Talk about the art of storytelling here.
Storytelling: the neverending story
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I mean, one of the reasons why I’m such a gigantic fan of MOS/BvS is precisely because he’s not the perfect being and his inner conflict is front stage in the plot… I don’t really see how he’s “a nut”, tbh, but yeah, having him struggle inside is a much better way to go with such a character. Specially in the Snyder movies, where he is really, really, REALLY powerful… it adds a nice balance to the character.
Plus I’m pretty sure he also had inner conflicta in the much revered and overated Donner movies anyways, so yeah…
The “perfect” Superman is superboring and why I’m not really a fan of the character, it’s too fake and hypocritical.1 user thanked author for this post.
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Chekov’s gun is typically a Type-2 Phaser.
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Reed is so smart, he could learn all there is to know about lawyering in 5 minutes and be a better lawyer than Murdoch.
see my post on pg 5 or read FF37.
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see my post on pg 5 or read FF37.
I will pick up that issue. Many thanks. Nice to see She Hulk as an attorney.
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In going back to that last page and the posting on Wanda, I was talking about the trope of writers putting a woman through all this trauma.
Wanda, Carol Danvers, Rogue, Jean Grey, Madeline Pryor, Polaris, etc… Are the writers in love with putting women through severe trauma (rape, loss of children and so on)? It supposedly makes them stronger characters like GRRM writes them in Game of Thrones.
Getting back to comics, it is also saying that women can’t really handle all that power like Jean Grey couldn’t handle the Phoenix power in the Dark Phoenix storyline, Wanda, Rogue absorbing Danvers, and so on.
Sexism? Misogyny?
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read FF37
“Behold! A Distant Star!”?
I guess you’re referring to Reed’s gambit of tricking the Skrulls into making him use the power booster. Proof that he would make a great lawyer?
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Maybe but I think you’d probably need to compare with male counterparts as going through the mill is a just a general trope in hero stories. Your main example is Daredevil who is always on the edges of sanity since Born Again. Bruce Banner is a victim of child abuse. Angel was crucified and mutilated and tried to commit suicide. Wolverine’s back story is trauma central. Magneto lost all his family in death camps. Not too cheery for the guys.
The more common and I think accurate accusation there is the trope of women being unable to handle great power, albeit with something like Phoenix that is rather offset by Mastermind’s manipulation, later in Claremont’s run her daughter Rachel is the most comfortable and stable host Phoenix force has had. The Danvers story in Avengers where she carries that alien guy’s child is pretty indefensible though, to the extent there’s a very meta moment in the comics where she calls the rest of the Avengers out but I think is really the writer calling out the shitty story told by his predecessors.
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But you still can’t get past what Gail Simone said about women in refrigerators ie. that scene with the Kyle Raynor GL… And the wife of the Elongated Man in one issue and what she went through.
Yeah late 90s and early 2000s DC were very bad for that stuff. Gail is right.
I actually like Identity Crisis as a well crafted comic but it’s very bad within the context of what it does to the DCU. They even had a spinoff issue which headlined ‘the autopsy of Sue Dibney’ as a selling point. Then followed it up with Batman doing unforgivable things with memory wipes.
Injustice in many ways is even worse storywise but for me it gets away with all of it because it is an Elseworlds story, some computer game wanted heroes fighting heroes and Tom Taylor concocted a decent reason why Superman becomes a fascist. In any ‘What If’ style scenario you can get away with a lot but in continuity it is hard to forget.
The minute they decided on X-Factor being a good idea and Scott abandoning his wife and child he’s never really been able to come back from that. Claremont’s intention was after #201 he’d just retire to Alaska knowing Storm was the better leader and be a good dad and husband, that lasted barely a couple of months purely because editorial wanted to get an extra X-Book.
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It still kinda blows my mind that Claremont wanted to make them Nightcrawler’s parents (with Mystique as the father).
It’s funny how early on too. Like I say in those days they had to be very subtle but a sexual relationship between them is hinted at from the first panel they appear together. That first issue it’s repeated that Raven only considers Irene to be her ‘friend’ and repeats it all the way through. Now we know in retrospect they were always a couple and it becomes a lot less subtle as the run continues.
Everything in the current storylines with Mystique demanding they ‘bring my wife back’ could never be said then but fits perfectly with what was on the page 30 years before.
