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Talk politics here.

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  • #84327

    So apparently there is a reason this “ambushed by a cake” defense makes sense to the people who came up with it…

    Image

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  • #84330

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  • #84332

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  • #84359

    Donald Trump should not lead the country again, says the Republican leader of the National Governors Association

    Trump’s probably cursing the fact that Twitter permanently banned him.

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  • #84364

    If Trump’s not running then I think DeSantis has got a big chance of winning the nomination. He’s not much better than Trump. Although he seems a bit more sane, he might not try to do a coup to stay in power like Trump did. I’m not sure. However he supported Trump’s efforts to change the election results.

  • #84375

    DeSantis could be worse than Trump because he’s not nearly the incompetent egotistic fool that Trump is. I fully believe he would attempt a coup, but he could actually succeed. Dude’s definitely a wannabe authoritarian. Just like a whole lot of the GOP nowadays.

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  • #84484

    A version of the Gray report is out and a fat bastard is spinning so fast he looks like a blur to get himself out of deep shit.

    Problem is, even with all the restraints on it, the picture the report paints is that 10 Downing Street has less discipline around booze than first year university students during freshers week.

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  • #84495

    It’s a shitshow and the performance today in parliament is pretty desperate.

    Thankfully it looks like there are quite a few tories who are sick of it now too.

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  • #84607

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  • #84741

    Our local right wing nutbag Baudet is now calling 9/11 a false flag. A while back he also had some questionable comments about WW2 and wrote the Holocaust between quotation marks on his twitter. He has gone from being an anti-Islam, pro-Israel right winger (like Wilders) to changing his tune about Islam and the terror threat and flirting with anti-semitism.

     

    He’s also talked about “atlanticism”, and I think he had a point there. The US trying to divide and rule Europe, driving a wedge between Russia and Western Europe so that the US keeps a decisive influence. Brzezinski admitted this was a tactic the US employed. However it is also revealed Baudet had ties with Russia so he’s not really impartial.

  • #84744

    Looks like Johnson has upped his game and is now deploying a Dead Lion strategy.

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  • #84779

    There is an exterminator who sprays our offices about once a month. He used to be a business partner to former Republican Representative Tom Delay. He is die hard Republican. We get along and will tease each other about the other’s politics.

    He was by yesterday and made a comment about finding Biden a retirement home. I said Trump needs to go to one as well. He tried to say how bad a job Biden is doing. My response was at least he didn’t try to steal an election. I then said, “You know Trump is a traitor, right?”

    He paused for a moment. A long moment. He then looked at me and said with a very pained smile, “He’s my man. I can’t say anything bad about him.” He then walked away.

    That got him. He knows exactly who Trump is. This exterminator is a veteran and fought against tyranny. He is proud of his service. The pain he tried to hide was real. He knows he has sold his soul to Trump but for whatever reason, he won’t let him go.

    I relay this information as just a snapshot of a Trump supporter.

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  • #84800

    There is an exterminator who sprays our offices about once a month. He used to be a business partner to former Republican Representative Tom Delay. He is die hard Republican. We get along and will tease each other about the other’s politics.

    He was by yesterday and made a comment about finding Biden a retirement home. I said Trump needs to go to one as well. He tried to say how bad a job Biden is doing. My response was at least he didn’t try to steal an election. I then said, “You know Trump is a traitor, right?”

    He paused for a moment. A long moment. He then looked at me and said with a very pained smile, “He’s my man. I can’t say anything bad about him.” He then walked away.

    That got him. He knows exactly who Trump is. This exterminator is a veteran and fought against tyranny. He is proud of his service. The pain he tried to hide was real. He knows he has sold his soul to Trump but for whatever reason, he won’t let him go.

    I relay this information as just a snapshot of a Trump supporter.

    Good on you for seeing the humanity in him and not shutting him out.

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  • #84820

    There is an exterminator who sprays our offices about once a month. He used to be a business partner to former Republican Representative Tom Delay. He is die hard Republican. We get along and will tease each other about the other’s politics.

    He was by yesterday and made a comment about finding Biden a retirement home. I said Trump needs to go to one as well. He tried to say how bad a job Biden is doing. My response was at least he didn’t try to steal an election. I then said, “You know Trump is a traitor, right?”

    He paused for a moment. A long moment. He then looked at me and said with a very pained smile, “He’s my man. I can’t say anything bad about him.” He then walked away.

    That got him. He knows exactly who Trump is. This exterminator is a veteran and fought against tyranny. He is proud of his service. The pain he tried to hide was real. He knows he has sold his soul to Trump but for whatever reason, he won’t let him go.

    I relay this information as just a snapshot of a Trump supporter.

    Good on you for seeing the humanity in him and not shutting him out.

    We have had some talks and there are things we do agree on. He goes to prisons and ministers to the inmates. He’s been doing that for many years.

    I think he is a good person but he’s a white Southern Baby Boomer. I think he has always been in a conservative bubble and going outside of it was discouraged early on. Because of that, he has put himself in a position that he feels obligated to back Trump despite knowing deep down, he’s a horrible person that goes against his own beliefs.

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  • #84822

    RNC votes to censure Cheney, Kinzinger for investigating Capitol riot

    How dare they not drink the Kool-Aid?

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  • #84827

    Declaring the Jan 6 riot “Legitimate Political Discourse” is some third reich shit. Actual literal fascists, the GOP.

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  • #84833

    Legitimate: in accordance with recognized or accepted standards or principles
    Political: involving or characteristic of politics or parties or politicians
    Discourse: formal and orderly and usually extended expression of thought on a subject

    Yeah, if the RNC declares that the January 6 assaults are “legitimate political discourse”, the RNC is a bunch of fucked up neo-Nazis.

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  • #84840

    War is politics with violence.

    Politics is war without violence.

