Since this is starting up on Friday, March 19th, I figured we should have a dedicated thread to discuss it with spoilers.
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Thread – SPOILERS INSIDE!!!
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An oddly paced episode, but that final image of Cap was quite arresting, and I enjoyed the Dora Milaje kicking butt.
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the Powerbroker thing: who cares… It doesn’t add anything… hey, I’m sure it’s gonna be a plot-twist or a cameo that ties into something else (I’m guessing the Madarin or some bullshit like that)
If it’s Trevor Slattery I’ll be delighted.
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Any time a superhero fight falls apart because somebody dies just feels like a bunch of kids play-fighting and one of them got hurt and now everyone’s scared they’ll get in trouble.
And I twigged this week that Walker’s been giving off major Jonah from Veep vibes this whole time. This isn’t necessarily a criticism, I think it works for the character.
I’m still enjoying the show, but it remains a bit of a mess, a lot of this because it’s trying to say something about politics and equality and the MCU is not up to the task. I think a big part of the problem is that we were teased a show that was going to basically be a lightweight buddy comedy about Falcon and Winter Soldier having the bants and kicking people – but the show is this attempt at a weighty drama (and yeah, I know, trailers lie and I often go on about you shouldn’t set expectations, but this one was pretty egregious). It’s not necessarily bad, but it’s sure not fun
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a lot of this because it’s trying to say something about politics and equality and the MCU is not up to the task.
I think the MCU might be, but not in the hands of this creative team. I mean, they could have at least let Battlestar die a bit more heroically. Poor guy got to do absolutely nothing in the show, then he basically became Cap’s Refrigerator Woman.
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The inclusion of the Dora Milaje felt even more pointless than I expected. Ayo still doesn’t feel like an actual character, and I don’t know what their involvement added, especially how they kept showing up and leaving again for some reason.
Do you honestly think they would NOT get involved when the killer of their monarch gets set free? I loved the fight scene between Walker and the Dora. the entire episode forecast him losing his shit and creating an international incident. i loved the line? “The Dora Milaje have jurisdiction where the Dora Milaje want it”
It was also nice to see Sam in uniform again. -
Zemo is definitely the best thing about this show, although the ending to today’s episode was really good and I want to see how it picks it up. But Walker’s mental instability hasn’t been particularly well set up before this episode.
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Despite what Trump would have you believe, I don’t think there’s any coming back from killing a guy in full view of the public.
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But Walker’s mental instability hasn’t been particularly well set up before this episode.
Don’t you remember when he snapped and screamed “don’t you know who I am” in ep 3? in my book, anyone who uses that line is headed towards mental instability.
I think that thread has progressed quite nicely. They spelled it out fairly explicitly this episode with all the talk about what happens to people when they get power (if they’re not as worthy as Steve Rogers).
I wish they had spent a bit longer with Walker being nice and reasonable so that his decline hit harder, but with only a short episode count I guess there isn’t much time for that.
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Despite what Trump would have you believe, I don’t think there’s any coming back from killing a guy in full view of the public.
I don’t see what Trump has to do with anything but ok…
Anyways, Walker is literally a Captain of the US Army killing a superpowered terrorist who’s posing imminent danger… yes, it is an execution, which is wrong and problematic, but hardly something they wouldn’t be able to spin. I’d be more worried about the diplomatic clusterfuck of a couple of US agents operating on foreign soil just like that.
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I don’t see what Trump has to do with anything but ok…
“I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.”
Donald Trump in 2016.
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I don’t care what Zemo says, Turkish Delight is absolute shite.
He could bribe me with a Toblerone, mind.
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I don’t care what Zemo says, Turkish Delight is absolute shite.
Agree.
He’s obviously been reading too much of The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe.
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Saga and Dave have been banned for heresy.
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Christopher Priest reflects on his groundbreaking 1983 miniseries, The Falcon, and Sam Wilson in the MCU
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/the-falcon-marvel-christopher-priest-series
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Just as well he wasn’t offering Runts.
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He’s obviously been reading too much of The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe.
That statement is false. No such thing as “reading too much of The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe”.
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He says “like some message board incel.”
What is he misinterpreting?
