Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker SPOILER discussion

Topic

With this on the way in a matter of days, and spoilers starting to leak out into the mainstream, we should probably have a dedicated discussion thread for it.

Looking forward to seeing it.

Replies

SteveUK wrote:

That’s a valid choice, but so was trying to keep her character as/at the heart of the resistance.

I also think their hands were tied slightly by the approach taken by the previous two movies.

Giving Han a major role in TFA and then killing him off, and then doing the same for Luke in TLJ makes me think they were probably planning to do the same for Leia in the final movie.

They chose to stick with that plan as best they could in ROS, given the obvious limitations. Killing her off at the end of TLJ was an option, but I assume they wanted to keep their options open at that point. Killing her off between movies, off-screen, or even writing her out as being elsewhere entirely, might have felt as clunky as having the footage repurposed in ROS felt – all of these choices serve as obvious reminders of her real-life death.

Ultimately we have to acknowledge that Fisher’s death was unexpected and – once you put aside the more important aspect of the sadness of her passing and the impact it had in real life – it caused a real problem for these movies. Any choice they made would have highlighted the fact that she was dead and so couldn’t properly appear in the final movie as they had wanted.

In the end I wonder if they made the right decision, but just executed it a bit cackhandedly.

Didn’t the Emperor return off-screen?
 
Anyways, I find it super creepy that they’re using a dead person’s likeness, fuck the fans if that’s what they want… it’s one thing if an actor dies just before a release, but this was not the case… the fact that Disney’s the first to do it is not surprising. Unless Fisher explicitely gave her permission for them to do so, this is just wrong… and people should put an end to this right now ’cause it’s only gonna get worse with better technology.
 
I guess actors are gonna need to add new clauses to their contracts, although I guess that already kinda happens with likeness clauses for merch and products, but still… =/

paul f wrote:

It sounds like some people from ILM read Terrio’s interview and were not happy with it .

Not impossible, or someone else in the Disney hierachy who’s not a fan of honesty in interviews.

Those were hard shots, whether you’re ILM or not. The ones in the film weren’t totally consistent anyway. If they had the balls to leave out some really dodgy ones that’s a good thing, it’s a pity if they have to hide it to present an appearance of being infallible, but that’s business.

Jon wrote:

Didn’t the Emperor return off-screen?
 
Anyways, I find it super creepy that they’re using a dead person’s likeness, fuck the fans if that’s what they want… it’s one thing if an actor dies just before a release, but this was not the case… the fact that Disney’s the first to do it is not surprising. Unless Fisher explicitely gave her permission for them to do so, this is just wrong… and people should put an end to this right now ’cause it’s only gonna get worse with better technology.
 
I guess actors are gonna need to add new clauses to their contracts, although I guess that already kinda happens with likeness clauses for merch and products, but still… =/

My impression was that Fisher had already signed up for the movie intending to be in it, that her family was happy with the route Disney ultimately took, and that the whole thing was legally watertight.

It’s fine to be uncomfortable with it as a viewer, as I was, but I’m not sure we should start inventing legal barriers or hurt feelings that probably don’t exist. Fisher had already signed off on CGI-Leia in Rogue One after all.

Anyway, this whole thing has reminded me of Gladiator a couple of decades ago, and how they had to work with what Oliver Reed had partially shot on that movie to complete his character’s story. They did a good job with it and made it work well, but I guess they had a lot more footage to work with in terms of him having already shot quite a bit of his role.

It’s been ages since I watched Gladiator – I should give it another look.

They rewrote the film after he died, but they were re-writing it anyway, he was meant to be involved in the plot right to the end of the film. I believe his later scenes (or their intent anyway) were shared between Connie Nielsen and Djimon Hounsou and maybe Derek Jacobi a bit?

Proximo rediscovering a sense of purpose and self-sacrifice was suggested by William Nicholson, who was hired to be the new guy who could see the wood for the trees basically.

The shots would be a pain today, back then it was cutting edge. They used a body double a lot and only showed Reed’s face when they absolutely had to,

While the results will continue to be contentious, both estates signed off the way SW asked to use both Fisher and Cushing’s image in both films.

I can’t see even the most tone-deaf film company not doing that.

Ben wrote:

While the results will continue to be contentious, both estates signed off the way SW asked to use both Fisher and Cushing’s image in both films.

I would also add for those who haven’t actually seen the film the Leia appearance is the vast majority footage from TFA, even if superimposed in places. There is a very brief flashback Rogue One type scene of a younger Luke and  Leia but other than that it is not the digital recreation like we saw with Tarkin in that film.