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  • #84848

    Yeah, the GOP is definitely just the fascism party now. Not even trying to hide it. They’re part of a cult led by one of the most obnoxious, insufferable, least charismatic people I’ve ever seen and they just keep going deeper down the rabbit hole.

    And the most unbelievable part? The Dems are so inept that they’re actually going to lose to the party of fascism.

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  • #84849

    War is politics with violence. Politics is war without violence.

    That is the classic point of view but I’m starting to wonder if there really is a connection between war and politics. War itself is almost like the weather – that it just happens when certain social conditions are met irrespective of the political aims of the people involved.

    Honestly, war is utterly senseless and should not even be possible, but I doubt there has been a year without some military action in the world not just in our lifetimes, but since the beginning of human civilization. War may just be the natural consequence of civilization in that sense as the necessary organization and surpluses provided by civilized life also enables warfare and provides the motivations for conflict.

    However, individually, no one would reasonably want to go to war. It really takes a lot to condition people to actually fight each other and even then, the soldier on our side knows that they have more in common with the “enemy” soldiers shooting at them across the battlefield than they do with the politicians, generals and corporate boards of directors that sent them to war and sold them the weapons to fight it. A lot of times, I think soldiers kill the enemy when they really want to kill the people who got them into this mess.

    In the end though, in the modern era, war is a business (or a “racket” as Smedley Butler wrote just after WW1). The Cold War was a major stimulant for our economies even though it wasn’t that cold really if you look at places from Korea to Nicaragua. It’s essentially a money-making project and it worked so well we started the drug war to basically enrich various police agencies with public funds (and no provable impact on drug abuse) and then the War on Terror to again make violence profitable (again with no demonstrable effect on terrorism while a very demonstrable effect on military action and profits in a destabilized Middle East).

    Currently, our State Dept. – essentially our Diplomatic Corps. – is heavily influenced or outmatched by the influence of the military and the many powerful and wealthy people that support military production and mobilization. These are people who will say “war is a last resort” but that’s simply because, for them, it is the only option. For them war is not politics, it is a business and politics is just the sales pitch to get people into the market.

     

  • #84854

    However, individually, no one would reasonably want to go to war. It really takes a lot to condition people to actually fight each other and even then, the soldier on our side knows that they have more in common with the soldiers shooting at them across the battlefield than they do with the politicians, generals and corporate boards of directors that sent them to war and sold them the weapons to fight it.

    There is research that shows in wars with conscripts like WW2 most soldiers refused to shoot. They just resisted killing.

     

    edit: This changed later, like in Vietnam with training that brainwashed soldiers into being killing machines.

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  • #84856

    There is research that shows in wars with conscripts like WW2 most soldiers refused to shoot. They just resisted killing.

    Supposedly, that was the reason for the design of Ranger and Special Forces training, though, as you’d see in movies like FULL METAL JACKET, basic training was pretty rough even before that. However, it could be apocryphal, but I have heard and read that the military invested a lot in psychological conditioning so that they could rely on their soldiers actually shooting to kill as well as working harder to control media coverage of wars after Vietnam reporting essentially scared the hell out of people watching the nightly news.

    Also, with a lot of modern military technology, murder is often reduced to operating a set of controls a long distance away from the target with a number of command controls and rules of engagement that reduces the personal accountability of the operator.

    Even then, the Army, illegally, won’t report on civilian casualties.

    Just looking at the results of most wars, we didn’t really gain much politically from Korea, Vietnam, Grenada was a joke, and Afghanistan and Iraq, Libya and Syria just left us with a mess. The political strategy is not winning us anything, but the business model is profiting a lot of people supporting the war efforts.

    However, “Go kill and possibly die for our investors” is not a great slogan as “your country needs you!”

  • #84858

    Also, with a lot of modern military technology, murder is often reduced to operating a set of controls a long distance away from the target with a number of command controls and rules of engagement that reduces the personal accountability of the operator.

    Yeah not seeing the enemy’s face makes killing easier.

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  • #84861

    Yeah not seeing the enemy’s face makes killing easier.

    Ironically, though, with drone technology, a lot of operators see more of the enemy for longer than the average infantry soldier.

    The Warfare May Be Remote But The Trauma Is Real

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  • #84949

    Of course war is almost always immoral, but I read someone saying somewhere how immoral the idea of conscription is. Basically it’s a form of slavery. You force someone to endanger his or her life, force them to take lives, go through the worst deprivations…it’s incredible we did this. I never really realized this. When I was 18 conscription here had just been abolished here.

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  • #84969

    And in other “Republicans not drinking Trump’s Kool-Aid” news:

    Republicans back Pence rebuke of Trump on overturning 2020 election

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  • #85114

    Let’s see how many people who profess to hate Cancel Culture are cool with this:

    Trump tells supporters to boycott DirecTV if it follows through on plans to drop One America News Network

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  • #85119

    Al Jazeera News was a very good channel that covered global news with a fair hand, but unfortunately it didn’t survive long in the US due to being ignorantly associated with radical extremists who want to destroy American democratic values.

    Ironically, OAN is also associated with radical extremists who want to destroy American democratic values.

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  • #85120

    Al Jazeera News was a very good channel that covered global news with a fair hand, but unfortunately it didn’t survive long in the US due to being ignorantly associated with radical extremists who want to destroy American democratic values.

    Ironically, OAN is also associated with radical extremists who want to destroy American democratic values.

    I can’t qwhite figure out what the difference is.

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  • #85121

    Thankfully, Al Jazeera has survived in the UK. It’s quite nice to get a detached, less UK-centric perspective on things. The Listening Post, which focuses on stories about the media, is particularly good.

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  • #85126

    Al Jazeera is very good overall but their Arabic language channel does promote extremism sometimes. They had a show featuring Yusuf Al-Qaradawi who is a raging anti-semite, he thought Hitler was sent by God to put Jews in their place.

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  • #85129

    Yes there is a difference between the Arabic and English stations.