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It’s a click-baity title, but he completely justifies it in the article. His analysis that Walker is over-compensating for feelings of inadequacy seems spot-on to me. And the idea that the super-soldier serum amplified his barely-contained anger and frustration also seems accurate. And seriously Jon, stop using phrases like “bitch, please.” It makes you sound like an idiot.
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(There’s probably no need for anyone to be calling each other bitches or idiots in a thread about the flying-man and robot-arm-dude TV show.)
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And seriously Jon, stop using phrases like “bitch, please.” It makes you sound like an idiot.
So does trying to gaslight people… Do you feel it’s justified? Fine, whatever… but there’s no doubt he’s (wrongly, imo) calling the character an incel, whether it’s a clickbait title or not… the whole damned article is clickbait anyways, so that’s not an excuse.
Now if the article had “Incel-like Captain America is perfect” as a title, then sure, you’d have a leg to stand on… but as it is, I don’t see what you’re trying to accomplish by questioning me on that much.
Also, nice job on turning an off-hand remark about a stupid click-bait article into a whole thing
(There’s probably no need for anyone to be calling each other bitches or idiots in a thread about the flying-man and robot-arm-dude TV show.)
I thought “bitch, please!” was a well known comedic expression? Well, at least according to the many movies and tv shows I’ve heard it on…
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ZemoDance comic book version, by Elizabeth Torque.
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that coat is amazing and I want it.
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…do they know the finale is next week?
All of the momentum built up last week is just gone. This would be a fine mid-season episode in a show with a longer season, but there’s only six episodes!
The Isaiah Bradley scenes were good, but didn’t give us anything we didn’t get from his Ep. 2 scene. I’m happy they brought him in, but I wish he’d had more to do.
I don’t care about the boat. I will never care about the boat. Stop talking about the boat. Boat boat boat.
The Zemo resolution was far too easy. He was the most entertaining part of the show, and deserved far better than that. I don’t know why he wasn’t just captured last episode.
Why is Sharon in this show? What did her one scene this week and last week add?
The Julia Louis-Dreyfus appearance took me completely by surprise, especially coming at this point in the show. This is when you introduce a new character? I was happy to see her, even if I’m not sure she fitted the tone.
Again, I did like the Walker stuff. The opening fight scene was cool, and the scenes of him at home were better than the boat stuff, even if I don’t think he’d be disavowed that quickly or unanimously IRL. We got all those videos of him murdering someone last week; I’d have liked to have seen the reactions to that from regular MCU people.
They haven’t done a good enough job explaining the role of the GRC for that ending to really matter. I get what they’re going for, but it’s not done well enough.
Post-credits scene! An okay one!
Anyway, disappointing show continues to disappoint.
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Why is Sharon in this show? What did her one scene this week and last week add?
She’s the Power Broker
The Julia Louis-Dreyfus appearance took me completely by surprise, especially coming at this point in the show. This is when you introduce a new character? I was happy to see her, even if I’m not sure she fitted the tone.
It really hammered home my feeling that Walker is basically Jonah from Veep.
Other than that? Yeah, the pacing is a mess here. I liked the character work for the most part but it deflated the momentum when it should have been building up. Stuff like the GRC vote came out of nowhere at the end when it should have been foreshadowed weeks ago.
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Yeah, this is the first mention of the GRC having some kind of vote, isn’t it?
JLD is a fun addition, but so late in the day.
Walker making his own shield looks fun and I think it’ll be a cool moment seeing him turn up as Knock-Off Captain America for the first time. But for that this series has some cool moments, it’s really not coming together as a series very well. As Paul said, all momentum drained away after last week’s episode here. The family drama stuff doesn’t gel properly with a globe-trotting big politics story with so many plots threads.
Sam’s training montage was a bit stupid too because it starts with him being almost unable to catch the shield from a straight throw, which we saw him doing fine a few scenes earlier with Bucky.
Despite the show’s attempts to wrestle with the topic, I still don’t think Sam becoming Captain America (as he’s clearly going to next episode) is a good idea. Just as when the comics did it a few years ago, it requires you to accept that the identity of Captain America is so much more valuable than that of the Falcon, the one Sam’s spent a decade building. The black guy’s superhero identity is disposable in the face of continuing the white guy’s legacy.