I thought it all looked natural enough to me, the issue was more with the dialogue, because she’s using lines from another film it doesn’t feel like she’s having conversations with the others but rather issuing random statements they react to.

garjones wrote:

I would also add for those who haven’t actually seen the film the Leia appearance is the vast majority footage from TFA, even if superimposed in places.

It’s all superimposed.

Fisher hated the costume they gave her for TFA, so they changed it for TLJ, and the outfit in this movie is closer to that.

Which is fine but I was just clarifying that her face isn’t a CGI recreation which is what Jon and Ben seemed to be getting out of the conversation.

Which helps quite a bit as talking of R1 in the conversation too does tend to lead to the conclusion of CGI.

Looks like the net has gone nuts over Boyega taking the piss out of Reylo on Twitter.

Dave wrote:

Ultimately we have to acknowledge that Fisher’s death was unexpected and – once you put aside the more important aspect of the sadness of her passing and the impact it had in real life – it caused a real problem for these movies. Any choice they made would have highlighted the fact that she was dead and so couldn’t properly appear in the final movie as they had wanted.

In contrast to others’ impressions, my feeling was also that they deliberately put her in the centre of the movie to do right by the character and the actress. Considering how difficult it must’ve been to get those dialogues anywhere near right at all (and they still were pretty bad), it must’ve been a pain to do it this way and not get rid of the character, and putting her centre stage in the movie like they did, with a lot of shots that were meant to somehow connect her to what was going on when it wasn’t really necessary (and that didn’t really work) was a decision that felt like it was made less for the needs of the story and more in an effort to honour Fisher and Leia.

May not have worked; it certainly wasn’t for the better of the movie. But I do believe that that may have been the intention.

Should probably be taken with many, many grains of sand, but:

Here’s what I’ve been told from a source that worked on TROS. from saltierthancrait

It has been odd to see both Oscar Isaac and John Boyega basically using the press for the movie to throw Disney under the bus.

Release the Abrams cut!

That reads like a real mix of truth and absolute bollocks

I’m not saying that companies can’t be petty, they’re made up of people, but the idea that Disney would spend time trying to make Abrams look bad while, at the same time, trying to sell tickets for ‘The Rise of Skywalker’ and secure the future of the Star Wars IP in all it’s forms, including the billions they’re spending adding versions of Galaxy’s Edge to their theme parks…? That would be beyond petty. It would be insane!

But a lot of the plot and character stuff may well be accurate. The fact that it was cut or changed is just how all these films are made. Abrams came from TV and has done a range of franchise projects. He knows how it works and what he signed on for.

DavidM wrote:

Release the Abrams cut!

Release the Iger and Kennedy cuts!

Anonymous wrote:

DavidM wrote:

Release the Abrams cut!

Release the Iger and Kennedy cuts!

Release the Kraken!!!

‘Rise of Skywalker’ Editor Opens Up on Rushed Production, Agrees Film Is Fan Service

“We were definitely still trying to figure out a lot of stuff,” Brandon said about the sped-up editing process. “It’s a struggle. It affected everything. About a third of the way through, [Lucasfilm president] Kathy [Kennedy] was like, ‘JJ has got to spend more time in the cutting room.’ And I knew that wasn’t going to happen. Not with the schedule that we were on. Not with what he was dealing with on a daily basis…he was just exhausted at the end of the day.”

–

According to Brandon’s estimates, the “Rise of Skywalker” crew had three months less to work on the latest “Star Wars” movie than was the case for “Force Awakens.” Disney set a December 20, 2019 release date for the movie that could not be moved, forcing Brandon to edit on set so that the production schedule was maintained.

A lot of panicking people out there.

SteveUK wrote:

That reads like a real mix of truth and absolute bollocks

It does. And while I can imagine there being some truth to a lot of what is said, if you look at the actual scenes described there… I don’t know, man. I doubt that ROS would’ve been a better movie if it’d been three hours long with scenes with Kylo in slow motion and in quiet reflection, or if we’d actual seen an army of Jedi ghosts (I hope that one isn’t true).

Going back to that Reddit post, it’s been updated yesterday;

 

For those asking how I verified who this source was: I know their name. I have seen their business card and ID badge. I have seen documents, folders and forms related to their work, including non-SW projects. I have seen photos taken at studios and events, some complete with EXIF data, that correspond to established production timelines. I have seen bank statements confirming production related activities. I have seen correspondence between my source and others at this company. In total, I felt I had enough to make a post on reddit, based on the source alone.

