a projected list. They can take a crappy contract or three, no problem.

But yeah, it sucks to have to trade away good talent because you’d lose it for nothing.

Shittiest part of all if this is Vegas and Seattle came in separately. Should’ve both been done 4 years ago. This is way too good of a deal for the expansion teams to go solo (and no competitive picking).

Sean Robinson wrote:

Assuming you meant me

Sorry about that. Friday is a bit of a weird day for me. Colorado is not doing well with the draft. They traded their big defenseman Graves to avoid losing him and are risking Landeskog because he will be a free agent on 7/28 and they think they can bring him back then. I am not happy because they are 2 of their bigger players and Vegas pushed them around in playoffs so Avs need all the big players they can get.

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Sean Robinson

in other news

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-british-grand-prix-huge-verstappen-crash-after-contact-with-championship-rival-hamilton.1705633023907399833.html

Not a Fan of Hamilton and I believe this taints his whole season.  I guess “rubbing is racing” does happen in F1 as well as NASCAR.

Naomi Osaka becomes first female Black athlete on a Sports Illustrated Swimsuit cover

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/tennis/2021/07/19/naomi-osaka-cover-sports-illustrated-swimsuit-issue/8011368002/

Nashville Predators prospect Luke Prokop says he is gay, hopes living ‘authentic life’ helps NHL career

Nashville Predators prospect Luke Prokop on Monday became the first active player under NHL contract to come out as gay.

Prokop, 19, made the announcement in an Instagram post.

“It has been quite the journey to get to this point in my life, but I could not be happier with my decision to come out,” Prokop wrote. “From a young age I have dreamed of being an NHL player, and I believe that living my authentic life will allow me to bring my whole self to the rink and improve my chances of fulfilling my dreams.”

No NHL player, active or retired, has come out publicly.

Prokop, a 6-foot-4 right-handed defenseman from Edmonton, Alberta, was selected in the third round by the Predators in the 2020 NHL draft. He signed a three-year entry-level contract with the Predators in December and played last season for the Calgary Hitmen of the Western Hockey League, where he was an alternate captain.

He told ESPN that he struggled last season and wanted to come out publicly because he believed it would help ease his mind and allow him to play his best hockey.

Prokop said he made his decision to come out in April when he returned from Calgary after his season ended because of COVID-19.

“I was lying in bed one night, had just deleted a dating app for the fourth or fifth time, and I was extremely frustrated because I couldn’t be my true authentic self,” Prokop told ESPN. “In that moment I said, ‘Enough is enough. I’m accepting who I am. I want to live the way I want to, and I want to accept myself as a gay man.'”

Prokop began coming out to some family members and teammates this past year and told Predators management he was gay in June. He said the Predators have been extremely supportive of him, including the first person he talked to from the team: assistant general manager Brian Poile.

“He in that moment showed me a lot of support and told me the Predators are behind me 1,000% and want what’s best for me and that they’re proud of me during this,” Prokop told ESPN. “I remember getting off that phone call and tears just started coming from my eyes, I was so excited. And in that moment, I thought, this is what it’s going to feel like for the rest of my life. For them to show that support that they did in that moment, it felt like I can rule the world.”

The Predators released statements of support for Prokop on Monday, and Nashville captain Roman Josi told NHL.com that the team is “obviously very proud of him for taking that step.”

“The Nashville Predators organization is proud of Luke for the courage he is displaying in coming out today and we will support him unequivocally in the days, weeks, and years to come as he continues to develop as a prospect,” Predators president and CEO Sean Henry said. “A long-stated goal in our organization is equality for all, including the LGBTQ community, and it is important that Luke feels comfortable and part of an inclusive environment as he moves forward in his career.”

Said Josi: “Our message as a team [is that] we’re obviously very supportive of him. We just reached out and told him [we’ll help with] whatever he needs and that we’re proud of him. It’s a big step for him, and we fully support him.”

Prokop said his decision to come out was made independently of Carl Nassib’s announcement in June, though Prokop found Nassib’s words, and the reaction to his announcement, inspiring. Nassib, a defensive end for the Las Vegas Raiders, became the first active NFL player to come out as gay.