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The minute they decided on X-Factor being a good idea and Scott abandoning his wife and child he’s never really been able to come back from that. Claremont’s intention was after #201 he’d just retire to Alaska knowing Storm was the better leader and be a good dad and husband, that lasted barely a couple of months purely because editorial wanted to get an extra X-Book.
Don’t remind me.
They wanted Jean to come back. so they retconned the Phoenix story and things to the point where Scott had to be a d*ck in abandoning his wife and child.
The powers that be at that time really messed things up and Scott as a character was never really able to recover.
Thanks Marvel.
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Or was it Batman who had his memory wiped, by Zatanna? I forget…
It was Dave who has his memory wiped by John Constantine.
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read FF37
“Behold! A Distant Star!”?
I guess you’re referring to Reed’s gambit of tricking the Skrulls into making him use the power booster. Proof that he would make a great lawyer?
{SIGH} the current version written by Slott, David!
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read FF37
“Behold! A Distant Star!”?
I guess you’re referring to Reed’s gambit of tricking the Skrulls into making him use the power booster. Proof that he would make a great lawyer?
{SIGH} the current version written by Slott, David!
What you said will not make sense to David and add further to his confusion.
His mind is quite fragile, you know. It’s like a Hummel figure that looks like a Legion of Super-Heroes character.
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They wanted Jean to come back. so they retconned the Phoenix story and things to the point where Scott had to be a d*ck in abandoning his wife and child.
Claremont begged Jim Shooter to take his alternative idea of using Jean’s sister but they went with the Busiek/Byrne version.
There’s a funny story that Ann Nocenti took CC out for a meal on a Friday night and told him the decision about an hour after the Marvel offices closed because she knew otherwise he’d storm in and either have a fight with Shooter or resign. Telling him after the office had closed for the weekend gave him 2 days to cool down.
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And yet, at the time, I read those early X-Factor issues and was completely engrossed in the character relationships. Scott’s actions may have made him an irredeemable dick, but they also made great (melo)drama.
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In the Bendis Legion, Lightning Lad has black skin. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence, though. They needed a token black Legionnaire and probably just pulled a name out of a hat. Could have been anyone
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They could have chosen Ferro Lad, as Jim Shooter originally intended.
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Black Vulcan/Static Shock/Black Lightning thing
Black Vulcan is not a distinct hero. He is just a version of Black Lightning that the SuperFriends created when they couldnt have the original.
Black Vulcan was created to be a member of the Super Friends when Black Lightning’s creator Tony Isabella refused to let his character be a part of the lineup. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/black-vulcan/4005-81720/
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The Mad Scientist
Sometimes it makes me wonder how someone competent enough to be a scientist understanding complex equations, tech, science can also be “off” in the head.
But it can be both things.
I know a man IRL who has a doctorate in mathematics, but became convinced that others were trying to steal the equations and formulas from inside his head. Actually very sad, he basically became a shut-in whose elderly mother had to support him and take care of him.
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I have to admit I have a weakness for the manix pixie dream girl. I mean, she gets on my nerves terribly when it comes to New Girl, but if we’re talking Betty Blue or Scott Pilgrim or Looking for Alaska – that’s the kind of fictional girl I’ll fall in love with. I think 500 Days of Summer is a nice subversion, as he thinks of her as a manic pixie dream girl but the story is actually a more realistic version of that so she actually has some deep issues and that’s what tears them apart in the end.
(I feel like a version of this also happened to me in real life.)
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Lex Luthor is brilliant, but he is “off” when it comes to Superman. A lot of those villains associated with Spider-Man have PhDs.
SUPERMAN: You’re insane, Luthor!
LEX: No. I’m evil. Can’t people simply be evil anymore without somebody calling a shrink?!
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if we’re talking Betty Blue or Scott Pilgrim or Looking for Alaska – that’s the kind of fictional girl I’ll fall in love with
For Scott Pilgrim you mean Knives, right?
Because I will never understand why anyone would bother with Ramona Flowers, who has zero personality and no interests in common with you (has no interests at all, as far as we can tell) when you could have Knives Chau.
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But Scott has the emotional maturity of a high-school kid himself. And by the end of the movie, Knives is more mature than Scott. Really, Knives is the only character in the entire movie who shows any character growth and comes out of it a better person (even with the supposed maturity “levelling up” Scott gains in the last fight).
