The Sandman – Spoiler Thread

Topic

Ok so I have seen the first episode.

The thread title warns of spoilers but I expect most have read Sandman (apart from Jon maybe) and this is pretty faithful to issue one of the comic – which I skim read again on DC Infinite to compare. There are a few minor changes but a lot is lifted straight from the page with some panel recreations like the image of the captured Sandman from the original splash page, this works well as they don’t slavishly follow it but grab bits that work.

This is definitely a show where they have taken a lot of care, unlike Jupiter’s Legacy it doesn’t look at all cheap. It’s very stylishly directed and shot. The casting is very good albeit a lot of the characters featured in this one, like Charles Dance, won’t come back.

There is an element of ‘tell don’t show’ to early Vertigo and that means there are little bits of clunkiness to it being adapted, they do use voiceover although fairly limited. My suspicion is, since the adaptation is pretty faithful, this’ll come and go depending on the story being told.

For viewers coming in cold they won’t get bored, there’s a lot of story for the running time (unlike JL again which moved at a snail’s pace) but I do wonder if the lack of a consistent POV character could be a problem. Admittedly it never did the books any harm and they still sell by the bucketload but it is unusual for a TV show.

Anyway I enjoyed it and will be watching the next one when it drop officially on Netflix tomorrow.

Replies

I’m hoping it’s not too faithful. When they started the audio versions a few years ago, I remember being disappointed that they were a pretty literal translation of the comics, with pretty much no updates to the material, and Gaiman defended it by saying he was saving all of the updates and edits of things he would have done differently for this adaptation.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Dave

paul f wrote:

I’m hoping it’s not too faithful.

We shall see. It is clearly telling the same story but there are tweaks in there.  The episode has a new framing device, they simplify some aspects of the first issue and bring the ravens and Corinthian in earlier than the book. I think the narrative works better.

There are things coming up like amalgamating John and Johanna Constantine into the same character. While episode 1 is probably 80% a direct issue to episode translation that won’t be the same for the rest of it as from what Gaiman says in the chat with George RR Martin they put at the start of the preview they’ll cover about 400 pages in the first season.

Episodes 2 and 3 are better, less clunky, better paced and there’s more character work.

Watched eps 1-3.

I wish they hadn’t started with Preludes and Nocturnes, or at least not a version as close to the comics. It’s always been my least favourite arc in the series, the book doesn’t get good until Death shows up in #8.

I get why it’s necessary, in terms of the main arc of the series, but they could have come up with a different storyline with the same result, or at least not taken up so many episodes on this storyline.

It’s commonly held P&N isn’t the best but I would say they get through the material faster here, it’s done by episode 5 (which is an excellent episode by the way, the one The Guardian may be overhyping below but very good).

garjones wrote:

It’s commonly held P&N isn’t the best but I would say they get through the material faster here, it’s done by episode 5 (which is an excellent episode by the way, the one The Guardian may be overhyping below but very good).

I wouldn’t call spending five episodes on seven issues “fast,” but yes, the fifth episode is very good. I always liked the Sandman stories where Dream only appeared on the sidelines in the comic more than the ones where he was the lead, and I can see that being true here too.

paul f wrote:

I wouldn’t call spending five episodes on seven issues “fast,”

Neither did I, I said it was ‘faster’. 😉

More seriously I think it benefits from ditching the DCU stuff around John Dee. It’s the weakest material in P&N and the diner story is the strongest.

It does have a “Netflix series” feel to it – like The Wtcher, Locke &Key or Umbrella Academy. However, a lot of that “fantasy” look today was inspired by art associated with Vertigo comics and its early precursors like Sandman, Swamp Thing and  Preacher. Also, other 90’s aesthetic models like David Fincher’s Fight Club. I felt Good Omens suffered a bit from that while Preacher didn’t. So, it fits Sandman more than other series.

Dream is a bit more lively than in comics even though he is something of a background character. Though not as strong a departure as Lucifer, there seems to be more vigor and humanity in him. He’s not the inhuman embodiment of a cosmic idea that creates and guides dreams throughout the universe.

it will be interesting to see how they deal with the sections where dream intersected with the DC universe. I know they cut them out but some of them have bearing on the stories of the comics. Also, I wonder if they even bring up that dream, like all the Endless, exist for every sentient race in existence or will he be solely terrestrial.

Anonymous wrote:

it will be interesting to see how they deal with the sections where dream intersected with the DC universe. I know they cut them out but some of them have bearing on the stories of the comics.

Gaiman spoke a bit about that yesterday. They aren’t restricted on the DC stuff as it’s a Warner Bros production but a creative choice that it was too complicated (e.g. if you use JLA characters they are the JLA of 1989 and not now and how does that fit in with the movies etc) so they decided to make it a Sandman Universe. It’s not in the DCU.

There are characters that originated in the DCU still in it though, like Lyta Hall, Glob and Brute, Cain and Abel etc.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Watched the first 3 eps… I know nothing of the CB, but this was neat overall… glad to hear it’s faithful to the source stories… I’m guessing the CBs featured John Constantine and not Johanna… I do know there’s a Johanna in the CBs though (don’t recall the details), and I’m guessing they’re using her because of rights issues rather than just gender-bending? I still would’ve prefered to see John, tbh.

Anyways, it’s a bit slow-ish but it’s good… I really appreciate the fact that it’s not just actors in front of a green screen/whatever that SW thing is called… the camera work is nice, the world looks real and that’s really cool. I really like that Morpheus looks like a Cure member, glad they didn’t modernize his look too much… I’ve seen that they changed Death, which is very unfortunate, but at least they kept Morpheus “period accurate”.

Oh, one complain though: Jesus fuck can we ban Patton Oswald from doing comic book shit please??? It really takes me out of anything I hear him on because he’s fuckin everywhere… I didn’t mind him playing Happy, but man, him doing VA for comicbook shit is REALLY OLD!!!

Jon wrote:

I’m guessing the CBs featured John Constantine and not Johanna… I do know there’s a Johanna in the CBs though (don’t recall the details), and I’m guessing they’re using her because of rights issues rather than just gender-bending?

Yeah those scenes are originally with John Constantine and Johanna appears elsewhere in Sandman in the past in revolutionary France.

According to Gaiman though the reason for the change is neither rights nor gender bending, they thought it would be easier for the audience to have the descendent be another Johanna and use the same actress. I suspect though the previous Constantine movie and TV show would contribute to that as they said similarly they didn’t want to muddy the waters with Lucifer and refer to that show.

I just finished episode 5 and I’m enjoying it a lot. After episode one (which is the weakest so far) it leans into the fantasy stuff much more and is more visually interesting. It’s never going to quite match the style of the comic but it has its moments with some nice visual flourishes here and there.

Generally the casting is pretty good too, lots of decent actors in bit parts. Cain and Abel are perfect, Coleman is really good as Constantine and Thewlis is amazing and maybe the best thing in the show.