One fear for Prokop was that people would assume he is making his announcement for attention. However, one of the biggest reasons he wanted to come out was to live authentically. Last season, he often had to hide his phone from teammates at the rink.

In his statement, Prokop thanked his “amazing family, friends and agents — who have known this about me and met me with love and support every step of the way.”

“I hope that in sharing who I am I can help other people see that gay people are welcome in the hockey community, as we work to make sure that hockey is truly for everyone,” Prokop wrote. “I may be new to the community, but I am eager to learn about the strong and resilient people who came before me and paved the way so I could be more comfortable today.”

The NHL has worked to be an ally for the LGBTQ+ community for more than a decade. Players from all 31 teams have wrapped their sticks in rainbow tape for Pride Night events. Several players, including Calgary Flames captain Mark Giordano and Vancouver Canucks goalie Braden Holtby, and executives such as Pittsburgh Penguins president of hockey operations Brian Burke and Toronto Maple Leafs general manager Kyle Dubas, have marched in local Pride parades.

In 2013, the NHL and NHL Players’ Association partnered with You Can Play, an organization that “works to ensure the safety and inclusion of all in sports — including LGBTQ+ athletes, coaches, and fans.”

“As NHL players, we all strive to contribute toward helping our teams achieve success on the ice. Any player who can help in those efforts should be welcomed as a teammate,” defenseman Ron Hainsey, then an NHLPA executive board member, said at the time. “This partnership solidifies the message that the hockey community believes in fairness and equality for everyone.”

Since Prokop came out to Predators management, he said he has received support behind the scenes from the NHL. He said NHL commissioner Gary Bettman called him recently and told him to reach out anytime.

“I share his hope that these announcements can become more common in the hockey community,” Bettman said in a statement. “LGBTQ players, coaches, and staff can only perform at their absolute best if they live their lives as their full and true selves. We do not take the meaning and importance of this announcement lightly.”

Bettman added that the NHL wants to give Prokop a “welcoming and affirmative” experience and that the league will support any other players who would follow “in his trailblazing footsteps.”

NHLPA executive director Don Fehr also lauded Prokop for his announcement.

“We know the NHL hockey community will support Luke as he strives toward his goal of playing in the NHL, and we applaud the example he is setting for those in the game of hockey and beyond,” Fehr said in a statement.

Prokop said, “It’s hard to put into words” what it will mean to skate in a game next season, knowing his truth is out there.

“I’m going to lace up my skates the same. I’m going to put my jersey on the same, strap up my helmet, put on my gloves,” Prokop said. “But I’m finally going to be able to breathe and exhale and show the world the real me. And I’m so excited to see where that can take me, not only as a hockey player but as a person as well.”

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Sean Robinson

Congrats to Milwaukee…

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/antetokounmpo-brothers-become-first-sibling-trio-to-win-nba-titles/ar-AAMppFw?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

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Todd

Let the women wear shorts!

https://www.boredpanda.com/norwegian-handball-women-shorts-bikini/

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Todd

“Nothing says ‘America only cares about rich white people’ like having Ralph Lauren design bougie Long Island yacht wear for our athletes.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-outfits-olympics-opening-cerem_n_60fabb62e4b0d1bafbfd72ac?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063&utm_campaign=us_main&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social&fbclid=IwAR1s4ziKLvClQ3JX1AYnOBA_lLI9sJmsH9lBbKjnUhHaTDqHDkndagtDaoc

Given the circumstances around it all (and the time difference) I wasn’t too fussed about watching much of the Olympics this year. I mainly just go for the handball and archery usually anyway, and I was keen to check out the skateboarding. Regardless, it’s disappointing to see that the usual imperial BBC coverage has been hobbled this year. Discovery+ bought the pan-European rights and sub-licensed them back to the Beeb on a very restricted deal. So instead of the comprehensive, multi-channel/stream coverage that allowed you to find and watch pretty much anything you wanted during 2012 and 2016, they’re limited to showing just two sports at the same time. Which is already causing problems as the gymnastics happens at the same time as the road cycling. There are going to be a lot of complaints over the next two weeks, I think, and the BBC’s going to get a lot of flak for what isn’t their fault.