Scott and Ramona are just the most insipid, bland, pointless protagonists imaginable. So there’s one thing they have in common, at least
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But Scott has the emotional maturity of a high-school kid himself. And by the end of the movie, Knives is more mature than Scott. Really, Knives is the only character in the entire movie who shows any character growth and comes out of it a better person (even with the supposed maturity “levelling up” Scott gains in the last fight).
We get it, you have an asian fetish.
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But Scott has the emotional maturity of a high-school kid himself. And by the end of the movie, Knives is more mature than Scott. Really, Knives is the only character in the entire movie who shows any character growth and comes out of it a better person (even with the supposed maturity “levelling up” Scott gains in the last fight).
We get it, you have an asian fetish.
You say it like that’s a problem
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But Scott has the emotional maturity of a high-school kid himself. And by the end of the movie, Knives is more mature than Scott. Really, Knives is the only character in the entire movie who shows any character growth and comes out of it a better person (even with the supposed maturity “levelling up” Scott gains in the last fight).
We get it, you have an asian fetish.
You say it like that’s a problem
I guess I just feel excluded.
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But Scott has the emotional maturity of a high-school kid himself. And by the end of the movie, Knives is more mature than Scott.
However, that is the reason Scott should not go with Knives. He will not mature at the same level or rate as she will so she really deserves someone other than him – if she really needs anyone anyway. Another big difference in that Knives doesn’t emotionally need a partner as much as Scott obviously feels that he does.
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Lex Luthor is brilliant, but he is “off” when it comes to Superman.
Reminds me of the Silver Age story, where he was the biggest fan of Superboy, then blamed teen Kal-el on some lab accident where he lost all his hair. Lex never was the same after that, and became the mad scientist.
The Byrne run was more reasonable. He was this huge mogul and saw Kal-El as an obstacle preventing him from dominating the world. I think Grant Morrison had Luthor say the same thing in the All Star issues.
The best take imho, is having Luthor as a devout humanist feeling that humanity can go it all alone and doesn’t need an alien to help or be this guiding light to the people.
All three still have Luthor being “off” in their own way.
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J. Jonah Jameson, but without the personality
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I always like the criminal genius versions of Luthor (like in All-Star Superman) over the corporate CEO or a kind of bad Tony Stark or Reed Richards. Someone like Raymond Reddington in BLACKLIST or the original version portrayed by Gene Hackman.
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How long is this mans torso?
Not as long as his arms at the end:
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Reading comic stories, you can see where some of the writers sort of take things too far and make things too gratuitous.
I read a little of Jason Aaron’s Heroes Reborn about the Mephisto created Squadron Supreme, and a lot of it was so over the top on the violence as if to hit you over the head with because of the reality distortion, that team was invincible (ie. their “Green Lantern” blinded the Watcher, and tortured a Celestial) until they met their demise in the end fighting the secretly formed …you know.
Some of the Ultimates by MM had the team betrayed, splintered, and the Statue of Liberty toppled over. His Ultimate Xmen run had its moments too like soldiers torturing Wolverine, invading the mansion, carrying Xavier away and drawing an 8 ball on his scalp.
Then about 40 years ago, there was a story about Danvers being SA, and it got by almost everyone at Marvel except for a few like Claremont, who retconned the story in Avengers Annual 10. Claremont himself went over the top a few times in his Xmen run, especially the Kulan Garth story where Selene was apparently gang SA by guards and so on.
I get it that a degree of violence and trauma can add to the drama of a story, but too much can…
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Garth Ennis and Warren Ellis and even Alan Moore and Grant Morrison are guilty of that as well. Something about growing up the UK, I suppose.
Still, edginess, grim and gritty and controversial content is driven by the audience as much as the creative teams. If the books weren’t successful, then they wouldn’t do it, but since they were, that means the extreme stuff must be what the audience was willing to pay for,
Same for Game of Thrones or The Boys now on Amazon – or Ennis’ other show Preacher when it was on. Arguably, the television series are more over the top at times than the comics.
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Alan Moore has complained that people learned the wrong lessons from Watchmen. He wanted to show creators how to make full use of the technical possibilities of the comics medium, but the only lesson they took away was, “Let’s be more gratuitously gritty and violent!”