 

Ok, this is getting into “call the lawyers” territory now. Bank statements? Production paperwork? Emails? You leak confidential information you’re really risking your career.

For those asking how I verified that SteveUK is actually famed wrestling legend Stone Cold Steve Austin: I have seen Stone Cold Steve Austin’s business card and ID badge. I have seen documents, folders and forms related to Stone Cold Steve Austin’s work, including non-Stone Cold Steve Austin projects. I have seen photos taken at matches and events, some complete with EXIF data, that correspond to established Wrestlemania timelines. I have seen bank statements confirming wrestling related activities. I have seen correspondence between Stone Cold Steve Austin and others at this Wrestlemania.  In total, I felt I had enough to go on to make this post on the Carrier.

SteveUK wrote:

Going back to that Reddit post, it’s been updated yesterday;

 

For those asking how I verified who this source was: I know their name. I have seen their business card and ID badge. I have seen documents, folders and forms related to their work, including non-SW projects. I have seen photos taken at studios and events, some complete with EXIF data, that correspond to established production timelines. I have seen bank statements confirming production related activities. I have seen correspondence between my source and others at this company. In total, I felt I had enough to make a post on reddit, based on the source alone.

 

Ok, this is getting into “call the lawyers” territory now. Bank statements? Production paperwork? Emails? You leak confidential information you’re really risking your career.

“A lot of people are asking about the veracity of the information I asked you to take on faith was genuine.  Well, I have a ton of proof that it’s genuine, take my word on it”

I’m just gobsmacked that someone would think to post bullshit on Reddit.

This is really going to damage Reddit’s reputation as a source of 100% reliable information.

To be fair Lorcan that is a real mountain of evidence he’s not sharing with anyone.

Are you sure it’s not just a molehill?

Anonymous wrote:

For those asking how I verified that SteveUK is actually famed wrestling legend Stone Cold Steve Austin: I have seen Stone Cold Steve Austin’s business card and ID badge. I have seen documents, folders and forms related to Stone Cold Steve Austin’s work, including non-Stone Cold Steve Austin projects. I have seen photos taken at matches and events, some complete with EXIF data, that correspond to established Wrestlemania timelines. I have seen bank statements confirming wrestling related activities. I have seen correspondence between Stone Cold Steve Austin and others at this Wrestlemania.  In total, I felt I had enough to go on to make this post on the Carrier.

I won’t believe anything until I see the DNA report.

Yeah everyone knows SteveUK is John Cena.

SteveUK wrote:

You leak confidential information you’re really risking your career.

What happened to those extremely strict and harsh Star Wars NDAs? I remember back on the old site when people would talk about how Sanjay  had to keep quiet or suffer severe penalties.

He still has the implant.

Rocket wrote:

SteveUK wrote:

You leak confidential information you’re really risking your career.

What happened to those extremely strict and harsh Star Wars NDAs? I remember back on the old site when people would talk about how Sanjay  had to keep quiet or suffer severe penalties.

They’re still there and the person on Reddit is lying for social capital

Rocket wrote:

SteveUK wrote:

You leak confidential information you’re really risking your career.

What happened to those extremely strict and harsh Star Wars NDAs? I remember back on the old site when people would talk about how Sanjay  had to keep quiet or suffer severe penalties.

That’s the “risking your career” bit.

lorcan_nagle wrote:

They’re still there and the person on Reddit is lying for social capital

Entirely possible.

rory wrote:

Yeah everyone knows SteveUK is John Cena.

Actually Meryl Street. At the weekends anyway.

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Rocket wrote:

SteveUK wrote:

You leak confidential information you’re really risking your career.

What happened to those extremely strict and harsh Star Wars NDAs? I remember back on the old site when people would talk about how Sanjay  had to keep quiet or suffer severe penalties.

They’re still there and the person on Reddit is lying for social capital

Well then at least we know it can’t be Sanjay because as a former Millarworlder he has all the social capital he needs.

SteveUK wrote:

Actually Meryl Street.

Cousin of Lois Lane.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Imperial Star Destroyer…. Freudian Nightmare

TRoS is about to cross $1B globally, but domestically it’s about to fall behind Rogue One: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdown/sd2117858820/?metric=grossToDate&view=byDayNum

It’s currently at $478.1M; at the same point in its release, Rogue One had made $477.3M. I can’t see TRoS making the $55M needed to pass Rogue One’s domestic total.

Huh? 478 is more than 477.