The void has been filled a bit by Eurosport (a Discovery subsidary). They’ve spawned half a dozen more channels (down in the late 900s on the Sky EPG, where the BBC red button channel is, if you’re struggling to find them) but it’s not great. I’ve got the handball on now and they’ve got two different language commentaries running over it simultaneously. It’s impossible to follow.

[Al-x]

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This article about the 1994 Winter Olympics is an example of why black people feel shafted in competition of any kind.
This skater actually did a back flip, landed on one skate, finished her routine and still came in second. No one else ever did
a backflip. The question arises: What does it take?

Here:

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2019/03/07/surya-bonaly-skating-losers-netflix

I don’t know enough about skating to be able to judge for myself, but the article suggests it was a very close call for the judges between her and a Japanese opponent and she was ultimately awarded second place.

I do often find the scoring in these sports with a more artistic element to be hard to understand, as it seems like there is a subjective element (rather than an objective metric like speed, distance, height, weight etc. that you might see in other olympic sports).

Was there racism at play in this specific example? I don’t know enough about it to say either way, but I have heard anecdotally that the world of skating can be a bit snobbish and conservative, a bit unwelcoming to people who don’t follow the conventions of the sport. So maybe that could be part of it.

There are lots of great black sportsmen and women that you can point to as amazing successes at the highest level in lots of different fields, but that doesn’t mean that some degree of racism doesn’t persist in some of these more subjective events.

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njerry, Rocket

To each their own, but as I said before, that is why.

On a happier note, some pics of soccer players

Al-x wrote:

To each their own, but as I said before, that is why.

You said that black people feel shafted in competition of any kind. Is that deliberately overstating it, or is there really a sense that in all competitions black people feel discriminated against?

My point about sports where there is an objective metric of success was to say that there is at least an unarguable winner there, and there can’t be any kind of element of racism entering into a subjective judgement as with skating.

But I suppose there may still be a sense that those sports are not welcoming to black competitors more generally – is that part of what you were getting at? Are all sports like that?

Dave wrote:

You said that black people feel shafted in competition of any kind. Is that deliberately overstating it, or is there really a sense that in all competitions black people feel discriminated against?

My point about sports where there is an objective metric of success was to say that there is at least an unarguable winner there, and there can’t be any kind of element of racism entering into a subjective judgement as with skating.

But I suppose there may still be a sense that those sports are not welcoming to black competitors more generally – is that part of what you were getting at? Are all sports like that?

I can’t speak for every black person, but time and again, in sports, entertainment, and other venues, there has been controversy in years past.

Your point of an objective metric determining an unarguable winner is valid in some cases like a race to see the fastest. However the example I posted was not a competitive race, but an individual performance where the judges determine the best one.

1994 was what? 27 years ago? The black skater at the time felt shafted. This is especially after doing such an unprecedented move. She thought she got the gold but then….

Looking back, the accumulation of it all makes someone who is black kind of wonder.

Just saying…

This is some kick. Like an ace in tennis. Megan Rapinoe… Wow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0nye7KBupI

[garjones]

It’s a fair argument Al and something very hard to define in subjectively judged sports.

It is also an issue that the sports with little subjectivity, who can run fastest, swim fastest, lift the most weights or cycle the longest are also the most influenced by performance enhancing drugs.

Added to that is the liberal and well intentioned concept that everything is nurture. I think it’s a comfortable concept but it isn’t true. Jamaica is a country of only 3 million people. They dominate sprinting and it isn’t the system because Donovan Bailey of Canada and Linford Christie of GBR were born there too. I don’t expect to the end of my lifetime to see a white guy win the 100m because I think it’s impossible.

We racially have advantages and disadvantages that are exposed at elite level. Swimming is dominated by white athletes and I don’t think that will change, when we get down to hundredths of seconds the have an extra layer of fat that supports buoyancy. Quick reaction sports like table tennis and badminton are dominated by east Asians.