There are a couple of misfires – Lucienne’s race/gender swap doesn’t bother me but the actress is a bit flat, and the Corinthian is slightly cheesy – but mostly it’s solid. And the production values are very decent.

Ultimately I feel it’s a good adaptation of the comic that plays it fairly safe, but probably that was the right decision rather than a massive departure. It’s a good show.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S, garjones

Dave wrote:

Thewlis is amazing and maybe the best thing in the show.

Isn’t he incredible? Perfect casting.

Even if Dee deviates most from the comic in appearance and backstory he just commands every scene.

There are a couple of perfect castings visually later, Fry as Fiddler’s Green is an obvious one but the guy who plays ‘Funland’ is taken straight from the page.

Lyta Hall distracted me as she really looks like a young Nigella Lawson.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Dave

Watched the first four eps.

This is very cleverly done.  I’ve read the comics, Sandie hasn’t and it works well for the both of us.  That is very smart writing.

There’s also a sense of restraint on the horror aspects, which racks up the sense of psychological unease.

Finish off with excellent casting and these eps were quite something.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Dave

Like with the comic, I was mixed on the first arc, liked the fifth episode, and loved the back half of the season.

It’s slightly frustrating how little we get of characters like Death and the other Endless, seeing how great they are and knowing how much they get to do later on, when they’re little more than cameos for now.

I wasn’t that excited for the series before it started, but can’t wait for Season Two now.

Stephen Fry’s now appeared in three of my favourite shows of the year, with this, The Dropout, and Heartstopper (though he’s only a voice in that).

It is hard to judge it exactly from the pilot as it is not really a pilot episode in any traditional sense. Even for a mini-series, the first episode usually establishes the relationships that will recur throughout the story or the nature of the plots of future episodes. Sandman barely does any of this. The relationships in the story are not too deep and nothing really changes as Dream is stuck in a bottle most of the episode. Then at the end, Dream wreaks an ambiguous vengeance on the antagonist of the story — only in this case, the antagonist is not the worst person in the story AND he is really the protagonist. Even the bad guys had good motivation for going bad. So, Dream ends up remaining fairly ambiguous and undefined as a supernatural antagonist in this story.

Alex is a weak protagonist, but his actions – though almost always accidental – are the story. Dream is just the menacing force poisoning his life and eventually damning him to an eternal nightmare.

However, it is true to the comics, I believe. It is a trait Gaiman picked up from his idols like Moore and Zelazny. The lead of the story is the bad guy, but in this case we don’t really have any necessarily sold idea of who dream is or what he can do. It is more like an opening scene to a movie than the first episode of a series.

In that sense, I think it may have success but limited appeal. I came out with a clearer idea of the story trajectory and character arcs of The Witcher or The Umbrella Academy even though I had not read them (or played the Witcher) than I did with The Sandman even though I certainly have read all the Sandman comics starting when they were first published.

Hmmm… I think the idea is for Morpheus to be ambiguous in the 1st episode, tbh… because that’s what he comes across as for sure, and it kinda worked… well for me… I like the idea of first establishing the character as a force of nature and being explored through they eyes of other people… certainly not a new narrative approach, but a rather fresh one as far as CB adaptations go… so I’m cool with that. It’s kinda like what they did in the Godzilla movie and tendo to do in horror movies, and it’s rather fitting all in all… =P

It did pick up well around episode 3 though still slow.

though it does make me think this would be a good way to adapt Clive Barker. His work is more horror fantasy. More Creepshow than Creepy. Cabal (Nightbreed) or Weaveworld — even Hellraiser— fit in well with Sandman, Neverwhere and American Gods.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Todd

I’ve watched the first 4 episodes. I think they’ve done a really great job adapting it. The problem is that Preludes & Nocturnes was always a bit slow and disjointed. Although I disagree that The Sound of Her Wings is the first good issue. I’ve always enjoyed A Hope in Hell and the 24 Hour Diner issues. Sound of Her Wings is just where Gaiman seems to fully find the right voice and direction for the rest of the series.

Anyway, very pleased with what I’ve seen so far. Really it’s successful and gets all the way to the end.

3 users thanked author for this post.

garjones, Ben, Dave

I think it was mostly great. Loved David Thewlis, and Stephen Fry as Gilbert was perfect (but should have been given more to do.)

And there were some nice small details. Like the poster for Mucus Membrane in Johanna Constantines Newcastle dream.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Ben

I’m almost at the end of the first episode — when does Cain Marko show up?!

3 users thanked author for this post.

Todd, Vikram, Dave

Watched the rest in two lots of three.

24/7 was a very well executed, very uneasy piece with the violence only really happening at the end, but with all the preparation preceding it.

A recurring theme across the series episodes is humans applying human thinking to Dream, who isn’t. And that thinking tends to be narrow and binary.  Though, towards the end, Dream finds this may not always be so.

What is really remarkable is how well the material both jumps the years and into a new medium.  The Sound of her Wings was particularly clever, but Dream’s ending speech to the cereal convention was a perfectly on-target evisceration of today’s right-wing, written 30 years earlier.  Although the recurring conversations in the pub, over the centuries, also made for a neat skewering.

Casting was very, very smart – with Fry being perfect, but the others also worked well. I really liked what they did with Gault too.

At this point the series biggest threat is either Netflix or WB getting cold feet and being trigger happy on cancelling it.

Jon wrote:

Hmmm… I think the idea is for Morpheus to be ambiguous in the 1st episode, tbh… because that’s what he comes across as for sure, and it kinda worked… well for me… I like the idea of first establishing the character as a force of nature and being explored through they eyes of other people… certainly not a new narrative approach, but a rather fresh one as far as CB adaptations go… so I’m cool with that. It’s kinda like what they did in the Godzilla movie and tend to do in horror movies, and it’s rather fitting all in all… =P

Honestly, the first two episodes are more like one two part pilot. The series faces a few big challenges. First, obviously, it will have an impossible task living up to the comics which fleshed out Moore’s Swamp Thing and developed into the largest continuous universe in DC’s Vertigo line. The series is certainly not trying to be a phenomenon like the comics.

The next biggest challenge is that each scene has a lot of exposition to deliver while at the same time maintaining dramatic tension between the characters present on screen as well as connect to the larger plot over the entire episode and series. This is done quite well especially intercutting between Dream and the progress of secondary characters like Johanna, Edith, Johnny and Rose.

Finally, balancing the fantasy and horror with the demands of the story. When you have characters who use magic then there is the risk of setting up a story where anything can happen and that paradoxically lessens the impact. In literary terms, Morpheus is not really the lord of dreams, but he is the lord of stories. As we often discuss, real dreams are nothing like stories and dreams in movies, television, comics and fiction are nothing like real dreams either. Morpheus (which means “the shaper” or the “form”) represents the mind that gives form to the chaos of imagination. In a sense, Dream is an artist whose lost theme of his work and his struggle to impose order on the anarchy of his realm – the imagination – mirrors an artist going through his process.