Yeah, but it’s catching up. It’s $1M ahead this weekend, it was $27M last weekend, and $75M the weekend before. By next weekend, it’ll be behind.

Ouch.

Kind of satisfying though, I loved Rogue One – easily the standout addition of all the new stuff.

I guess Rogue One got a decent lift from TFA before it. Whereas this movie is following the polarising The Last Jedi and the indifference-inducing Solo. In that context it’s maybe surprising it did as well as it did.

Also: Rogue One was good

Not really though, but it had some good stuff in it. TROS will do plenty of money, which is all Disney cares about. It’ll be interesting to see how well the next one does… but considering the very low bar you need to make fans happy (Mandalorian) it should also be fine…

A draft of Treverrow and ‘s Connolly script (written a week before Fisher’s death) leaked online: https://news.avclub.com/turns-out-colin-trevorrows-version-of-star-wars-episod-1841002112

Much of the story is different, with characters like Zorii Bliss and adorable internet fave Babu Frik absent, but the most notable absence is Emperor Palpatine. The late Sith lord does appear in Trevorrow’s script, but not as a living (or whatever the hell it was in Rise) entity. Like Abrams’ version, Kylo Ren travels to Mustafar, but Trevorrow’s script actually follows him there and shows the audience what he’s been up to while Rey tries to figure out if she’s worthy of being a Jedi or if Jedi should even be a thing anymore. While Kylo searches Mustafar for a Sith “Holocron”—an artifact that will aid his nefarious plans—he’s tormented by the Force ghost of Luke, who taunts him with lines like, “This is where the dark path leads: an empty tomb.”

The Holocron opens to reveal a hologram of Palpatine, apparently leaving his last will and testament to Darth Vader. Should Luke kill the wrinkly old space wizard, Palpatine says Vader should take the young Skywalker to see Tor Valum—the Sith master who taught Palpatine everything he knows. Throughout Duel Of The Fates, various characters attempt to reach Kylo Ren and bring Ben Solo back into the light. General Leia remains skeptical, but Rey believes that anyone can change; she tells Finn that his actions proved this.

Meanwhile, Kylo tracks down Tor Valum, who turns out to be a 7,000-year-old (extremely Adam Driver voice) ghoul described as “Lovecraftian” in appearance—a note that should make everyone shriek with grief at the lost possibility of something so fucking cool. Anyhow, Kylo Ren trains with Tor Valum, confronts a Darth Vader phantom, loses, and stomps and broods his way over to Rey. There’s also a cool bit somewhere in there where the Holocron wounds Kylo’s face, which is repaired with smelted Mandalorian armor.

As many fans speculated/hoped, this iteration of Episode IX would have seen Rey and Kylo working from similar motives, with both characters fighting against the binary ideologies that have governed their world for ages. Ultimately, unlike Rise, Rey’s attempts to coax Ben Solo out of his Kylo Ren angst helmet fail, and he is “extinguished”—but not before revealing that he killed Rey’s parents (who were, indeed, “nobodies”) on Snoke’s orders.

There are several other key points, including Chewbacca flying an X-Wing, the Resistance gang stealing a Star Destroyer, and a droid described as being similar in appearance to Darth Maul (again, cool). Of course, Trevorrow’s movie might not have been “good” by whatever metric you use (this is the same auteur behind The Book Of Henry, after all), but there are some great ideas and concepts here, including the aforementioned ancient Lovecraftian Sith ghoul whose name sounds like a Norwegian black metal album.

Not great, and I’ve yet to be impressed by Trevorrow as a director, but it sounds better than what we got. Also, this draft would have been probably almost two years out from filming, so some stuff would have changed anyway.

paul f wrote:

sounds better than what we got

Except for a major issue:

 

paul f wrote:

internet fave Babu Frik absent

It sound’s like it follows the ideas in The Last Jedi to their natural conclusions, rather than immediately rowing back on them. Who knows how it would have turned out but I like the sound of it in theory.

I swear I posted a legit-and-totally-not-at-all teasing response to Gareth …

… but it’s not here …

Dave wrote:

It sound’s like it follows the ideas in The Last Jedi to their natural conclusions, rather than immediately rowing back on them.

To an extent. I mean, it doesn’t seem to be getting away from the binary stuff in the end anyway; the logical conclusion of LJ would probably have been Rey and Kylo telling everybody to fuck off and getting a room.