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She’s the Power Broker
Probably, but why? Why bring back that character for this reason? What does it matter who the Power Broker is? None of the characters seem to care, so it’s just a mystery for the audience? Maybe there will be a good explanation next week, but from what we’ve seen in this show she’s a completely different character from the one in the Cap movies (not that she had much of a character in those).
Maybe we’ll get a “she’s being mind controlled” twist like in the Brubaker run, but I don’t get what that would add. I hope it’s not yet another Skrull reveal.
The Torres character has been a waste too. I thought he might have a role in the plot at the start of the series, but he mostly shows up to dole out exposition and then disappears.
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JL-D’s character was supposed to debut in a cameo in Black Widow, before the delays: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/04/julia-louis-dreyfus-marvel-villain-character-contessa-valentina-allegra-de-fontaine
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She’s the Power Broker
Probably, but why? Why bring back that character for this reason? What does it matter who the Power Broker is? None of the characters seem to care, so it’s just a mystery for the audience? Maybe there will be a good explanation next week, but from what we’ve seen in this show she’s a completely different character from the one in the Cap movies (not that she had much of a character in those).
Maybe we’ll get a “she’s being mind controlled” twist like in the Brubaker run, but I don’t get what that would add. I hope it’s not yet another Skrull reveal.
The Torres character has been a waste too. I thought he might have a role in the plot at the start of the series, but he mostly shows up to dole out exposition and then disappears.
I assume the reveal that Sharon is the Power Broker will be a stunning revelation at the end of the show or something. And I think it’s endemic of this show’s big problem (and a big problem with the MCU in general), because it’s really servicing other Marvel stories instead of concentrating on its’ own stuff. It’s setting up USAgent, it’s setting up the Power Broker, it’s introducing Madam Hydra… And fucking the pacing of the actual story the show is meant to be telling.
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I wouldn’t be surprised if Sharon is not only the Power Broker, but also a Skrull. That will lead into the Secret Invasion series.
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I wouldn’t be surprised if Sharon is not only the Power Broker, but also a Skrull. That will lead into the Secret Invasion series.
Oh Christ, that’s exactly what’s gonna happen – we get the reveal that she’s the Power Broker, and then the post-credit scene is she’s a Skrull.
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Yeah, I’ve been thinking either Skrull or mind control, like in the Brubaker run.
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Overall though I agree with the general consensus here. I spent the whole back half of the episode wondering what the show had turned into.
(I can’t believe they blew the whole “fixing up a boat” sequence in the penultimate episode, now they’ve got nothing held back for the big finale!)
It felt like everyone just stopped caring about the big earth-shattering terrorist plot for a while so they could bugger about with their own problems for a bit. And it killed any residual momentum stone dead.
(And yeah, what was going on with the structure of the Sam/training stuff in this episode? They had the training montage some time after showing him being able to toss and catch the shield easily, with Bucky. I assume they moved some bits around in editing but it completely undercut the point of the montage.)
So the show feels like a bit of a mess at this point. I think the only way it can be rescued now is a finale that’s presented entirely from JLD’s character’s point of view, shot in the style of Veep.
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When Zemo isn’t on screen all the other characters should be asking where he is.
I now want a team with Zemo, Darcy and Jimmy Woo investigating strange goings on in the MCU.
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Yeah, it’s a bit of a mess. The thing is that there is a lot there that I like: I loved Zemo in the last two episodes (man, he’s the only one who gets shit done!), I liked Walker’s character arc a lot, Sam’s development and how he came together with Bucky was fine… but structurally, it’s a mess, and yeah, the fucking boat, nobody gives a shit! But the worst thing of it all are the antagonists. They just didn’t manage to make any of it believable. What, the problem is that these people are displaced? Well, for one thing, that doesn’t seem realistic at all, for the other one has to wonder why all these refugee people mostly look and act like middle-class white people (yeah, I mean, you couldn’t show a terrorist network of middle-Eastern and African people, I get that, but maybe that’s why the Flag Smashers aren’t such a great ide in the first place) and most importantly of all, the logic here seems to be, these people’s status was revoked because we’re suddenly back to being overpopulated, and the reaction is just to fucking bomb everybody that took them in in the first place – and we’re supposed to sympathise with that? How the fuck is that logic supposed to work? They keep doing bad expositionary dialogue with Karli and it doesn’t do fuck all to make them seem like anything but assholes who need a good kicking, which the heroes weirdly seem unwilling to give them. And then they explicitly set out to kill Cap (and presumably Lemar) and when they do kill one of them they suddenly run away all shocked as if that wasn’t the plan when it absolutely was? And then we’re what, supposed to feel bad for the guy who says “It wasn’t me!” as if he wasn’t trying to kill them both?