Of course, Moore’s complaint is undermined by his following works also being more gritty and violent, but that’s just how he rolls
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A bit. I mean Moore left big 2 comics pretty soon after Killing Joke came out and Watchmen finished, in 1988. So while yes stuff like From Hell and Providence are very gritty and violent it is hard to avoid that with source material from a serial killer and Lovecraft.
His next superhero stuff though from Image and then ABC was generally quite light hearted.
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I mean, the first arc of Top 10 was investigating celebrity child molestors and a goddess hooked on super-crack.
Top 10 did but I think it’s fair to argue the whole thing was a take on ensemble cop shows like Hill Street Blues but with superhero trimmings rather than a straight superhero book. Even the most mainstream of cop shows will be investigating sexual abuse and drug issues on a weekly basis.
Either way I do think Moore diverged quite a bit from a path of ever more gritty and violent superheroes. His anthology was mainly comedy stories, Supreme and Tom Strong traded strongly on golden age heroism.
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I mean, one of the reasons why I’m such a gigantic fan of MOS/BvS is precisely because he’s not the perfect being and his inner conflict is front stage in the plot… I don’t really see how he’s “a nut”, tbh, but yeah, having him struggle inside is a much better way to go with such a character. Specially in the Snyder movies, where he is really, really, REALLY powerful… it adds a nice balance to the character.
Plus I’m pretty sure he also had inner conflicta in the much revered and overated Donner movies anyways, so yeah…
The “perfect” Superman is superboring and why I’m not really a fan of the character, it’s too fake and hypocritical.This is a good point. I do find I’m more disappointed with the execution of the story and direction in all the Snyder films, but I am involved with the characterization. I had a similar response to HANCOCK which I think is very similar to MAN OF STEEL though which a more comedic edge.
However, essentially the ideal superheroes are meant to be super-boring due to the constraints of the comics medium. Or more precisely, they were super-generic so that the reader could project their own personalities into them. The specificity of the story was focused on the supporting characters that the heroes were helping or rescuing. Though, even then – especially with love interests – many of them were very stereotypical as well.
That changed a bit with what we started calling “decompression” in comics, but was really a more novelistic approach so writers could be more specific and diverse with the character development. The stories emphasized the heroes as characters rather than the heroics.
That’s now the more standard approach and certainly the successful adventure/action movies are going to go in that direction.
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True, Supreme was originally an ultraviolent comic and Alan Moore went in completely the opposite direction with it. Tom Strong was essentially the same approach. Promethea was fairly mature but not ultraviolent.
After a while as the 90s came it seemed SA is a little gratuitous like I feel it was in “Pulp Fiction”
For me, there is the question of what effect is intended.
In our modern culture – and even then, only in parts of it globally – it is considered the height of evil for the strong to take advantage of the weak. At least for the strong to openly and gratuitously take advantage of the weak. Obviously, using a lot of bureaucracy and litigious means, the entire society is all about the strong taking advantage of the weak.
But in a fictional story, when a strong character assaults a weaker (and therefore “more innocent”) character, you hate that character.
This, of course, was not true for most of the history of stories. The Iliad, the Odyssey, Gilgamesh, etc. The heroes of these stories would be villains in any modern setting. However, the real life leaders and heroes of ancient times were, of course, horrible, horrible people – Ramses, Alexander, Genghis Khan and even up to Napoleon, to be honest, even into the modern era.
Real life, though, is not a story and I still don’t understand why people try to make some fundamental or significant connection between fiction and actual reality. A character is not a person. Real events do not follow the rules of a plot. People do not have story arcs, they have lives. The morality of a fictional story is not ethical instructions for real life. No matter how much a person might like WALL STREET the movie, it really had about as much to do with actual corporate business experiences as HILL STREET BLUES actually had to do with the real NYPD. The stories are intentionally manipulated to heighten the drama, while in real life, we all aim to diminish the drama in our lives… unless you are like Alexander, Genghis Khan, Napoleon…
In the end, of course, there is no good argument for the general exclusion of anything in a story. If a person doesn’t like the elements in a comic book, don’t read it. Or don’t see that movie. More importantly, don’t spend any money on it, because that is what really makes the difference. The creative teams and companies producing the material follow the money, so it is really the paying public that determines what content succeeds and grows and what content disappears.