I do wonder if it will have much appeal outside the US, UK and Europe, though. Because my wife is a big fan of them, I’ve seen a lot of supernatural dramas from Korea, China, Japan and Thailand (many also on Netflix), and, like period or modern setting dramas, they revolve around a continuous cast of series regulars that are constantly interacting and conflicting with each other in changing relationships. Much more like prime-time soaps. Most other hit series have that same format as well – a lot of characters involved with each other over long periods of story time. The Sandman doesn’t really offer that. It is much a Lone Stranger kind of story with Dream entering and exiting characters’ lives with only a few companions that support him but are not directly involved in or objects for his active role in the plot.

garjones wrote:

There are characters that originated in the DCU still in it though, like Lyta Hall, Glob and Brute, Cain and Abel etc.

If I recall correctly, Etrigan the Demon guided Morpheus at the gates of Hell in the comics, right? Interesting that they did not use him, but expanded the Squatterbloat role into something far more like a monster from the Diablo or Dante’s Inferno games. It was a nice choice, but I’d like to see Etrigan in something live action from DC. Maybe if Constantine or Swamp Thing hadn’t been cancelled, he would’ve become a DC/CW character.

One thing I really liked about Gaiman’s idea of Hell is that demons increased their power by devouring other lesser demons. Also, Lucifer expanded this farther on by having the demon race – rather than all being fallen angels – they were born out of the formless chaos or “darkness” outside creation making Lucifer something like English royalty- a ruler who is usually not from a native-born family in the land he/she rules surrounded by nobles who are. Also, the idea that the feudal system in Hell was simply a fashion taken up to mimic the damned humans was imaginative.

It would be interesting if a new more faithful Lucifer series could emerge from Sandman should it be sufficiently successful.

 

Finished it this evening. I found the back half of the season (post episode 6) to be a bit of a drag, partly because it ditches the more episodic format and tells a longer story over multiple episodes, and partly because I’ve never loved the Doll’s House storyline (although the convention stuff is fun) and I’m keen for them to get onto the better stuff that I know is to come later.

I also found Stephen Fry to be a bit grating, doing his usual performance in a role which felt like it called for something a bit more emotive.

Episodes 5 and 6 were the highlight for me and I think they best show what the series is capable of. Let’s hope they get a renewal so that they can take on some of the better later stories from the comics.

(Although with all the upheaval at both Netflix and WB, that might be less of a dead-cert than I would otherwise have thought.)

2 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S, Ben

Chris D wrote:

Although I disagree that The Sound of Her Wings is the first good issue. I’ve always enjoyed A Hope in Hell and the 24 Hour Diner issues. Sound of Her Wings is just where Gaiman seems to fully find the right voice and direction for the rest of the series.

I agree. It’s no coincidence that my favourite episodes of this season were those ones, because they’re the best issues of the early part of the run. I think it shows what a close and faithful adaptation it is.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Chris-S

Here’s a question, Burgess dies in the basement in front of Dream. That means Death would have had to have been in there at that moment. However, she did nothing to help him. And he later complains that his family didn’t help him so he decided not to go to them for help finding his tools.

Why didn’t she help him? Why didn’t Dream even bring it up when they met again?

She does suggest in episode 6 that she isn’t present at every single death.

I don’t like the title music. I always imagined Sandman with Kate Bush. :D

 

Other than that, eh I guess it is OK. It’s just not very exciting because it follows the story from the book, so no surprises. Same feeling I had with Watchmen.

I’ve just finished episode 8.

Its a mixed bag, one that feels like it’s definitely tailing off now, with episodes 7 and 8 feeling extremely dragged out and mediocre.

The first 4 episodes were pretty good, gradually getting better and hitting a peak in episode 5  which was fantastic.
Episode 6 was also great and handled the Hob storyline perfectly, after a really boring opening 15-20 mins. The actress the plays Death doesn’t have much about her to carry off such an iconic character so the whole thing falls flat and feels a bit like modern Dr Who, especially with the Albert Square accent.

7 and 8 are like a different show.

im glad they have stuck to the source material for the most parts It takes real arrogance to veer from great source material when adapting to live action. We’ve seen dozens of shows fail due to that sort of hubris. And perhaps this is where the latter half starts to go wrong because there’s a bit of deviation from the story and it’s not for the betterment of the show.

Im going to take a bit of a hiatus now and approach 9 and 10 fresher, hopefully it picks up again. If not I can see them losing some viewers for the second half who might not return.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Dave

Yeah this was pretty good… a little slow at the tail end of the season, not as engaging as 1-6, but good enough. Now let’s hope Netflix continues it, but given the response to it seems to be overwhelmingly positive, there’s good chances of it.

I really wish they’d kept Death as a white goth chick… the actress here does a wonderful job in terms of personality, so I’m not complaining too much, but I dunno, I feel both Dream and Death are both goth fashion icons, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a goth black person, so the “white” thing seems kinda necessary in this instance… plus they already diversified the show plenty, so it would’ve been nice to have a more faithful Death (not having read Sandman, even I read the very famous Death GN, for example, so yeah, she’s definitely an icon even to me).

Other than that and the Patton Oswalt of it all (and yes, he does a fine job but fuck me), it was mostly fine. Maybe I would’ve chosen someone else for Lucifer… Gwendoline Christie is still very femenine and I would’ve liked to see someone more androgynous for that role, but I guess they wanted Desire to fill that particular role, and boy that actor delivers like a motherfucker despite having very few scenes, so I guess it’s fine.

I hope they delve a lot more into the other siblings in S2, even if that means a departure from the source material, because 7-10 could’ve used a lot more of that… I mean, for me that’s by far the most interesting aspect of the story so far, so I’d like more of that and less of the human characters if possible (or more balanced is what I mean).

I remember feeling the same in the early stages of the comic and wishing they would explore the other Endless more.

But as in the comic, I do think that the family stuff works best as a gradual through-line, revealed sparingly, rather than focusing on all that too early.

There are still lots more good stories to tell from the comic that aren’t all about the Endless – I’m keen to see the show get to those more than anything else.

Chris-S wrote:

I’ve just finished episode 8.

Its a mixed bag, one that feels like it’s definitely tailing off now, with episodes 7 and 8 feeling extremely dragged out and mediocre.

The first 4 episodes were pretty good, gradually getting better and hitting a peak in episode 5  which was fantastic.
Episode 6 was also great and handled the Hob storyline perfectly, after a really boring opening 15-20 mins. The actress the plays Death doesn’t have much about her to carry off such an iconic character so the whole thing falls flat and feels a bit like modern Dr Who, especially with the Albert Square accent.

7 and 8 are like a different show.

im glad they have stuck to the source material for the most parts It takes real arrogance to veer from great source material when adapting to live action. We’ve seen dozens of shows fail due to that sort of hubris. And perhaps this is where the latter half starts to go wrong because there’s a bit of deviation from the story and it’s not for the betterment of the show.

Im going to take a bit of a hiatus now and approach 9 and 10 fresher, hopefully it picks up again. If not I can see them losing some viewers for the second half who might not return.