 

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by garjones.

garjones wrote:

We racially have advantages and disadvantages that are exposed at elite level. Swimming is dominated by white athletes and I don’t think that will change, when we get down to hundredths of seconds the have an extra layer of fat that supports buoyancy. Quick reaction sports like table tennis and badminton are dominated by east Asians.

Maybe that is true with these hairsplitting final finishes as you say but on the whole, as far as swimming is concerned: Blacks in the US on the whole don’t swim primarily because of segregation. When did they ever have prime beachfront property or have this access to swimming pools all day? In South Africa, there was outright apartheid.

I said before in the Winter Games how the Scandinavians dominate the Winter Sports, but no one is looking for a skiing or a bobsledding gene in them.

As for basketball in the NBA, that can be related to the affordability and the access of the game in urban neighborhoods and schools.

I am just saying that there are a lot of factors involved. Truth is, because countries, communities have access and promote different sports within themselves, you get all this. The world is stratified in so many areas.

If the world was equal in all things and EVERYONE had the same access, I feel you would get the hodgepodge results, like the old Benneton commercials and ads.

While I can see the merit in Gar’s points, I have to give the argument to Al. The bobsledding gene is a compelling point, giving him a solid 9.8 overall performance.

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Al-x, Dave

Thanks… as for the “What does it take?” and feeling shafted in every competition:

The Grammys: Three times in six years the overall chosen records winner actually apologized to the black competitor who they felt really should have won. Adele in her onstage acceptance speech spoke to Beyonce about her “Lemonade” album (Beyonce’s best effort to date) and pretty much felt ashamed that she won. A few years later, this white act McLemore swept the best rap categories and there was a HUGE backlash in media and critics that Kendrick Lamar, who made a groundbreaking album really should have swept it all. McLemore even broke up over all the backlash and hate. Then earlier this year, Billie Eillish practically apologized for winning over Megan Thee Stallion who many said made the better album.

Oscars: This year, Anthony Hopkins was so surprised he won and most of his speech was about the late Chadwick Boseman, who many said really should have won.

It goes on and on in other fields. Now, back to sports and my original example and point: The black skater did this unprecedented acrobatic move in her performance and that doesn’t count for anything?

This accumulation of “things” in many endeavors of competition make black people wonder whether something is going on and also the question: “What does it take?”

Are those examples fair though? In the case of awards winners praising their peers, that’s quite common and regardless of race often seems to be a polite gesture to recognise the strength of the field.

Regarding the Oscars example specifically, this year I felt like the Academy had gone quite some way to reflect diversity (seemingly quite intentionally after the backlash in previous years) with wins for Chloé Zhao, Daniel Kaluuya and Yuh-Jung Youn in major categories.

Does the lack of wins for Chadwick Boseman and Viola Davis in favour of wins for Anthony Hopkins and Frances McDormand undermine that? Would only a clean sweep of non-white winners be enough to dispel the idea that they are being discriminated against?

I’m not saying that discrimination doesn’t exist, but when there’s a subjective judgement at play I don’t think it’s fair to see every win for a white candidate over a non-white candidate as evidence of racism. Unless we’re operating on the assumption that the non-white candidates will always be the most deserving of the award.

Dave wrote:

I don’t think it’s fair to see every win for a white candidate over a non-white candidate as evidence of racism. Unless we’re operating on the assumption that the non-white candidates will always be the most deserving of the award.

That is not my assumption either and I am not saying EVERY win is evidence.

I don’t want to go back and forth with this. I am saying that to a black person, all these “incidents” add up making them wonder…

Al-x wrote:

I don’t want to go back and forth with this.

It’s difficult then because I think the subject demands a fairly detailed discussion.

I agree there is probably a degree of racism still inherent in a lot of these structures, especially ones with a lot of older white members like the Academy. They’ve been criticised for that in recent years and at least seem to be trying to address it (I’m talking about through their membership rather than specific award decisions).

Are some of these subjective individual decisions questionable? Yes, definitely. There will always be arguments over that regardless of the race issue.

But I’m not sure Chadwick Boseman’s loss to Hopkins, for example, is necessarily evidence of racism. I actually think the variety of winners this year suggests the opposite.