However, don’t expect one person’s personal tastes to matter to the people behind the media when there are dozens more paying for what they are putting out there. The puritanical zeal of a minority of people often rises in the face of the popularity of material that they object to, so it ends up that rather than simply not consuming the material, they go on a mission to make sure no one can read it.
Even when the story is based on real people and events, there are substanstial changes so viewers have an easily digestible narritive. Actual characteristics and settings are dropped or merged with others or new things added that never existed simply for the sake of a coherent plot. Even those that do strive for authenticity will fudge the facts to tell a story within the confines of the medium. Throw in that if the people being portrayed are still alive, that opens a completely new set of problems.
Cracked posted this yesterday: 4 Reasons Music Biopics Are A Nightmare to Make
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Promethea was fairly mature but not ultraviolent.
Promethea is interesting because while it does have adult content its themes are almost the polar opposite to work like Watchmen. Rather than deconstruct superheroes it revels in the mythology and builds it up. There’s the odd sexy or scary bit but it’s not gritty in any way.
In Watchmen we get the template of a fantastical Blue Beetle character but transposed into the ‘real world’ where we’re shown actually he’d get out of breath and be a bit nerdy about birds and clumsy when having sex with a new partner.
In Promethea we get the normal unenthusiastic teen in a flawed world but the reality is magic and legend. The Kaballah lecture is saying no the world isn’t flawed and mundane it is really incredible and more than we imagine.
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Nudity and sex is an interesting area in US TV. In western Europe every country sits in a single time zone so most have operated with some level of what is called ‘the watershed’ in the UK. A cut off point in the day where the kids are sent to bed and adult content is allowed, since around the late 1960s.
Little did parents in the 1980s know that teen boys who who were the only ones in the family that properly knew how to set the VCR could program it to tape the ‘red triangle’ sex movies on Channel 4 that aired at midnight and watch them later on a tape they marked ‘FA cup final’. 😂
So from afar it seemed the network/cable split in the US encouraged the cable guys to be a bit gratuitous in a way British TV wasn’t. As recently as early Game of Thrones I have read of producers at HBO and Cinemax being encouraged to show a lot of flesh to differentiate their offering. The ‘sexpostion’ of a strip club in The Sopranos or brothel in GoT.
I think with streaming now being basically unregulated that urge may die off and it’ll be more about the story than ‘it’s cable, put some tits in because we can’.
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Back to the black heroes with only electricity powers
https://screenrant.com/miles-morales-thor-variant-social-media-backlash-marvel/
It also doesn’t help for the Asgard to be “Hood-like” and Morales to have a “blaccent” and shouting
“Hammer time” with graffiti all over the mjolnir.
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That is interesting for the people that grew up with Thor from the Jack Kirby/Stan Lee original. He was the God of Thunder, not lightning. His powers were essentially superstrength, flight and hitting people with a hammer. I honestly can barely remember Thor ever using lightning when reading the comics growing up.
Same for Captain Marvel/SHAZAM actually. He would use lightning to transform, but he never generated electrical charges until very recently in the history of the character. And, honestly, I find lightning conceptually to be very different from electrical or electronic powers. Like the difference between being hit by a bolt of lightning versus shot with a taser. It would seem very out of place for Thor to use lightning powers to hack a robot villain’s CPU, for example.
Also, I never liked the idea that Mjolnir turns people into Thor. Thor is a person with a father and mother and his own character. It’s like if you gave someone your favorite screwdriver, then they would suddenly turn into you. It’s identity theft!
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I don’t think the writers necessarily need to be black but if you are going to take that angle – you should really know your stuff. I am amazed that book got past editorial, it makes me cringe to read, let alone an African American.
You could take as an example Ms Marvel. G Willow Wilson is a white American, albeit a convert to Islam, but on the Pakistani element she had a lot of contact with her editor who was from that background.
We’re also faced with the mixed race dilemma again, something close to my heart, where in theory almost nobody can have ownership. Miles is half Hispanic yet that is seemingly ignored. This will be a bigger issue as time goes on as that population both increases and gets more muddled down the generations. The Ben Kingsley/Krishna Panjit issue.