Yeah, it does seem quite different when Rose takes prominence. Also, the show’s set up eliminates some of the more interesting plot turns. First, it’s loses the interesting twist from the comics when you know it is serial killers from the beginning. Also, serial killers is not the theme it used to be back when the comic was written. Also, the fact that Dream hasn’t actively gone after the Corinthian after returning is another question since they made a point of using the Corinthian to explain why Dream came to the mortal world before he was captured. It sets up the story – Morpheus will follow Rose and she will draw in the fugitive Dream folk, but it is again a little cracked.

The show becomes more conventional in that it had nicely balanced tension, character development, exposition and plot progression all at the same time, but now it splits them up so it feels slower and less dramatic.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Chris-S

Assuming it gets a second season, I’ll be most interested to see how they handle some of the more stand-alone issues like Calliope and Midsummer’s Night Dream. Because presumably season 2 will almost entirely be Season of Mists. I would guess they’d find away to structure it so some of those issues are integrated into larger Season of Mists storyline. Others might just be tossed aside to streamline things. As of now it seems like they probably have a 4 to 5 season plan, but who knows.

Chris D wrote:

Assuming it gets a second season, I’ll be most interested to see how they handle some of the more stand-alone issues like Calliope and Midsummer’s Night Dream.

I suspect they’ll flit them in and out of the main narrative, rather than as Dream Country did just run several standalone stories in a row.

A bit like the way they put the Hob Gadling story in earlier because it doesn’t matter much where it appears. Gaiman has said, if they get given the seasons, he also wants to include the various stories in OGNs like Dream Hunters, Endless Nights and the Death minis. The plan would be to fit them in where it seems most suitable rather than run them in the same order as publication.

garjones wrote:

Chris D wrote:

Assuming it gets a second season, I’ll be most interested to see how they handle some of the more stand-alone issues like Calliope and Midsummer’s Night Dream.

I suspect they’ll flit them in and out of the main narrative, rather than as Dream Country did just run several standalone stories in a row.

A bit like the way they put the Hob Gadling story in earlier because it doesn’t matter much where it appears. Gaiman has said, if they get given the seasons, he also wants to include the various stories in OGNs like Dream Hunters, Endless Nights and the Death minis. The plan would be to fit them in where it seems most suitable rather than run them in the same order as publication.

I imagine if they get a second season, it will be Season of Mists (the Hell arc, teased at the end of S1), A Game of You (the Barbie arc, also set up in S1), and a few more standalones.

After that the only real arcs left are Brief Lives and The Kindly Ones, everything else is mostly standalones and epilogues, so those would probably be split over two seasons, maybe include Dream Hunters and The High Cost of Living in S3.

I’m glad Ep. 6 of this season set up the precedent that they can just split an episode in half and do multiple stories in one ep, rather than stretch them out.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Ben

So here I sit on the fence. Having watched the first two episodes, I have to decide if I want to watch eps 3 through 6 (considered the best of the bunch), knowing that I will then feel obliged to watch eps 7 through 10 (the worst of the bunch). Or should I just cut my losses and move on to season 2 of ONLY MURDERS IN THE BUILDING?

Decisions, decisions…

2 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S

Only Murders is much more consistently good and entertaining, but you can watch episodes 3-6 of Sandman and then leave it there happily without feeling compelled to watch more.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Chris-S

Dave wrote:

She does suggest in episode 6 that she isn’t present at every single death.

I’m not sure that’s what it meant as they then say she doesn’t for Mad Hetty and ‘your project’ which is Hob Gadling.

There are potential plot holes in his missing years, the other is that Jessamy could have flown to the Dreaming to tell Lucienne where he is. They also skirt around why Unity is so spry when she should be 106 because they added 30 years on to the comic version to make it up to date.

njerry wrote:

I have to decide if I want to watch eps 3 through 6 (considered the best of the bunch), knowing that I will then feel obliged to watch eps 7 through 10 (the worst of the bunch).

That’s a matter of opinion. I’m more with Paul that the Preludes and Nocturnes material isn’t the best, apart from the diner story. It’s not unexpected I guess that it divides opinion because it’s pretty faithful adaptation and the comic itself shifts from what are kind of standalone stories in a wider arc to an ongoing story in the Doll’s House.

garjones wrote:

I’m not sure that’s what it meant as they then say she doesn’t for Mad Hetty and ‘your project’ which is Hob Gadling.

I agree it’s not the meaning in that scene but it does acknowledge the possibility.

Really though it doesn’t make sense even within Sandman for there to be a single entity like Death who has to be present at every death, especially not the way it’s shown here. Dream doesn’t have to be present in every dream for it to happen.

Yeah I mean it asks a lot of the same Santa Claus questions. I’m fine to let this kind of stuff go personally. A little bit of just accepting things like that is always necessary in fantasy narratives. They are little things you can ‘no prize’ away rather than plot holes that wreck the narrative.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Dave

Accurate.

Kicking back to enjoy another episode of #TheSandmanNetflix and OH FUCK OH SHIT IT’S THE ONE IN THE DINER 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱

— Mitch Benn 🇬🇧🇪🇺 (@MitchBenn) August 9, 2022

Dave wrote:

Only Murders is much more consistently good and entertaining, but you can watch episodes 3-6 of Sandman and then leave it there happily without feeling compelled to watch more.

This would be my suggestion also. Just leave it after 6, there’s no reason to watch on. I was advised similar, I didn’t listen, now I want those 4 hours of my life back.

2 users thanked author for this post.

njerry, Dave

Count me in the ConstanTEEN club, but…

Netflix’s Sandman ‘Constantine’ pronunciation debate was settled by DC comics decades ago – Newsarama/Gamesradar

Despite the ConstanTEEN – ConstanTINE debate, a 1988 issue of Swamp Thing settled how to pronounce ‘Constantine

In October 2021, Gaiman himself tweeted about the pronunciation(opens in new tab), writing, “In the comics he pronounced it Constantyne and people who pronounced it Constanteen either did it through ignorance or to tease him (like Mad Hettie). On TV and films it’s the other way around.”

In a follow-up tweet(opens in new tab), he shared a panel from Swamp Thing #73 (1988), written and penciled by Rick Veitch, inked by Alfredo Alcala, colored by Tatjana Wood, and lettered by John Costanza, as well as a panel from Hellblazer #40 (1991), written by Jamie Delano, illustrated and colored by Dave McKean, and lettered by Gaspar Saladino, in which the name is sung to rhyme with ‘design.’

Letterer Jim Campbell even jumped in(opens in new tab) to confirm that Alan Moore pronounced it ‘ConstanTINE,’ tweeting, “I spoke to Alan Moore about Swamp Thing at a signing, back in the mists of history when he still did such things, and he *absolutely* pronounces it ConstanTINE not ConstanTEEN.”

So, there you have it. Despite years of differentiation between comics and screen, Johanna Constantine’s appearance in Netflix’s The Sandman has finally united and corrected the pronunciation of her name.