    The English channel actually has a bunch of ex BBC news staff on it and at least half the content is broadcast out of London.

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  • #85331

    The English channel actually has a bunch of ex BBC news staff on it and at least half the content is broadcast out of London.

    I do wonder what the English news staff thinks of the Arabic reports. I believe Al Jazeera has some roots with the BBC or at least emerged when the BBC stopped broadcasting in Arabic. Though it can be criticized by the West for providing media access to what we see as extremists, it also gets a lot of heat from Muslim leaders and governments in the Middle East for being too balanced as well.

  • #85333

    Of course war is almost always immoral, but I read someone saying somewhere how immoral the idea of conscription is. Basically it’s a form of slavery. You force someone to endanger his or her life, force them to take lives, go through the worst deprivations…it’s incredible we did this. I never really realized this. When I was 18 conscription here had just been abolished here.

    The interesting part of that was that conscription ended because it was no longer needed. The Military just started getting better at marketing and right after Vietnam, it’s never really had a hard time attracting kids to join, though now really the average age is higher – not just young people right out of high school.

    The experience though is the same. A volunteer recruit’s experience is the same as a conscript’s. They are essentially slave labor for a determined period of time (2-4 years) that can be extended depending on military interests (stop-loss, for example).

    Also, this is a lesson in general, few organizations succeed when they take a lot of inexperienced kids as the front line of their operations and as the military has become much more technological, they’ve been looking to attract people that already have high aptitude and/or skills. The Army is not Taco Bell or Starbucks – they can’t rely on a bunch of workers with no experience.

  • #85339

    Though it can be criticized by the West for providing media access to what we see as extremists, it also gets a lot of heat from Muslim leaders and governments in the Middle East for being too balanced as well.

    Yeah it’s interesting, I don’t think it anywhere near the terrorist promoting outlet that it’s often painted to be but as Arjan says it does give airings to views the western media would not.

    I got the Arabic channel in my cable package here and sometime maybe around 2005 there was a story that a new Bin Laden message had been released. CNN was wall to wall coverage of it and what it may contain. As usual the tape had been delivered to Al Jazeera – I switched over briefly to see what they were saying about it and they’d moved on and were doing a story about the Indian cricket team.

    I think many imagine it’s an Al Qaeda news channel with extremists frothing at the mouth all day but it is a lot more mundane and conventional than that.

     

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  • #85342

    The English channel actually has a bunch of ex BBC news staff on it

    David Walliams is ill following charity Thames swim | the juice – Yahoo!  omg! UK | My Tiny Thoughts

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  • #85345

    Not to be confused with the various former and current BBC News journalists that should get in the sea, of course.

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  • #85413

    Really?

  • #85433

    When Stochastic terrorism isn’t enough

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  • #85677

    From AOC:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2022/feb/15/aoc-interview-democracy-joe-biden-covid-us-politics-latest-updates

    I have to say she has a point and isn’t wrong imho.

    The former POTUS loved Putin and the way the North Koreans saluted the leader. He wants to emulate them.

    Putin came into office, slowly changed things to his favor and never left after all these years.

    I get the feeling after looking at the overall plan to seize key swing voting states and suppressing minority votes, counting only their votes… If you know who comes back, do you think he will allow a chance to be voted out again? It may mean permanent power for the GOP.

    Then again, was the US ever a real legitimate democracy? That is debatable.

    I hear people being optimistic believing in the people and that true democratic values will still prevail. But they still have to take action against this sneaky coup, and the filibuster just prevented the Voting Act. Sigh…

    • This reply was modified 3 years ago by Al-x.
  • #85729

    Then again, was the US ever a real legitimate democracy? That is debatable.

    If people in a democracy vote for leaders who take away their democratic rights, then that’s an example of democracy working perfectly. Voting to limit your voting rights is entirely legitimate.

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  • #85770

    Voting to limit your voting rights is entirely legitimate.

    but it is not your limits that are being affected by these laws.

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  • #85795

    Well, voting to limit somebody else’s voting rights is entirely legitimate too. I mean, it’s not morally right, but if the majority vote for it then that’s an entirely valid example of democracy in action and you can’t really complain that democracy isn’t working.

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  • #85813

    Yeah that’s the big paradox of democracy. Democracy can cancel itself.

     

    In the end what it comes down to I think is you got to have a population that wants to live together. If people are too divided democracy cannot sustain itself. You have to have a basic level of respect for others in your country and a shared understanding of the laws and culture.

  • #85822

    There should be a distinction here. Too much emphasis is placed on democracy when it is simply a procedural approach to decision making. Democracy is NOT a synonym for liberty or freedom. Democratic approaches to government in our case applies primarily to elections – though honestly it is voting with dollars that decides who can stand for election, and then there is one step removed toward governing as the the representatives that we vote for then use democratic procedures to enact rules.

    The rights you have or freedoms you enjoy were not granted by a vote but are considered outside government action. That’s why the “bill of rights” is all about what the government cannot do. The rights existed before the constitution was written and are assumed to remain in perpetuity. So even if a democratic American government voted to limit any of those rights, it would not be valid, and at the heart of it, it would invite violent revolution as it did in the foundation of the government.

    However the one thing in this case is that since voting is a procedural element of government, the government does get to set the rules so one could vote to limit voting access or voting rights democratically. However, that doesn’t give the government any legitimacy to limit civil rights. It cannot touch those and if it tries, it loses legitimacy. It’s legitimacy is not in our democracy but in the protection of our freedoms and the rights outside government influence.

    In practice though, most people don’t really care about their freedoms in any existential sense and democracy is more about fostering consent. Not so much “you voted for it” but “you had the chance to vote” though none of us really vote on the actual actions of our government. Most of us don’t want to be completely free, but we don’t want to be oppressed or uncomfortable. There are innumerable restrictions on freedom even for the wealthiest people in our society but the oppression on certain groups down the economic levels is insupportable and no amount of democratic voting will alleviate that.