It’s nowhere near as contentious or sensitive but as a Welshman it reminds me of the contrast in comics depictions of us. Grant Morrison in Zenith named a character ‘Siadwel’ a name that doesn’t exist outside a comedy sketch, the whole thing is awfully done, he references stuff like daubing road signs that hadn’t happened for 20 years and the dialogue is awful. Kieron Gillen though wrote Pixie as a Welsh girl in X-Men perfectly, the slang she uses is spot on, I couldn’t have done better myself.
I can never know what work went on behind the scenes but one looks lazy and one looks well researched/assisted.
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I have to add that it would be related to the themes of genuineness and authenticity
I get the point Denzel made about Speilberg doing Schindler’s List and Scorcese doing Goodfellas.
Otherwise… Do you really want to see Mickey Rooney again as an Asian in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” 😒
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Do you really want to see Mickey Rooney again as an Asian in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” 😒
No.
You are right authenticity is the key. Being so precious you can’t ever step out of your own experience is a path to segregationist writing. Shakespeare was not a Danish prince and if everyone was asked to ‘stay in their lane’ we would have even less diversity. Which is fundamentally an issue as the world is increasingly diverse.
If I had to write my memoirs and I’m not from a big city upbringing but I could not write, even before I moved to Asia, an account that was all white to be safe from criticism. I’d have to write women in 50% of the parts too.
The job is if you step outside your upbringing you do it right.
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Same for Game of Thrones or The Boys now on Amazon – or Ennis’ other show Preacher when it was on. Arguably, the television series are more over the top at times than the comics.
Yeah but the thing is, all of those shows you mentioned are good beyond the over the top theatrics… You could easily remove all the sex and violence and you’d still have amazing shows with incredible talent behind and in front of them.
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Yeah, I agree they could have been good and even great without graphic sex and violence BUT we all know good and even great is not enough to set a series apart.
However, in both cases, especially the Boys, the graphic nature is an essential element. It sets Game of Thrones apart from LOTR. The Boys uses it to make it clear that these are not comic book superheroes, they are dangerously unstable super weapons. Bombs that move around and keep going off. You can say that in many ways but simply showing it happen has a lot more impact.
also, it gets the audience and media talking which then gets more people watching. The purely artistic elements of a show or movie are not the only things that brings people to it and keeps them invested.
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What is your definition of “segregationist” and as you posted elsewhere “neo segregationist”?
Ok so it’s relatively simple. If you end up in a scenario where the author must come from a similar background to the characters for authenticity then it’s not a scenario where diversity can exist. You’ll have black fiction, white fiction, Asian fiction etc. You don’t get X-men and even if sometimes that is imperfect it is better that than the alternative of everyone staying in their lane and only writing about their specific community.
Even if it comes from a positive place, moves like that can end up with very negative results. An interesting case is Christopher Priest who set to quit writing comics because Marvel and DC would only assign him black characters, he cancelled his retirement when a DC editor called him and asked if he’d want to do Deathstroke.
As you said in your last line: The job is if you step outside your upbringing you do it right.
Exactly and that Miles story was doing it very wrong.
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I wouldn’t want to live in a world without Vanilla Ice. It would be too boring.
Again, let the audience decide. Essentially, there is no good way to censor material that won’t eventually be abused. The best way to handle it is individual choice.
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His family moved to England, where he pretty much grew up.
To be fair he is very British.
Boris Johnson was born in New York, we’d love to ship him back.
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Still, these are “ideal circumstances” but there is no way to ensure they could be carried out in reality. First, obviously, there is the question who came up with the idea. If it was the guy writing it “poorly” – in whomever’s opinion – that originated it, imagine saying, “that’s a great idea but you’re too white to write it.”
Then, imagine after doing that, you go to some other writer and tell them “we’re gonna take you off whatever you’re working on and put you on this other project because you’re much better for it than the guy who came up with the idea.”
”Okay, uhm, sure,” the prospective new writer says, “but what makes me better than the guy who came up with it?”
”You’re black.”
Honestly, these are tight deadlines so really not much time to course correct especially when readers are always complaining the loudest about late books. It’s more practical to publish and let the readers responses tell you what you need to do for the next issue.
Or probably let a bunch of guys that didn’t and will never read it but can complain about it on social media and the internet tell you what to do.
That’s not ideal but is realistic.
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Andrew Garfield was born in Los Angeles, CA and holds both US and UK citizenship. His family moved to England, where he pretty much grew up.
Happy Birthday, Todd!!
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