Yeah Moore has consistently used the Constantyne pronunciation in interviews, he invented him and he’s a pal and mentor of Gaiman. So it’s not really a debate.

The funny thing is a lot of people call it a US/UK difference. It really isn’t. The American song ‘Oh My Darling Clementine’ uses ‘tyne’ and the British hot drink ‘Ovaltine’ uses ‘teen’. In the video below is a Brit talking about Emperor Constanteen.

It’s just a quirk of personal choice. You can use either, as English as usual has no rules surrounding it, and Moore picked that one.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Sean Robinson

[Sean Robinson]

garjones wrote:

Oh My Darling Clementine’

I get the ‘Tyne’ part of (Oh my darling) Clementine, it sounds natural as all hell.

On this side of the Atlantic, without a song to support, “Constantine” (Tyne) is awkward, awkward as all hell.

___________________________________________

Can’t find something to properly click on (and save), but search “constantine pronunciation”
and American and British

kaan·stuhn·teen

kon·stuhn·tine

Had something, but not allowed, then found below (actually havent watched)
Maybe should go to bed.
Dont tell me what to do !

Constant-een

• This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by Sean Robinson.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by Sean Robinson.

1 user thanked author for this post.

garjones wrote:

Yeah Moore has consistently used the Constantyne pronunciation in interviews, he invented him and he’s a pal and mentor of Gaiman. So it’s not really a debate. The funny thing is a lot of people call it a US/UK difference. It really isn’t. The American song ‘Oh My Darling Clementine’ uses ‘tyne’ and the British hot drink ‘Ovaltine’ uses ‘teen’. In the video below is a Brit talking about Emperor Constanteen. It’s just a quirk of personal choice. You can use either, as English as usual has no rules surrounding it, and Moore picked that one.

Knowing Moore, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s also a deliberate allusion to the Tyne (which for anyone who doesn’t know is a major river in the North of England, which is pronounced to rhyme with wine).

Remember that in his earliest appearances he was consciously based on Sting who is from North Tyneside. And of course subsequently we learn Newcastle has an important place in John’s history.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S, garjones

Can’t find something to properly click on (and save), but search “constantine pronunciation”
and American and British

Yes but I don’t agree with it. There isn’t a set pronunciation of ‘tine’ in the UK and neither is there in the US.

I could be persuaded it is used more in one than the other but it struck me particularly because I would also say ‘teen’ by default.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Dave

garjones wrote:

So it’s not really a debate.

Unlike *checks notes* climate change, the shape of the earth and whether vaccines are actually microchips.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Todd, Sean Robinson

Sean Robinson wrote:

Had something, but not allowed

Ah, happens to me all the time.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Sean Robinson

So, I’ve finally started on this and am four episodes in. And I have to say this really works for me. Phew.

First episode – This one felt like they tried to cram too much into one episode. More like a summary of a story than a story. They could’ve let Fawney Rig breather some more and used two episodes to tell this story, but I can understand that they didn’t want to have the main character just sit around in a glass cage for two episodes. Other than that, it was fine. The viusal of Morpheus in the basement was great, everything else worked okay. Giving the Corinthian more to do is probably a good decision (I think they were right that they need an antagonist for the whole first season) and I was okay with bringing Jessamy in to provide a little tension and emotional punch. Also thought it was an okay decision to make Alex into a bit of a viewpoint character, although I wouldn’t have needed that. Would rather have seen more of Old Man Burgess and, like, the beatniks and stuff.

Second ep – Bit of a transition one, wasn’t it? Setting stuff up. Cain and Abel were pretty good, though it’s a shame they didn’t have Dream strand with them like it was in the book and did the Gregory thing instead. That’s one thing I would’ve liked to see differently; it would’ve at the same time made everything more fun and a bit silly, but it also would’ve allowed us to get closer to these two characters and it would’ve given Abel’s story more emotional grounding for us (that bit would always make me cry in the book). But again, they got the gist of it all right and I had fun watching.

Third ep – this is the one where things really take off for me. Neat little Constantine story (I love that they gave her a sideplot!), and a very satisfying overall plot to the episode. And finally some room for the characters to talk and breathe. And Matthew as a counterpoint to Dream’s earnestness already works. Still would’ve prefered a male, and most importantly more fucked-up, Constantine (Coleman is just too posh and too – well, clean, I guess, even while she’s swearing). Bit of a shame they turned down the horror aspect of that appartment – that was another mistake in my opinion. Cool Constantine references all over the place (I whooped when they mentioned Kit!).

Fourth ep – The hell stuff was quite good, I thought, even if you could see they didn’t want to burn through all of their budget with this. Brienne as Lucifer worked well enough, as did the whole hell thing. Matthew helping in the duel was silly and too on the nose, that one was a mistake. Other than that, hell worked fine, but this episode already belongs to David Thewlis really. The car scenes were just amazingly intense, and I can’t wait to get into that diner. Oh, it was cool that Nada actually popped up, I didn’t really expect that. It’s nice that we already get to see what a prick Dream can be.

1 user thanked author for this post.

They just uploaded a bonus eleventh episode, Dream of a Thousand Cats/Calliope!

1 user thanked author for this post.

garjones

2 users thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective, Todd

I liked the extra episode, Dream of a Thousand cats had nice animation, voice artists and I think they were wise in the running time. Sometimes adapting a 24 page comic can take more than an hour and sometimes 16 minutes.

A little more mixed on Calliope, the casting in one aspect was great – you can’t go wrong with Derek Jacobi and Arthur Darvill really works as Richard Madoc because he has that nice guy quality inherently and it enhances how much of a shit he becomes. The actress playing Calliope though was very flat, in the comic you really feel her suffering but here she just seems grumpy. A rare mis-step in their casting in this series.

Thinking about this, I wonder if it’s a bad sign for the show. The first season was over and they had a ready-made episode they could have used as part of the second season run. But they just chuck it out two weeks later as an extra. It makes me wonder if they might not be planning for the show to come back.

Then again, could be they always planned it like this. But it feels weirdly throwaway and not how Netflix usually do things.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Chris-S

I haven’t watched the extra episode yet, but I imagine releasing it later to keep any buzz the show might have, was the plan. I don’t Understand why Netflix don’t just change up their release plan for their bigger shows.
This season could easily have been split into 5 episode chunks a couple weeks apart. I like the binge model, but the way these shows come and go within the space of a weekend, is pretty unsatisfying in the long run.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective, Dave

I don’t think it’s a bad sign personally.

Dave’s scenario is possible but there are many others. Stranger Things showed Netflix may be leaning a bit on their insistence on instant dump. Holding 2 episodes of Stranger Things back a month or two was unnecessary really, they could have just waited as its their most popular show, I think they wanted to prolong the buzz.

They could have been holding this back for a Christmas Special type affair (like the one-off Black Mirror) but they did make a bit of an error in leaking two snippets of episode 11 in a Gogglebox type show they run and then pulled it down very quickly. So that may have accelerated dropping this one today or a two week plan was always there.