The symopsis at least also sounds very dark; the key difference in the stories seems to be that Kyle does change in the movie we got, and to be honest I think that’s the better choice. Depressing cynical ending for Ben Solo seems like something that maybe appeals to the adult Game of Thrones fans that used to like Star Wars when they were kids, but not to the audience Disney is actually mostly aiming for today.

Pics from TRoS art book showing stuff not in the movie, including more from a less cartoony Dark Rey:

tros artbook#ReyandKylo #reylo pic.twitter.com/mVb7wfhYoL

— 💜Reylo&Army💜 (@JadoreReyBen) January 16, 2020

Also, this thing:

Rise of Skywalker? More like Attack of the Memes!

So when does this bastard hit Disney+?

So I just watched this… yup, pretty bad.

It’s barely a movie… it’s more like a sequence of action pieces badly strung together and a lot, and I mean A SHIT FUCKIN LOT of horrible, cringy, predictable, cliché, dumb dialogue… holy shit… I thought the prequels had it bad…

Other than that, yeah the plot is just, I don’t even know what hell that was… lots of unnecessary contrivances and contraditctions… should’ve been called Rise of the McGuffins & the Side Quests.

Eh, I guess everyone’s already said everything there is to say about this, so I’m not gonna bother. My final observation is: It kinda sorta looks a bit like Infinity War or Endgame, in terms of pacing and structure, in that it’s no really structured as a movie, but rather like a second act (and rushed 3rd act) of a saga, but it just doesn’t work in this instance, because they obviously don’t have 20 movies behind them building up to this… I mean, they have 8 movies behind them, sure, but they’re barely connected and the Last Jedi is like completely unconnected to this… so, no it just doesn’t work.

Anyways, that’s that. Mediocre end to a mediocre trilogy in what to me has always been a mediocre saga, but hey, I respect that it somehow has millions of fans… so what do I know…

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DavidM

I finally got around to watching this. All it took was a global pandemic. This was the first of the Star Wars saga films that I didn’t bother going to see in the cinema. Honestly, that’s probably more to do with TFA than TLJ. I came out of the former underwhelmed at the prospect of rehashing the same beats as the original trilogy. I saw the latter really just as an excuse to catch up with some old friends but it just seemed like a mess – and the reaction to it online made me roll my eyes at how absurd the treatment of this franchise had gotten. Someone put it best when they said the sequel trilogy was about Star Wars movie fandom rather than actual Star Wars movies.

And, yeah, more of the same here. Maybe it works well for ten year-olds, who knows? The slapdash rush from scene to scene to scene to OMG moment to OMG moment certainly feels as though it was written by one. And if it works well for kids, hey, great, that’s what it was meant to be about in the first place. Unfortunately, the kids also have to deal with all these shuffly old people who keep turning up to complain about things and then die and then still come back to talk about boring grown-up stuff. I can’t imagine it holds their interest anywhere near as well as something fresher like the MCU movies.

Really, this whole idea of a sequel trilogy was ill-conceived from the start. We already got the happy ending in ROTJ, only now it achieved nothing and so seems entirely futile. The logical follow-up of seeing what the beloved characters did next and how they ensured the Republic/Jedi retained control over the Empire/Sith was skipped entirely. We just learned that they ballsed it up, got miserable and died. We got a bunch of new characters that it is hard to imagine anybody giving a shit about decades from now (with the probable exception of Rey). Half-measure after half-measure. It needed to either recast Luke, Leia and Han and follow up on ROTJ or to break free from the Skywalker family drama and present an entirely new story.

Being capable of writing a cohesive story would also have been welcomed. Obviously there is a disconnect between the approaches taken by Abrams and Johnson but even just taking this movie in isolation little of it makes any sense. The logic holes have been thoroughly well-documented already and often boil down to the ten year-old writer’s answer of “a space wizard did it”. They are best represented by the repeated point about Finn having something he needs to tell Rey but then doesn’t. That’s inexcusably bad writing, even for a movie about space wizards.

Oh, and speaking of space wizards, let’s not forget that it is now canon that Palpatine had sex. Maybe if they had gotten the guy laid he would have chilled out a bit instead of diddling himself with his lightning fingers.

And yet they still couldn’t just let Finn and Poe kiss at the end. Rey and Kylo can because, yeah, he’s a psychopath who killed his father but he’s got a hot bod.

At least they stopped short of having Lando turn around to Finn’s Girlfriend and announcing he was her grandfather.

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Will_C, DavidM, lorcan_nagle

saga wrote:

We got a bunch of new characters that it is hard to imagine anybody giving a shit about decades from now (with the probable exception of Rey).