So, yeah, the bad guys don’t work, they’re nonsense. I don’t even know what Falcon is agreeing with Karli on. What exactly is her goal there? What does she want to achieve outside of killing a bunch of people? What institutions is she even targetting? It’s all nonsense, and that’s a problem. Zemo is a cool character because he’s got a clear motivation and he is willing to do whatever it takes. The Flag Smashers are fucking asshole cowards and the show doesn’t know what to do with them.
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It’s all nonsense, and that’s a problem.
I don’t even mind nonsense if it’s entertaining, but this is all such tedious nonsense.
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The pacing and structure is my biggest issue with the show; big fight scene, followed by literally half an hour of speechifying, followed by that weird-ass Rocky training montage… it’s just all over the shop.
It does have the occasional good moment, but they’re often just the best bits of the comics that inspired them, and then it’s like somebody threw those bits into a blender and just emptied the contents onto a page and filmed it.
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It feels like in the attempt to make this a six-part series, a lot of “connective tissue” was lost. Storylines and arcs just don’t flow and connect like they should. It feels like we’re missing bits of story here and there.
Episode 5 should have been building a sense of urgency for the various plot threads to come together in the finale. Our collective heart rates should have been through the roof at the end of the episode in anticipation of the finale next week. Instead, we got boat repairs and training montages for the majority of the episode. The only urgency we felt is “how are they going to resolve everything after pissing away this episode?” Ultimately, this series needed more episodes or a tighter, more focused script.
I’m glad they didn’t kill Zemo. A huge problem with superhero movies is the villain dies in the end too often. Seeing Batroc was a pleasant surprise in the first episode (and in the latest one, too). There really needs to be a rogues gallery not just for specific characters, but for the entire cinematic universe. I hope Lady Flag Smasher doesn’t die simply because that would be boring and predictable.
I have also liked the racial commentary component of the series. It has been a pleasant surprise for a Disney show. They’ve gone farther with it than I expected.
I’m probably in the minority here but I like that Marvel has been addressing the aftermath of the Blip. Too often in comics after a major crossover/event, the ramifications are addressed in a cursory manner or ignored completely. I like that we’re seeing the effects of the Blip on the world and the characters.
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I think dealing with the Blip was a good idea as a concept, and I also kinda like the idea that they decided they wanted to do a motif that has to do with the situation of refugees in the real world. Problem is, it doesn’t fucking work and then it’s worse than just not talking about these things at all. They clearly wanted to go for moral ambiguity and all that, but how moral ambuigious is it to bomb and kill innocent people because you’ve had to live in an actually quite nice-looking old building in Riga for a while? Well done, fucking writer’s room, you asses.
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I hope Lady Flag Smasher doesn’t die simply because that would be boring and predictable.
I will stake money on her dying, along with a vain attempt to make us feel sympathy for her.
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Yeah, I’m all for addressing the Blip (especially given it was sort of played for laughs in Spider-Man, which is fair enough given it’s Spider-Man, but that shouldn’t be the only follow-up to it) and I think pretty much every Marvel thing until the real world catches up to the Endgame time skip will be in the aftermath of the Blip.
I also like that this series has taken a different tack on it. Spider-Man and Monica in Wandavision are about those who lost something by being away for 5 years. Having the opposite of that, people who used those five years to make a better life for themselves only to have it taken away from them when everyone magically came back, is a good idea. But it hasn’t really put that out well. People wanting to keep the lives they’ve built is a long way from “no governments, no borders” and mass refugee camps and then terrorism.