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  • #85828

    Say:

    What AOC said could very well happen. This is not an intellectual exercise.

    The US really could be headed for it if the GOP pull it off.

    And with the Voting Acts thing held off…

    I guess some of you won’t realize it until it actually happens and then you go “Holy sh*t!”

  • #85831

    Well, voting to limit somebody else’s voting rights is entirely legitimate too. I mean, it’s not morally right, but if the majority vote for it then that’s an entirely valid example of democracy in action and you can’t really complain that democracy isn’t working.

    But we have a problem here where the majority isn’t voting for these things. Gerrymandering has allowed the minority to take a larger share in state and congressional races than is actually representative of the voting population. Add to that that the Senate is also skewed to give smaller states a disproportionate voice in congress and that the electoral college does the same thing, along with the nonsense that is the Supreme Court, the filibuster and things like Citizens United, and the US is in a position where there is basically tyranny of the minority right now. Despite Dems having won 7 of the last 8 popular votes for president, they’ve only won the election 5 times and somehow the Supreme Court is 6-3 in conservative favor because the system allowed the GOP Senate to hijack seats even though they represent states where the population is 40 million smaller than the population of the states democrats represent.

    Don’t get me wrong, a lot of voters have been conditioned to vote against their self interest for one reason or another. They make dumb choices. It’s just not really accurate to say the majority of Americans are voting for these things.

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  • #85832

    Not disagreeing with you, but gerrymandering was put in place by elected officials. Somewhere down the line, people voted in favour of gerrymandering. (Or more likely, didn’t explicitly consider gerrymandering, but still by choice voted for the kind of assholes who would do it, which still makes the voters culpable.)

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  • #85850

    but still by choice voted for the kind of assholes who would do it, which still makes the voters culpable

    I don’t think that makes the voters culpable. Politicians may promise everything that’s good and holy and then turn around and do awful things.

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  • #85887

    but still by choice voted for the kind of assholes who would do it, which still makes the voters culpable

    I don’t think that makes the voters culpable. Politicians may promise everything that’s good and holy and then turn around and do awful things.

    But in the real world, how often does a politician make an about-face after election that genuinely surprises people?

    Brexit is obviously a nightmare of mammoth proportions. “But… but… Boris promised it would be sunlit uplands!” Yes, and if you do even 5 minutes’ research into his past you will notice that Johnson lies about everything and only cares about one thing: himself.

    Poor areas of the UK are forecast to get even poorer over the coming years. “But… but… Boris promised he would level up the country and help us all if we voted for him!” Yes, see answer above, and also when has any Conservative government helped your part of the country, like, ever? You cannot be surprised by this, UK, voters, you could have predicted awful things would happen.

    It’s not difficult to look at history and work out which politicians are likely to do awful things. And we still vote for them.

    • This reply was modified 3 years ago by DavidM.
  • #85897

    Sure but just saying voters are responsible for every political actions, goes too far. For instance you would have to say Labor voters are responsible for the UK going to war in Iraq.

  • #85901

    True. I think that one really did surprise everyone (including half the Labour Party).

  • #85909

    One thing about the US is that pretty much all emphasis is put on federal elections while state and local elections get largely overlooked. It’s a huge problem because that’s actually where things like gerrymandering actually take place. And the lack of focus on these elections is the fault of multiple areas. The media, for one, rarely gives much time to them nor do they explain the importance of them and schools do a piss poor job of really educating on the importance of elections on all levels. I went to a highly rated public high school and we did have to take a government class senior year. A perfect time for such a class. But the focus really should have been on the impact state, local and federal officials have on shaping policy and elections. I don’t remember hearing about gerrymandering or the importance of the census once, for example. And it shouldn’t be that way. The first place I got any marginally in depth introduction to gerrymandering was on the freaking Daily Show…

    So while I certainly agree voters hold some level of culpability, we do have at least one party that’s spent decades undermining trust in government and elections to instill a sense of apathy, while working to dismantle education, leaving voters to fend for themselves, and gerrymandering the shit out of districts to make it harder to vote them out. It’s just a huge mess.

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  • #85948

    A human rights organisation in the Netherlands did a freedom of information request directed at universities here to disclose connections with pro-Israel organizations. This set off a bit of a political shitstorm. One parliamentarian called the whole thing antisemitic and called on universities to refuse, which made right winger Thierry Baudet accuse this parliamentarian of being more loyal to Israel than the Netherlands.

     

     

  • #85977

    Where are all the concerned Americans chanting “Lock him up!”?

    National Archives confirms Trump took classified documents when he left White House

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  • #85979

    Putin must have really good kompromat on Glenn Greenwald.

  • #85983

    Not disagreeing with you, but gerrymandering was put in place by elected officials. Somewhere down the line, people voted in favour of gerrymandering. (Or more likely, didn’t explicitly consider gerrymandering, but still by choice voted for the kind of assholes who would do it, which still makes the voters culpable.)

    Honestly, though, unfair voting is more the norm historically rather than a new innovation. After reconstruction, the Democrats in the South immediately put in place voting restrictions that made it impossible for poor and black people to vote or made their votes irrelevant. Naturally, even before the Civil War, vote rigging was common and a lot of the problem in the US South was that plantation owners controlled the votes of their slaves as well so Planters had much more political influence than southerners who did not own slaves.

    The fight against gerrymandering is more recent as consolidation of party power over politics is a natural inclination from the beginning of democratic governments. Every party will try and often just will get away with it while at the same time criticizing opponents when they do the same in other parts of the country. It’s so much a part of the political background that it might well be the will of the people.

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  • #85984

    A human rights organization in the Netherlands did a freedom of information request directed at universities here to disclose connections with pro-Israel organizations. This set off a bit of a political shitstorm. One parliamentarian called the whole thing antisemitic and called on universities to refuse, which made right winger Thierry Baudet accuse this parliamentarian of being more loyal to Israel than the Netherlands.