Whichever it is Gaiman says they have been told Netflix now wait a month, and review numbers. We’ll know in a couple of weeks whether they renew it. From the limited data they do give the show has been very successful in hours watched, far higher than Umbrella Academy which they just renewed for a 4th season. What is in their algorithm remains a mystery, it will include budget, it will include subscriber activity, which means just looking at hours viewed alone doesn’t give the answers TV ratings used to.

Speculation aside, I thought the new episode was pretty good. Two stories I liked from the comics, brought to life well. It’s reinforced for me that the show is at its best with these self-contained and relatively standalone episodes.

Ian Smith wrote:

I haven’t watched the extra episode yet, but I imagine releasing it later to keep any buzz the show might have, was the plan. I don’t Understand why Netflix don’t just change up their release plan for their bigger shows.
This season could easily have been split into 5 episode chunks a couple weeks apart. I like the binge model, but the way these shows come and go within the space of a weekend, is pretty unsatisfying in the long run.

I agree. A lot of streaming services are veering back towards the weekly model now, which suits me.

If you really want to binge-watch, you can just wait until the season is over and do it then.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S, garjones

To be honest Sandman is a weird narrative. It has a lead character that isn’t hugely sympathetic and often doesn’t appear much in the stories (the Judge Dredd issue it has been hard to work on film), the longer arcs tend to focus on modern day humans which is more relatable to a lot of the audience but others will prefer the high fantasy.

This adaptation has its flaws, I think in places it fixes some problems (the contract thing in issue 2 is weak sauce narratively, sacrificing Gregory is much stronger) but interestingly as it is 90% faithful with a few tweaks they can all be applied to the comic as well.

It’s viewed so highly because it challenges storytelling convention while also being all about stories. They have escalated the Dream v Lucifer conflict which (sorry Jon but this comic is 30 years old) will end in no conflict at all but a different sideways challenge.

I’m amazed they’ve been able to make it this closely so hope they get the chance to run it to the end. If they get what such an ignored show as Umbrella Academy has they could mange it. In ideal circumstances they run to 5.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Dave

Dave wrote:

If you really want to binge-watch, you can just wait until the season is over and do it then.

100%.

It really has been forgotten that binge watching did not start with Netflix. I had DVDs of Lost and BSG in the 2000s where I appreciated flicking on to the next one but that was a choice from joining late.

I loved Breaking Bad, have never watched Better Call Saul and I will binge that show some day and love it, same with Peaky Blinders on my list.

Dumping everything kills conversation, kills media buzz. Netflix do it alone in streaming because the other players copied everything else off them apart from that because it is a shit idea. We’re discussing ep 11 here today because we watched it together as a one off drop. The conversation otherwise died.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S, Uncle Retrospective, Dave

garjones wrote:

It really has been forgotten that binge watching did not start with Netflix. I had DVDs of Lost and BSG in the 2000s where I appreciated flicking on to the next one

For me the big one was 24. Those cliffhangers forced you to keep watching! I only got up to change the disc.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective, garjones

garjones wrote:

Dumping everything kills conversation, kills media buzz. Netflix do it alone in streaming because the other players copied everything else off them apart from that because it is a shit idea. We’re discussing ep 11 here today because we watched it together as a one off drop. The conversation otherwise died.

Definitely. It’s the aspect of everyone watching at different speeds as much as anything.

I very rarely binge-watch new “dump” shows (Sandman was an exception as I was stuck indoors all weekend so thought I might as well watch something) and as a result for any “dump” shows I almost immediately feel behind the conversation because there will be someone who’s somehow watched all 12 episodes within seven minutes of the show coming out.

So even when I’m actively watching I feel like the conversation has moved on.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Ben, Uncle Retrospective

Smart episode and pairing, plus skilful execution of both.

As to dump versus week-by-week, Disney’s done an interesting variation on that with occassional double premieres.

Where it can work well is if the material is written with the release in mind.  Thus Kenobi had a two-part opening and it was written that way.  The following eps were far more set as weekly drops.  A weekly Sandman should have been written differently.

An irregular schedule and episodes per series could really suit Sandman in a way I’m not sure would be true of others.

One thing I find it funny to observe is, for weekly material, is when I see people going  “but ep 1 did this and that conflicts with ep 3”, with ep 1 being four weeks earlier and I don’t have that level of memory.  Would I want to? Starting to see it as more bane than boon to be honest.

This extra episode was a nice surprise. But was there a reason it was one episode instead of two?

The part with Calliope and Madoc was weirdly non-sexual. I think it was too easy to miss what he actually did to her. I even found a quote about it:

I mean, I think they’re screwing, but it was written back in the dawn of time, so they do it in rows of asterisks, or between chapters.
-Rose Walker, to a lady on a plane in Sandman #66, about a book she’s reading. The book being “Here Comes a Candle” by Erasmus Fry!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective

Tobias Radesäter wrote:

The part with Calliope and Madoc was weirdly non-sexual. I think it was too easy to miss what he actually did to her.

I don’t know, I think Fry made it pretty clear with the comments about taking her gifts by force.

If I had to guess I’d suggest they probably avoided showing anything explicitly so as to avoid any possibility of making it seem titillating or exploitative.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective

https://variety.com/2022/tv/features/sandman-bonus-episode-dream-son-season-2-1235345646/

This article goes into the background of the extra episode. It was planned all along to have a ‘secret episode’ and the plan was originally to drop it between seasons. They don’t fully explain why they moved it up, it could well have been the accidentally dropped footage that got onto Youtube, it could be they want the buzz now to get the numbers that make Netflix renew.

It also has the director of Calliope explain the changes in tone (the plot is still pretty much exactly the same). I think they came from a good place of giving Calliope more agency but I think it backfired for me in minimising her suffering and by extension Madoc’s downfall.

 

https://www.avclub.com/the-sandman-might-not-get-a-second-season-on-netflix-1849439520

Doesn’t sound hugely hopeful.

That would be very stupid but very Netflix I suppose.

Who are they recruiting for these decisions, ex Square Enix execs?

“The Sandman performed below expectations.”

[Dave]

We have to remember that WB are heavily involved here too. So it may well be out of Netflix’ hands to some extent.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by Dave.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Todd

I think it helps services (linear, pay cable, and streaming) to have a marquis show or two in their lineup. A show that costs more than most but will draw people to your service due to its overall quality and once there, have some other compelling programming that keeps you on board. Sandman could be that prestige show for Netflix.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Ben

I wouldn’t read too much into that article, it’s fair chunk of speculation based on Gaiman’s tweet the other day which needs some context.

He was replying to a fan saying another season should be guaranteed because it was showing at number 1 on Netflix and I think he was just answering honestly that isn’t quite how it works. My bit of speculation based on what he’s said is he has no clue, we’ll know in a week or so when Netflix crunch the numbers. I’m basing that assumption on a Pilot TV interview with the OA showrunners who said Netflix never fed them any data or targets, they just called and said no renewal. To answer Ben’s question on who makes the decision, it seems to be an algorithm rather than an exec.