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Okay, so what the hell is the Power Broker? Someone who is in charge of these Flag Smashers? What is the relationship between the two? Why should I care if it is Sharon? What the hell is she even doing now? Selling stolen art?
None of that stuff has come together in the slightest. It’s like someone took a relatively decent show about Sam, Bucky and Walker and dropped in random scenes of shit from some My5 TV movie.
Honestly, I’m more interested in what happens to the damn boat than what happens to the little redhead girl. Will they paint it? Will they not? Oooh, dramatic tension…
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I’m hoping that episode 6 is entirely about Sam’s sister and the boat (maybe with a news report on the radio in the background mentioning that everything turned out fine in New York.)
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Am hour of them and Bucky hanging out, bringing back the banter, maybe crank calling Zemo? Sounds great.
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They need to stop screwing around with post-credit sequences – do them consistently or don’t do them at all – instead of this random stealth crap.
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They need to stop screwing around with post-credit sequences – do them consistently or don’t do them at all – instead of this random stealth crap.
Yeah I agree. I sometimes only see them if someone points them out here. I’m not scrolling through seven minutes of credits when they do them so infrequently.
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Is he actually just making a shield out of regular metal? I hope there’s a fight scene next week in which Bucky immediately crushes it.
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Is he actually just making a shield out of regular metal? I hope there’s a fight scene next week in which Bucky immediately crushes it.
Yeah, plus his dead buddy’s badge presumably “tO hOnoUr HiS sAcRiFiCe.” *vomit*
His shield had better look janky as f***, unless the super-solider serum suddenly gave him super-metal-working-prowess. I’d love it if he threw it and it just wobbled off wildly to the left somewhere.
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OK, here we go:
Why the Flag Smashers don’t work by Lorcan Nagle, age 43 3/4.
So, let’s lay out what we know about the Flag Smashers’ ideology to begin with.
1. They are for a removal of borders and better distribution of goods
2. They are opposed to a return to the pre-blip status quo
3. They are against the forced migration of refugees who relocated during the blip.This seems reasonable enough, right? We’re in the classic Magneto “good goals, wrong methods” point of the antagonist axis? The show certainly wants to us feel that way, what with Sam trying to reach out to Karli last week.
The problem is, the storytelling around the Blip is so sketchy the whole thing falls apart.
Implication the first: With half the world’s people gone, it meant more for everyone and that’s why people are opposed to the new post-blips status quo. If this is the case though, it basically says that Thanos was right, that wiping out half the universe was the logical and correct thing to do, and it casts the Flag Smashers and their supporters as selfish and willing to turn the post-blip returnees into refugees to maintain their relatively comfortable life.
Implication the second: If that implication is wrong, it suggests that maybe people were brought in to specific population centres to keep them running, and were materially rewarded for this happening, but now that everyone’s back they want to ship everyone home because… maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh, I guess?
Ultimately, the show doesn’t want to pin down the economic status of the planet during the Blip, because it either means that Thanos was right, or the people in charge now are being needlessly cruel, or there’s a reasonable explanation that renders the Flag Smashers unreasonable – and if that’s the case they’re no longer idealistic but misguided. Instead it defaults to to having Karli act erratically like blowing up the warehouse to make her position seem more extreme. It serves the logic of where they want the story to go, but it doesn’t fit the actual logic of the world as presented.
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Don’t forget the super duper secret app they all seem to have on their phone to find one another. It is all so very bad. I don’t get the GRC thing either. There’s some grand committee that gets to decide where everyone in the world lives and that’s that? The UN can barely decide on their lunch orders, let alone anything on that scale.
If the show had just focused on its title characters and used Zemo as the villain it would have been plenty of fun. That potential good show is drowning under the collosal bullshit of the Flag Smashers.
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Don’t forget the super duper secret app they all seem to have on their phone to find one another. It is all so very bad. I don’t get the GRC thing either. There’s some grand committee that gets to decide where everyone in the world lives and that’s that? The UN can barely decide on their lunch orders, let alone anything on that scale.