    I wonder what the motivation behind the request was. Is there any evidence or indication that Israel has undue or illegal influence on Dutch schools? Seems like causing a “shitstorm” is likely the intent.

  • #85988

    A human rights organization in the Netherlands did a freedom of information request directed at universities here to disclose connections with pro-Israel organizations. This set off a bit of a political shitstorm. One parliamentarian called the whole thing antisemitic and called on universities to refuse, which made right winger Thierry Baudet accuse this parliamentarian of being more loyal to Israel than the Netherlands.

    I wonder what the motivation behind the request was. Is there any evidence or indication that Israel has undue or illegal influence on Dutch schools? Seems like causing a “shitstorm” is likely the intent.

    This was an organization thatt does a lot for Palestinians and they thought some Israeli organizations were working to silence pro-Palestine voices in the universities. I think it is legitimate and some of those organizations are probably guilty of that, but maybe the request was too broad and it included more innocuous pro-Israel organizations that do a lot to inform about the Holocaust, for instance.

  • #85997

    Israel makes a lot of money from offshoots of their defence spending, which is almost entirely provided by the USA. They lead the world in CCTV, call recording etc which they sell back as commercial products. It’s very clever but essentially a more subtle manifestation of the military-industrial complex. I’ve sat through several demos of call recording equipment from salesmen from Tel Aviv that have trigger words and even emotion sensers that we had no use for.

    Is that’s what’s funnelling money into Dutch universities? I have no idea. It’s an area that is almost always vague, maybe by design, criticism of the Israeli government is often framed as anti-Semitism even if many Jews living there agree. However criticism of Israel also does frequently fall into anti-Semitism.

    It occupies a unique area really because being Jewish can be a racial, religious or national identity depending on the point of view or context of a particular argument.

    British comedian David Baddiel is very interesting on the subject, he’s an atheist Jew, who says quite rightly it can’t just be a religion as he’d have been sent to death camps under the Nazis regardless of what he believed. Jews are often simultaneously useless but also really clever and ruling the world in the same narrative. They can be white or not white depending on the argument you want to make.

    Where I don’t necessarily disagree but maybe digress from him is he feels as a British Jew he doesn’t give a toss about Israel, which is fair but I do think a lot of the criticism aimed at left wing ‘ant-Semitism’ attacks fell 50/50 on the side of legitimate criticism of the Israeli state. The line is most obviously crossed when the term used is Jewish rather than Israeli but many for me did not cross that line.

     

     

     

     

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  • #86000

    I looked at the FOI request and some of the organizations can’t be said to be anti-Palestinian, or even very pro-Israeli. It is a bad look. It is unfortunate. I think there might really be a problem and there might be pro-Israel organizations doing this, but this actions just makes it easy to dismiss those concerns as anti-semitic.

     

    I dunno. I have some sympathy for Israel, but they should really treat the Palestinians better than they currently do. There is no excuse for their current behavior. Israel and the countries supporting them are on the bad side in this conflict, although obviously the countries opposing Israel are often bad too, in thier own way. There isn’t really a good guy.

     

    It is unfortunate, there really is a rising tide of anti-semitism in my country. We used to be one of the least anti-semitic countries. Now we have a politician in parliament with a significant faction that is spouting this crap non-stop. I think I shifted a bit to the right in some of my political opinions in the last few years, but what Baudet is saying and doing makes me sick.

  • #86006

     

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  • #86088

    New Covid strategy for England:

    “Son, you’re on your own.”

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  • #86196

    I find there is very little genuine criticism of Israel that is anti-Semitic. People certainly use that criticism to add credence to their own anti-Semitic views, but that does not make the criticism less valid.

    I’m not sure how it is elsewhere, but in Europe accusations of anti-Semitism have become an ad hominem fallacy rather than a genuine argument. We never get any discussion of what makes something anti-Semitic. It’s just blindly thrown at anyone who is critical of Israel or of western support for Israel. To my mind, that itself is anti-Semitic as it conflates the nation, and more specifically the government, of Israel with the Jewish race in general. It strips non-Israeli Jews of their identity and would label Jews who are critical of Israel as being anti-Semitic themselves.

  • #86204

    I find there is very little genuine criticism of Israel that is anti-Semitic. People certainly use that criticism to add credence to their own anti-Semitic views, but that does not make the criticism less valid.

    I’m not sure how it is elsewhere, but in Europe accusations of anti-Semitism have become an ad hominem fallacy rather than a genuine argument. We never get any discussion of what makes something anti-Semitic. It’s just blindly thrown at anyone who is critical of Israel or of western support for Israel. To my mind, that itself is anti-Semitic as it conflates the nation, and more specifically the government, of Israel with the Jewish race in general. It strips non-Israeli Jews of their identity and would label Jews who are critical of Israel as being anti-Semitic themselves.

    Oh, if only [redacted] was still here, I’d cancel tonights game and make popcorn.

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  • #86219

    I’m not sure how it is elsewhere, but in Europe accusations of anti-Semitism have become an ad hominem fallacy rather than a genuine argument.

    Well there is some anti-semitism. In Amsterdam it is getting difficult for the Jewish community, with people threatened, businesses vandalized, etc. But I agree many accusations of anti-semitism are more criticism of Israel.

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  • #86228

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest that there isn’t any anti-Semitism. It very much exists. It’s just that actual anti-Semitism doesn’t get anywhere near as much attention. I searched for “anti-Semitism Amsterdam” and found only one article in the first few pages of Google that was addressing actual anti-Semitism. It was about some graffiti on a Jewish business.

    As is traditional in Europe, we don’t really care about the genuine discrimination against Jewish people.

  • #86229

    Well according to this, antisemitic inicdents in 2020 were less than in 2019 so I guess that is good news.