(Had all of the non-white candidates won the Academy would probably have been seen as being patronising and deliberately giving awards to those candidates just because they weren’t white, devaluing their achievement.)

So if people are taking things like this as evidence of racism, looking at high-profile losses for black candidates as an indication of bias, then I’m not sure they are always going to be drawing the right conclusions.

When non-white candidates are winning in large numbers alongside them, I think it’s harder to make the case that racism is shutting people out.

Who really cares who wins a Grammy (or an Emmy or an Oscar or a Tony)? Beyonce’s success as a studio artist and as a live performer is recognition enough. A short list of artists who’ve NEVER won a Grammy shows that race isn’t the only factor:

ABBA
Queen
Jimi Hendrix
Katy Perry
The Beach Boys
Bob Marley
Tupac Shakur
Guns N Roses
Nicki Minaj
Bjork
The Who
The Ramones
Diana Ross
Busta Rhymes
The Doors
Notorious B.I.G.
Buddy Holly

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Todd

Al-x wrote:

Maybe that is true with these hairsplitting final finishes as you say but on the whole, as far as swimming is concerned: Blacks in the US on the whole don’t swim primarily because of segregation.

They don’t but the US is far from the only country where back people live and the Olympics is open to all.

I’m not saying culture doesn’t play a part, I think we can see that in the way certain events have changed their racial makeup.

I do think though at the very very elite record breaking level where we measure 100ths of seconds that there are genetic advantages. If you think that swimmers and cyclists shave body hair to reduce resistance if you have an extra level of body fat it may be an unbeatable difference, just as at sprinting 100m it seems to be an unbeatable difference to have one less.

I fully expect in 50 years time the lineup for the 100m sprinting final will continue to have the same suspects as now and swimming the same.

garjones wrote:

I fully expect in 50 years time the lineup for the 100m sprinting final will continue to have the same suspects as now and swimming the same.

I dunno, they’ll be really old by then.

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Dave wrote:

It’s difficult then because I think the subject demands a fairly detailed discussion.

Did you read that @garjones? It appears he wants a Thought Provoking Thread.

I guess you should add that to your list right behind the cultural appropriation one. 😂

Al-x wrote:

Did you read that @garjones? It appears he wants a Thought Provoking Thread.

I think if a complex subject like this is brought up then it deserves detailed discussion. I’m not sure what the purpose is of just making the initial point but then not talking about it further.

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njerry

Dave wrote:

I think if a complex subject like this is brought up then it deserves detailed discussion. I’m not sure what the purpose is of just making the initial point but then not talking about it further.

True… I pretty much said my peace, but you are really into this now. What have I started! <shock emoji>

I was previously talking about cultural appropriation and @garjones said he was going to follow up on it. Now, we apparently have another subject for him as well.

Gareth, please step up as you are starting to fall behind. 😂

Al-x wrote:

I pretty much said my peace, but you are really into this now. What have I started!

A conversation?

But if you don’t want to talk about if further, fine, let’s drop it.

[Al-x]

Ok… I will get into it.

See @davewallace, from the standpoint of the person of color who did their best and even when the critics say that the poc gave the better performance, but when the judges give such a overwhelmingly controversial decision, it makes the poc wonder what is going on and what does it take to win.

Ask a friend who is black or brown about it.

It is bigger than sports though.

I am still waiting for Gareth to start the thread
somewhere. I am semi retired.😀

But this is not over… not by a long shot!

So far:

1) Cultural Appropriation
2) People of color feeling shafted in competition

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Al-x.
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The incomparable Sue Bird 👏

(h/t: @ByTimReynolds + @S10Bird) pic.twitter.com/NpQiyj4L6V

— CBC Sports (@cbcsports) August 8, 2021

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Todd

That reminds me, the Olympics should be coming up soon, yeah?

..

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What?

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DavidM, Rocket

La Liga is starting up soon, can’t wait to see Messi and Barcelona play again, right?

”

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”

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What?

[Al-x]

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Al-x.
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Todd

A little long, technical and sensational, but it is weird a grip glue is having more effect on a sport than PED’s.

Baseball is so weird.

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Todd