If it doesn’t get a second series it will be cost that’s the issue, the one stat Netflix do give out – hours watched – have it performing better than The Umbrella Academy which has just been renewed.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Chris D, Ben, Christian

Thanks for the heads up on eps 7-10. 6 was great. Being an Infinity Inc fan, I was very happy to see Lyta and Hector Hall. They even played nice with Black Adam by making Hector dark skinned like his father Carter.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Ben

garjones wrote:

To answer Ben’s question on who makes the decision, it seems to be an algorithm rather than an exec.

I suspect it’s a little more complicated when it’s a WB co-production though. There will be a certain amount of internal politics to navigate there.

I finished watching it last night. And I’m not particularly a fan of the Sandman comic. I like a lot of Gaiman’s writing but an equal amount turns me off – like his run on Miracleman did a lot of similar things in terms of having a bunch of seemingly unrelated stories tie together with the characters’ lives being touched by the nominal protagonist, but it worked better for me there. Presumably because that arc in Miracleman is only 6 issues in total.

Anyway, the show did very little to improve my opinion of Sandman, but it was enjoyable enough. Definitely agree that the first half was better than the back, but the only episode I unreservedly enjoyed was The Sound of Her Wings. The show looked great, most of the performances were great, it was very impressive how many major British actors showed up for a couple of scenes.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Chris-S

[Christian]

Chris-S wrote:

im glad they have stuck to the source material for the most parts It takes real arrogance to veer from great source material when adapting to live action. We’ve seen dozens of shows fail due to that sort of hubris. And perhaps this is where the latter half starts to go wrong because there’s a bit of deviation from the story and it’s not for the betterment of the show.

Personally, I felt like it was the other way round. They really still stuck very close to the book, and I think the show could’ve profited from deviating some more. My main problem with the Doll’s House storyline was that everything happens too quickly. You’ve hardly been introduced to the characters and you’re already in the middle of their plot. Those early Sandman issues were really very compressed storytelling, with a whole lot of development in just 24 pages. In a TV series, you need to let the characters breathe a little more, give them more small moments and let them do things that aren’t essential to the plot. And also, take the time to build tension! All of the stuff with the serial killers happens so quickly, there isn’t even time to be scared of what Fun Land is going to do.

The biggest changes were, I think, Hector And Lyta Hall not being the Silver Age Sandman, but I suppose where that decision was concerned, they were limited by cost as well as not wanting to explain too much DC lore. Hector and Lyta worked quite well the way they did it though, I thought.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by Christian.

‘The Sandman’ Movie Was Sabotaged By…Wait For It…Neil Gaiman, Author Of The Original Comic Book Series

Neil Gaiman has a confession. He played a big part in killing a movie adaptation of his classic graphic novel series, The Sandman.

In a Rolling Stone interview, Gaiman said he leaked a script to the media of what he thought was a poor effort to bring The Sandman to film.

“I sent the script to Ain’t It Cool News, which back then was read by people,” Gaiman said. “And I thought, ‘I wonder what Ain’t It Cool News will think of the script that they’re going to receive anonymously. And they wrote a fabulous article about how it was the worst script they’d ever been sent. And suddenly, the prospect of that film happening went away.”

Jon Peters was working on the script.

“It was the worst script that I’ve ever read by anybody,” said Gaiman. “A guy in Jon Peters’ office phoned me up and he said, ‘So Neil, have you had a chance to read the script we sent you?’ And I said, ‘Well, yes. Yes, I did. I haven’t read all of it, but I’ve read enough.’ He says, ‘So, pretty good. Huh?’ And I said, ‘Well, no. It really isn’t.’ He said, ‘Oh, come on. There must have been stuff in there you loved.’ I said, ‘There was nothing in there I loved. There was nothing in there I liked. It was the worst script that I’ve ever read by anybody. It’s not just the worst ‘Sandman’ script. That was the worst script I’ve ever been sent.’”

Several other versions of The Sandman died before production. The rights were then sold to Netflix, which debuted it online earlier this month.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective, lorcan_nagle

I really want to know how Jon Peters worked a giant spider into Sandman.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Bruce, Uncle Retrospective, Todd

Todd wrote:

“I sent the script to Ain’t It Cool News, which back then was read by people,”

Solid burn.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Sean Robinson, Uncle Retrospective, Todd

lorcan_nagle wrote:

I really want to know how Jon Peters worked a giant spider into Sandman.

Morpheus was going to be a giant spider.

2 users thanked author for this post.

lorcan_nagle

I didn’t finish this, it just feels like a less impressive version of the comic book. Why watch the show when I can read the original?

2 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S, Uncle Retrospective

Why adapt anything for another medium?

3 users thanked author for this post.

Todd, lorcan_nagle

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

I didn’t finish this, it just feels like a less impressive version of the comic book. Why watch the show when I can read the original?

It’s a somewhat existential question. A very large amount if what we consume is adaptation. Apart from cutting out Tom Bombadill and adding in a bit more time for a female elf the Lord of the Rings films are much the same as the books and won many Oscars. The film that sold the most tickets in history is a faithful adaptation of a book.

I think when you cross mediums their strengths and weaknesses can show. Without the human element I find it very rare indeed I either laugh out loud or cry at written material. Something like ‘The Sound of her Wings’ pulls back from the comic, Gaiman mentioned they deliberately cut before the mother of the baby came back and I can see why as on paper that adds something and on screen it is too much.

As such I think some aspects improve, even though they narratively lower the risk the tension of the Dee and Rosemary scenes are more impactful, as Dave has said sometimes the visual elements, Sam Keith and Kelley Jones in particular are very creative and non realistic artists, and that maybe suffers in translation.

5 users thanked author for this post.

Todd, Dave, Ben, lorcan_nagle

Ben wrote:

Why adapt anything for another medium?

If the answer wasn’t so very obviously MONEY in 99% of the cases, this’d be a legit question.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Ben wrote:

Why adapt anything for another medium?

If the answer wasn’t so very obviously MONEY in 99% of the cases, this’d be a legit question.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Todd, Uncle Retrospective

How Paul Dini Pitched a Sandman Appearance on Batman: The Animated Series

2 users thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective, Todd

garjones wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

I didn’t finish this, it just feels like a less impressive version of the comic book. Why watch the show when I can read the original?

It’s a somewhat existential question. A very large amount if what we consume is adaptation. Apart from cutting out Tom Bombadill and adding in a bit more time for a female elf the Lord of the Rings films are much the same as the books and won many Oscars. The film that sold the most tickets in history is a faithful adaptation of a book.

I think when you cross mediums their strengths and weaknesses can show. Without the human element I find it very rare indeed I either laugh out loud or cry at written material. Something like ‘The Sound of her Wings’ pulls back from the comic, Gaiman mentioned they deliberately cut before the mother of the baby came back and I can see why as on paper that adds something and on screen it is too much.