     

    CIDI-Antisemitism-Monitor-2020-summary.pdf

     

    I was personally shocked by a Dutch youtube channel that had a lot of subscribers and which seems associated with a right wing political party here, which spread stories that the US is “ZOG” (zionist occupied government) and said that Israel was behind 911. I do regard that as anti-semitic.

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  • #86238

    Prosecutors Leading Trump Fraud Investigation in NY Resign

    The Manhattan investigation, which proceeded in fits and starts for years, was the most developed of the three criminal inquiries into Mr. Trump. It resulted in the indictments last summer of The Trump Organization and its long-serving chief financial officer, Allen H. Weisselberg, on separate tax-related charges.

    Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to bode well for the other two.

  • #86239

    What do you say about this:

    https://www.npr.org/2022/02/19/1081961087/jeffrey-epstein-jean-luc-brunel-dead

  • #86254

    As is traditional in Europe, we don’t really care about the genuine discrimination against Jewish people.

    Obviously, though, in the Arab nations, especially in regard to Israel, anti-Semitism is pretty common to almost mainstream levels. In regard to Europe, it may depend on where you live. I had Polish neighbors who were very nice, kind and helpful people. We got to talking about movies and they knew all about many Polish directors. I mentioned Polanski and their response was “he’s not Polish. He’s a Jew.”

    Now, there are many reasons to dislike Polanski, but being a Jew is not a valid one.

    I know a few Polish Americans and they certainly aren’t anti-Semitic, but that’s not so true of their parents and grandparents. As far as Eastern Europe, anti-semitism is on the rise as is nationalism and an economic recession will likely exacerbate that trend as it always historically has. Not many people are bringing that up in regard to the consequences of economic sanctions on Russia.

    Israeli Jews are going to be particularly sensitive to this due to their precarious position surrounded by hostile neighbors. There are valid reasons to oppose Israel’s politics, but I often find the people I know that are most violently opposed to Israel also tend to hold some very troubling opinions about Jewish bankers running the world.

    Ironically, and depressingly, some ultraconservative groups are very pro-Israel as they are more opposed to the Arab immigrants in their countries and this is a way to politically hurt them. So you have Neo-Nazis supporting Jews because they hate Arabs. It’s maddening.

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  • #86265

    Yeah looks like a full invasion in Ukraine.  Western “diplomacy” didn’t do a very good job.

     

  • #86273

    I don’t think anyone is surprised that diplomacy failed. It was pretty clear from the onset that Putin had decided to invade Ukraine from the jump. But, of course, everyone needed to attempt to talk him out of it and hope he would see reason. Even if they knew that was unlikely.

    We’re in a pretty scary place right now, though. A nuclear power has just declared war on a European country unprovoked and has essentially threatened nuclear war if anyone tries to interfere. The only way out of this would seem to be if other people inside the Kremlin aren’t down with this and stage a damn coup. And good luck with that.

    Meanwhile, we’ve got Trump over here praising Putin for his moves. And who could have ever really imagined a former president of the US praising a Russian dictator, and former KGB agent, for starting an unprovoked war in Europe that could have devastating impacts around the globe? Let alone that he’d be cheered on by 30% of the US. If history books are ever allowed to be written about this time period, I swear it’ll read like some really bad dystopian fanfiction.

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  • #86379

    It is a scary time. Though it may just be that it’s always been a scary time. The international rules work in the favor of the United States and our allies so when we bomb and invade countries or overthrow regimes it is technically legitimate. So maybe we’re just getting the same feeling people who aren’t in the club get when this stuff happens in the Middle East, Africa or South America.

    historically, this seems more akin to when the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia than when Germany invaded Poland. More like the old NATO vs Warsaw Pact contests and the major players Putin and Biden are Cold War political veterans that both obviously share that mindset.

    still, I feel a lot of sympathy for the Ukrainians and Russians too that wake up with warfare outside and inside their homes. Nevertheless, that’s pretty much been true somewhere in the world our entire lives. Nuclear War has always been a possibility too even after the Soviet Union collapsed.

    again, though, the isolation of Russia from Western Europe seems to be a consistent aim of the United States and managing this conflict seems like it is in the US interest more than resolving it.

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  • #86396

    Meanwhile, we’ve got Trump over here praising Putin for his moves. And who could have ever really imagined a former president of the US praising a Russian dictator, and former KGB agent, for starting an unprovoked war in Europe that could have devastating impacts around the globe?

    US to impose sanctions on Putin following Ukraine invasion

    Wouldn’t be getting this headline if Trump was still in office.

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  • #86399

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  • #86401

    And Baudet is siding with Russia even after the invasion. At least Wilders even if he is an asshole is condemning it.

  • #86404

    I am not sure about the value of a poll like this as it is impossible to predict what Putin would have done if Trump had won in 2020, but it’s a bad sign for Biden.

     

    62 percent of voters say Putin wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine if Trump were president: poll | TheHill

  • #86407

    I am not sure about the value of a poll like this as it is impossible to predict what Putin would have done if Trump had won in 2020, but it’s a bad sign for Biden.

    It is an interesting question. In this regard, Trump has been praising Putin, hasn’t he, so in a literal sense, Trump would not have opposed Putin.

    However, would a Presidential style like Trump’s have given the Russians more uncertainty? Putin implied he’d be willing to use nuclear weapons if resisted. That seems crazy, but nuclear weapons are only a deterrent if your enemies think you will use them.

    If instead of economic sanctions, the US President said “well, we got nukes too, so cross that border and see what happens,” I think the world might shit their pants, but that’s essentially what happened in the Cuban missile crisis too.

    Now, I really have to ask if anyone in power really cares or cared about Ukraine? How many people remember the Russian-Georgian war in 2008? Very similar outcome to this war. Or the war with Chechen rebels before that. Now, we have to ask if NATO would really be willing to directly confront Russia and protect the Baltic States. That’s the problem with going on television and saying you will confront authoritarian aggression. It might end up leading you to actually having to confront authoritarian aggression. And this time it is someone who actually has WMDs just like you do.