Yeah, the GRC is kinda what I’m talking about with the whole manical laugh bit – the guy at the meeting who’s just “I can have everyone forcibly relocated if I pick up the phone” is cartoon villainy from somebody we haven’t seen before and it’s just there to make the Flag Smashers seem more reasonable after the show’s spent three episodes making them seem less reasonable.
That said, the app thing doesn’t bother me at all, it’s small fry compared to flying mansuit.
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OK, here we go:
Why the Flag Smashers don’t work by Lorcan Nagle, age 43 3/4.
So, let’s lay out what we know about the Flag Smashers’ ideology to begin with.
1. They are for a removal of borders and better distribution of goods
2. They are opposed to a return to the pre-blip status quo
3. They are against the forced migration of refugees who relocated during the blip.This seems reasonable enough, right? We’re in the classic Magneto “good goals, wrong methods” point of the antagonist axis? The show certainly wants to us feel that way, what with Sam trying to reach out to Karli last week.
The problem is, the storytelling around the Blip is so sketchy the whole thing falls apart.
Implication the first: With half the world’s people gone, it meant more for everyone and that’s why people are opposed to the new post-blips status quo. If this is the case though, it basically says that Thanos was right, that wiping out half the universe was the logical and correct thing to do, and it casts the Flag Smashers and their supporters as selfish and willing to turn the post-blip returnees into refugees to maintain their relatively comfortable life.
Implication the second: If that implication is wrong, it suggests that maybe people were brought in to specific population centres to keep them running, and were materially rewarded for this happening, but now that everyone’s back they want to ship everyone home because… maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh, I guess?
Ultimately, the show doesn’t want to pin down the economic status of the planet during the Blip, because it either means that Thanos was right, or the people in charge now are being needlessly cruel, or there’s a reasonable explanation that renders the Flag Smashers unreasonable – and if that’s the case they’re no longer idealistic but misguided. Instead it defaults to to having Karli act erratically like blowing up the warehouse to make her position seem more extreme. It serves the logic of where they want the story to go, but it doesn’t fit the actual logic of the world as presented.
For comparison, this is Flag-Smasher and ULTIMATUM from the comic books:
Swiss by birth, Karl Morgenthau’s father was a diplomat who travelled the world with his young son. The child was proficient in a number of intellectual areas, but stunted in interpersonal relationships due to his unstable upbringing. When he was nineteen, his father was trampled to death at a riot in the Latverian Embassy, and the young Morgenthau became determined to destroy all nations in order to eliminate nationalism, which he saw as the source of human suffering. He took up the mantle of Flag-Smasher and formed ULTIMATUM to further his anti-nationalist agenda through terrorism.
Ultimatum is an acronym standing for Underground Liberated Totally Integrated Mobile Army To Unite Mankind.
It is an anarchistic organization dedicated to abolishing the concept of nationalism in order to bring about world unification through the use of terrorist activity against governments, institutions, and other symbols of nationalism, while supplying arms to various subversives.
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Ultimatum is an acronym standing for Underground Liberated Totally Integrated Mobile Army To Unite Mankind.
It was really embarrassing during that period when they were still only partially integrated and had to be called ULPIMATUM.
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She can whistle really well!
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Well, that’s true, that was a really good whistle.
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She’s got pretty good hair for a murderous hobo.
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I’ve had this conversation various times since the start of the series with a few people. I think they’ve tried to have their cake and eat it, but made it needlessly confusing as a result.
It’s weird how they talk about Steve as though he’s completely off the table, despite him being shown to be alive (but old) as of the end of Endgame, and there still being clear confusion as to his status in-universe (with those theories mentioned in episode one that he’s in a base on the moon).
It definitely feels to me like they’re deliberately leaving the door open for his return (maybe a cameo) while trying to justify why he can’t play an active role in this story.
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Captain America turning into Grandpa Simpson is gold, I tells ya, gold.
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(with those theories mentioned in episode one that he’s in a base on the moon).
He’s in the Summer House, and this is how they’re getting the X-Men into the MCU
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(with those theories mentioned in episode one that he’s in a base on the moon).
He’s in the Summer House, and this is how they’re getting the X-Men into the MCU
Something something Mephisto
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He’s hanging out in Florida with some old ladies and this is how the Golden Girls get into the MCU.
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