As such I think some aspects improve, even though they narratively lower the risk the tension of the Dee and Rosemary scenes are more impactful, as Dave has said sometimes the visual elements, Sam Keith and Kelley Jones in particular are very creative and non realistic artists, and that maybe suffers in translation.

I think LOTR works so well because it’s such a visual book. There’s something great about the recreation of that work in film, seeing the Balrog, Minas Tirith etc. It really brought Middle Earth to life.

 

In the Sandman tv series I think the visual aspect is underwhelming ( in the episodes I watched anyway)  compared to the art in the book. I really love those Mike Dringenberg issues, but I think not everybody is a fan.

I don’t want to argue people who like it are wrong or anything…if people like it, that’s great. Personally it is just not for me.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

In the Sandman tv series I think the visual aspect is underwhelming ( in the episodes I watched anyway)  compared to the art in the book. I really love those Mike Dringenberg issues, but I think not everybody is a fan.

Yup, I’m not… one of the things that made me never read Sandman is I always thought the art was garbage (haven’t re-checked it as an adult to see if I can stand it more, tbf), so I’m obviously happier with how the show looks.

The truth is that Sandman as a whole has such a wide variety of artists that you can’t really make sweeping statements about the quality of the art. Some of it is very good, some less so, and as ever with art a lot of it is subjective and down to personal taste.

I do think though that those very early issues are in a certain style that many readers may not immediately warm to (although I quite like it). There was a quite deliberate attempt to vary the art style after that.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Chris-S, Ben

If I’m honest I think Sandman is a writer’s book over an artists one. They had issues from the start that Keith is great but never felt a good fit for the book so left, Dringenberg is a lot more conventional but didn’t really last long in the industry.

Some individual issues are exceptional with very high calibre artists like Charles Vess but a lot, especially in the middle, I could take or leave really.

Which makes things a bit varied for the TV show too. It’s hard to adapt something like Kelly Jones’ art with the same flair but he only does a handful of issues. I think in places like the rendition of the Dreaming they have done it is more imaginative than the comics were.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Ben

The attraction for me of this adaptation is both how it is rendered for TV, but also how Gaiman changes his story 30 years later.

Which is in part how the Calliope changes happened.  In some ways the comics were ahead of the curve 30 years, in other ways they were of the time too.  Nor is Gaiman the same writer now he was then, so adusting to the present era makes sense.

This isn’t limited to Sandman either.  If you look at Preacher, the comics’ version of Jesse would certainly be deemed homophobic today, so that part didn’t make the jump to TV for obvious reasons.

garjones wrote:

It’s hard to adapt something like Kelly Jones’ art with the same flair but he only does a handful of issues.

Oh man, a full run with Kelly Jones… that would’ve been a different story… but I guess he was too busy making more money on Batman =P

Also, yeah, the art in Sandman was a hard sell, specially for people who were into the more mainstream titles of that time… Hence why I only really checked out The High Cost of Living… can’t go wrong with Bachalo’s art.

The more recent Sandman Overture series with JHW3 is beautiful looking if you want a Sandman story with top-tier art.

3 users thanked author for this post.

garjones, Chris D, Ben

Endless Nights  is another good one, mainly standalone stories with an incredible list of artists. P Craig Russell, Dave McKean, Bill Sienkiewicz, Milo Manara, Frank Quitely etc.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Ben, Dave

Yes that’s another great one. Some amazing artists in there and (from memory) I think it’s all pretty accessible.

1 user thanked author for this post.

At the same time, the different artists allowed the different storylines to all have their own distinctive feel to them. Kelley Jones’ horror style for Calliope and Seasons of Mist, Shawn MacManus bright, somewhat cartoonish, style for the absurd fantasy world of A Game of You, Jill Thompson’s more grounded, whimsical style for the family story of Brief Lives… I think the changing artists added more to the overall story than it took away.

It was interesting to see something like the switch in artists with the TV adaptation of Dream of a Thousand Cats. Kinda made me wish they’d tried to find some kind of visual equivalent of it, like different colour palettes or a distinctive editing style for each story. But that would probably have overcomplicated things.

I liked the bonus episode a lot. This might also be a good entrance point for people who don’t care for the kind of setting you have with the first episodes…

Dave wrote:

I don’t know, I think Fry made it pretty clear with the comments about taking her gifts by force.

If I had to guess I’d suggest they probably avoided showing anything explicitly so as to avoid any possibility of making it seem titillating or exploitative.

Yeah, I also thought it was very clear – not just that comment, but also the way that moment was shown: Maddoc knocking on the door, and then sitting behind the computer dishevelled, with a cut on his cheek. I mean, what else are we supposed to think was going on?

I’m a bit ambivalent about the way it was shown. Yes, the brutality of the depiction (IIRC, the sentence was something like “he raped her on the bed that first night” and Calliope in her room is shown mostly naked most of the time) in the book makes Calliope’s suffering much more clear, but I do think it would’ve been too exploitative for a TV show. There could’ve been a middle way though, which would probably have been better. But I felt that way about some other stuff, too – like the way Jed was kept by his foster parents. That was also more violent and horrible in the comics. And I also don’t know about turning Brute and Glob into Gault – that also felt less horrific, as Jed had someone who genuinely cared about him. I can also see what they were doing there – Brute and Glob were very simple villains, and Gault incorporated the themes of change and transformation that will be important for Morpheus later on. But still, I think overall they’ve been pulling too many punches when it comes to the darker aspects of the book.
(Removing Morpheus gift of “eternal awakening” was another one, and letting the woman in the car live.)

2 users thanked author for this post.

Uncle Retrospective, Dave

Christian wrote:

But still, I think overall they’ve been pulling too many punches when it comes to the darker aspects of the book.

They have pulled a lot of punches (albeit on the sexual violence stuff that’s always a tricky area). Someone posted an article online about how the early proto-Vertigo series were nearly all sold on a horror theme. Basically the formula was Swamp Thing was a horror comic with a relatively obscure DC character reinvented by a clever British writer, let’s bring in some more clever British writers to do the same formula with other obscure DC characters. The original Sandman house ads had ‘welcome to a world of nightmares’ type heading and of course many of the characters used to host DC’s horror anthologies.

That fell away relatively quickly and the books shifted more into fantasy with Sandman or absurdity with Doom Patrol or psychedelia with Shade. He surmised that the toning down of the horror elements in the earlier stories was a move to make the final work on TV more even in tone.

Gaiman quote retweeted the article with words to the effect that the author may as well have been in their writers room.  Pretty much confirming that was the intention.

I must admit though I think sometimes I like it, I prefer the Rosemary story in the TV version. There is tension in the comic version that we don’t know which way Dee will go because he is an unhinged monster but Rosemary being the good Samaritan who helps what seems like just a confused and down on his luck guy, sees how dark he is as he confesses his murders. It’s better storytelling as much as I love the original.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Christian

Can’t see how the diner episode ain’t better than the comicbook as well, because that episode was REALLY good.