     

     

  • #86410

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  • #86411

    We’re in a pretty scary place right now, though. A nuclear power has just declared war on a European country unprovoked and has essentially threatened nuclear war if anyone tries to interfere. The only way out of this would seem to be if other people inside the Kremlin aren’t down with this and stage a damn coup. And good luck with that.

    Or if the US and their NATO buddies stopped trying to encroach on Russia and reached a neutrality agreement for the Ukrainian territory…

    You think the US would react any less rashly and violently if China or Russia tried to set up shop in Mexico or Canada? Fuck no!!! They’d go even more apeshit than usual.

    There’s no good guys and bad guys here, they’re all fuckin’ evil assholes. And like always, the lowly people are the ones to suffer and die. What’s new, really?

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  • #86423

    Honestly I can’t be sure but I think this war could have easily been averted. Saying it couldn’t and there was never a possibility for diplomacy sounds like a massive cope.

     

    Stuff like this is massively insane. I have no words for this lack of common sense from the US.

    Kevin Gosztola on Twitter: “US State Department has come out in opposition to Zelenskyy and Putin meeting to discuss potential ceasefire. (!)

  • #86426

    edit: never mind, mistake on my part

  • #86427

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  • #86428

    Nah, Putin’s a bad guy, but so are we. Ukraine is better off neutral, I think averting WW3 if at all possible is a good thing. I’m sure some smart person on twitter agrees.

  • #86435

    You think the US would react any less rashly and violently if China or Russia tried to set up shop in Mexico or Canada? Fuck no!!! They’d go even more apeshit than usual. There’s no good guys and bad guys here, they’re all fuckin’ evil assholes. And like always, the lowly people are the ones to suffer and die. What’s new, really?

    Cuba, Bay of Pigs, Missile Crisis, Nicaragua and lately Venezuela. Venezuela’s leader pledges military cooperation with Russia | AP News

    The “good guys” are the people in these nations facing devastation and chaos  and their leaders that actually face the same risks due to the games of the superpowers.

    I do wonder if Putin is willing to face an Afghan-like resistance (or even European style WW2 type of resistance) for an extended occupation of a hostile region. In this case, economic sanctions would be a deterrent, wouldn’t it? Ukraine would become the Ireland or Northern Ireland of the Russian Empire only Ukrainian militants don’t need to take a boat to get to Moscow.

    They’d need money to maintain that sort of occupation and it would be a continuous drain on their military. The endgame for Russia may be to negotiate a peace with Western Ukrainian neutrality and Eastern “Donbas” regions incorporated into the Russian Federation. Again, though, that would essentially create an “IRA” or “Basque” type of resistance likely to have plenty of support from Russia’s enemies.

    Even if Russia gets everything it wants from military action, will they really want what they get?

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  • #86439

    Interesting look back after Romney’s recent statements.

    Instead of asking what if Trump was still president, maybe we should ask what if Romney had been president instead of Obama.

  • #86441

    We’re in a pretty scary place right now, though. A nuclear power has just declared war on a European country unprovoked and has essentially threatened nuclear war if anyone tries to interfere. The only way out of this would seem to be if other people inside the Kremlin aren’t down with this and stage a damn coup. And good luck with that.

    Or if the US and their NATO buddies stopped trying to encroach on Russia and reached a neutrality agreement for the Ukrainian territory…

    You think the US would react any less rashly and violently if China or Russia tried to set up shop in Mexico or Canada? Fuck no!!! They’d go even more apeshit than usual.

    There’s no good guys and bad guys here, they’re all fuckin’ evil assholes. And like always, the lowly people are the ones to suffer and die. What’s new, really?

    I mean, the NATO stuff certainly didn’t help, but Putin has been pretty clear that he wants to return Russia to the old USSR days. I have a feeling he’d use any excuse possible to justify an invasion of Ukraine. As evidenced by his attempts to make up some bs excuse this time. This is a dude, after all, who sanctioned cheating at the damn Paralympics. He’s pretty clearly obsessed with image and winning by any means necessary.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the US are good guys here. We’ve done plenty of terrible shit in our history and continue some pretty terrible shit today. Basically look at any law Florida and Texas pass these days and you’ll see the darkness in the US is very front and center. Even presidents I liked were way too eager to drone strike to distract from whatever. And we just had a president who very clearly wished he was Putin but was too damn incompetent to make it happen. Really I just feel badly for the Ukrainian people.

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  • #86465

    Thankfully someone is finally taking decisive steps to sort out the Ukraine situation.

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  • #86513

    That’ll go nicely with all the “OMG, The Simpsons totally predicted the Russian invasion” clickbait bullshit.

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  • #86545

    It does seem possible that Putin may not have been sure that he would invade and it seems even more likely that the majority of the Russian soldiers did not believe they would actually be fighting in Ukraine. Unlike Crimea or Georgia, the Russian media was not pushing the propaganda to prepare their population for an invasion, and we’re seeing the anti-war protests – also in Belarus – as a result.

    It is possible Putin actually thought the US and EU would concede something and then sent in an army that thought it was just there for show and not really prepared to face actual resistance. Especially since they should have expected more support from the pro-Russian Ukrainians which apparently are not actually as large a contingent in the nation as Russia claims.

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  • #86548

    It does seem possible that Putin may not have been sure that he would invade and it seems even more likely that the majority of the Russian soldiers did not believe they would actually be fighting in Ukraine. Unlike Crimea or Georgia, the Russian media was not pushing the propaganda to prepare their population for an invasion, and we’re seeing the anti-war protests – also in Belarus – as a result.

    It is possible Putin actually thought the US and EU would concede something and then sent in an army that thought it was just there for show and not really prepared to face actual resistance. Especially since they should have expected more support from the pro-Russian Ukrainians which apparently are not actually as large a contingent in the nation as Russia claims.

    I’ve seen some stories where the captured Russian soldiers are around 19 and not understanding why they’re there fighting. A Ukrainian general is letting the captured soldiers call their families.

    This whole thing is just coming off half-assed. It feels like Putin truly didn’t expect the world to call his bluff. Now he’s had to go through with it. He has to to save face. He probably thought the Great Russian War Machine (c) would have the whole thing done in a day. Resistance would be weak and it would be easy. Well, that didn’t happen. His nuclear alert also feels like he’s screaming “seriously, take me seriously” like a scorned lover, especially since the world isn’t getting involved militarily. And not only is Russia getting hit with sanctions, but so are Putin and his cronies. They’re probably hurting his cronies a lot more than him so I would imagine they’re all in his face.

    Putin’s action just come across as “weird flex but ok”. I think this may end costing him everything.

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    Ben
  • #86561

    I think a year of military service is mandatory for young Russian men, so I imagine the majority are barely trained young conscripts who would not have gone if not forced to.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Russia

    personally, two years in prison or one year in the Russian Army is a tough choice. Neither sounds worse than the other.

    It is so apparently misguided, I do wonder if Putin simply misjudged the level of Western commitment or if there is some domestic or personal interest this is covering up.

    as far as the US and Europe and all the rest of the world, after fucking Covid, I think this is actually forging more unity and we’re all a bit tougher in gereral. This gives us an external target for all the frustration of the past two years.

    America: I am so pissing tired of this shit!

    Europe: So am I!

    America: I tell ya, after this, nobody better start any…

    Russia: Fuck all y’all!

    America/Europe: All right… it’s on, motherfucker.

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  • #86563

    It probably also didn’t help that Russia was humiliated during the Olympics with the whole figure skating fiasco. It reinforced the message that they’re cheaters and they can’t be trusted.

    This whole Ukrainian thing is just odd. I think this was Putin flexing and thinking everyone was going to bend the knee to appease him. He’d come out of it looking like a boss. I figure he would keep doing this every few years.

    Instead, the world went, “You do you, but you’re an asshole and we’re going to freeze the credit cards of you and your buddies. Peace out, mother fucker.” At that point, he’s like, “Fuuuuuuuuuuuck. I got to go ahead so I don’t look like a pussy.”

    With the sanctions, I’m sure his bros are like, “DUDE! WHAT. THE. FUCK. Our cards are getting declined everywhere!” His own countrymen are PIIIIIIIIIISSSED. And to top it all off, the Ukrainians, being led by a former standup comic, are fighting like coked-up stray cats.

    The optics don’t favor Putin, regardless of the outcome. He doesn’t come out of this looking strong. Everything is making him look weak.

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    Ben
  • #86570

    I mean, the NATO stuff certainly didn’t help, but Putin has been pretty clear that he wants to return Russia to the old USSR days. I have a feeling he’d use any excuse possible to justify an invasion of Ukraine.

    Yes, Georgia and Chechnya were not being courted by NATO.

    I am worried about Putin’s state of mind though, this whole thing seems foolhardy and I’m not sure if Ukrainian resistance highlighting weaknesses in Russia’s power won’t drive him to escalate.

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  • #86572

    I am worried about Putin’s state of mind though, this whole thing seems foolhardy and I’m not sure if Ukrainian resistance highlighting weaknesses in Russia’s power won’t drive him to escalate.

    I recall Stephen Kotkin a few years ago saying that Russia’s diplomacy is based on escalation to de-escalate so they have a stronger position. North Korean political action is similar.

    Russia has a clear policy on use of nuclear weapons that allows it if the Russian state is threatened – in this case Putin is essentially the Russian State, though. So, it is possibly sending the wrong message that he’s raised the threat level so early. Ukraine is not going to invade Russia. NATO is not going to take any direct action against Russian forces in Ukraine or in Russian territory. So, why does he feel so threatened?

    It should be noted that though Russia did invade, I’m not really sure US intelligence actually got this right. Ukraine didn’t think Russia would invade, so obviously the US either did not share intelligence or did not have the evidence that would convince them. The story of a false flag event to create an excuse was not correct either and none of the proposed dates for an invasion turned out to be true. Again, I do wonder if the US intel strategy was to simply instigate an invasion – basically make it impossible for Putin to back down after gathering so many troops for an invasion they really weren’t prepared to carry out.

  • #86574

    I recall Stephen Kotkin a few years ago saying that Russia’s diplomacy is based on escalation to de-escalate so they have a stronger position.

    The US should just fire everyone in the state department and hire Kotkin, the man is fantastic. Better than the Marvel tier fuckwits that have been negotiating so far.

     

    It fits into a kind of typical narrative that Putin is a bond villain who has gone mad, but I think that is far from the truth. This war has been prepared for probably years by a large group of people, and so far it seems to be relatively mild. Russia is not carpet bombing Kiev like a deranged madman would do.

     

    The twitter crowd seems to think Ukraine is fucking awesome, and Putin is Voldemort. It is a fucking Hollywood production for these people. Ukraine is not a good actor, they treated people in Donbas horribly (although genocide like Putin said is an exaggeration), and they have influential actual nazi’s in their administrative structures.

     

    Couple that with Zelensky saying he wants to get nuclear weapons a while back, and I am not surprised why Putin is doing what he is doing (although it is still wrong).

  • #86576

    Russia is not carpet bombing Kiev

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10559373/Ukraine-war-Kyiv-survives-night-Russians-suffer-losses.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/28/russian-rocket-strikes-kill-dozens-in-kharkiv-as-ukraine-russia-talks-begin

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-attacks-civilian-amnesty-ukraine-b2023362.html

     

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  • #86577

    Couple that with Zelensky saying he wants to get nuclear weapons a while back, and I am not surprised why Putin is doing what he is doing.

    If my aggressive neighbor, known for randomly entering apartments that aren’t his, had a gun he kept testing out his backyard I would definitely want to get a gun of my own.

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