Yeah Rey seems to have really broken out, against all the odd and Disney’s expectations (remember #WheresRey?).

Her and BB8, and that’s about it?

Honestly, the most wasted character was Finn, he had the most promising arc at first, and then they did NOTHING with him… sad… doesn’t help that I never really gave a shit about either Rey or Emo boy…

Jon wrote:

Honestly, the most wasted character was Finn, he had the most promising arc at first, and then they did NOTHING with him

I feel like Finn was a bit like Han Solo in that his arc was really completed in one movie, and they had to keep him occupied with love-interest stuff and busywork after that.

True, although at least with Han they picked a love interest and stuck with it and made it seem meaningful. They did the exact opposite with Finn. If the (for some reason) unspoken idea for him was that he can sense the Force that makes his character an even bigger waste as there is a ton they could have done with that concept. Imagine if Rey and Kylo and the Skywalker bullshit all canceled itself out and failed to save the day and then Finn digs down deep inside himself to rise up and save the day. The idea that any one of us could be the hero would have been a powerful message. But they backed away from that same idea with respect to Rey’s family heritage and never even really tried with Finn.

I think the theories about the complexity behind the scenes have covered a lot of this.

Abrams had an idea of who Finn was and what he could become, but then he left, and Finn became baggage rather than a protagonist. His life and its complexity became a setup for what the new management cared about; the grey moral areas of the galactic arms trade. Something that Lucas hadn’t dealt with, even in his economics-orientated prequel trilogy.

Finn had a great potential arc; a child soldier finding a place and purpose for himself. He could have been something far beyond a space wizard fantasy movie series. He could’ve been more real.

But who wants that?

If anything, The Rise of Skywalker should dispel the notion that Star Wars is better when they dive into it without a plan (OT vs PT).

The sequel trilogy was an absolute shitshow from beginning to end.

The prequels, as awful as they were, at least had a story to tell. The sequel trilogy serves no purpose whatsoever.

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Will_C, Todd

You mean other than $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$… right? xD

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Todd, DavidM, njerry

Jon wrote:

You mean other than $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$… right? xD

If they had done it right, they would have made more money and not poisoned the franchise.

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Uncle Retrospective

I saw this video of a chinchilla doing crazy jumps and it reminded me of Yoda in Attack of the Clones.

 

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njerry

Attack of the Bones

 

My two cents on this movie: I would’ve walked out when they ran into and healed the sand-snake if I hadn’t had a date.

It’s a movie with lots of cool shots, and good sound design on the force lightning, but everything else, especially storywise? It’s downright awful. It’s worse than the shitty bits from TPM and AOTC combined.

I hate this movie. I tried rewatching it (a pirate’s life for me!) when it was out on bluray but it couldn’t be done. What a shitshow.

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Will_C, Todd

The whole sequel trilogy is a shitshow.

There’s no vision behind it, there’s not story. It’s just Disney crapping out vapid sequels written by tv hacks that rehash the plot points of the six movies that came out before.

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Todd

Jason wrote:

The whole sequel trilogy is a shitshow.

100% agree in that the trilogy as a whole is… not whole. There’s no trilogy, it’s just three movies. They really shit the bed not outlining this trilogy before they jumped into production.

For all their faults, I really like both Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, though. Both of them have… something. Different things, surely, but they were, at least to me, very enjoyable. TFA has some joyous energy that really gripped me from the get-go. One of the best cinematic experiences I’ve ever had. But what the hell do I know, maybe it was the drugs? I still like it though, through all its faults.

TLJ disappointed me somewhat at first, but it has really grown on me during repeat viewings. It’s probably one of the movies I’ve seen the most times, and it only came out what – three years ago? It looks really good. It has the best acting of the trilogy (and I realize that isn’t saying a lot). It was one of those few movies where I literally had no idea what was going to happen next.

But TROS? There’s nothing there but plot holes and bullshit. It has all the faults of the previous movies, and none of the good stuff. The lack of a planned out trilogy fucks over the movie in a way even George Lucas wasn’t able to accomplish. Cool visual effects is not the same thing as a beautifully shot movie. Random mumbo-jumbo is not the same thing as suspense. And, possibly the biggest nitpick of all time, HER NAME IS AHSOKA TANO, NOT FEMALE JEDI #WHATEVER! I hate Disney for the same reason I love the MCU. Coherence.

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Todd

I think the saga as a whole actually ends more satisfyingly if it finishes with The Last Jedi and you ignore Rise of Skywalker altogether.

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Uncle Retrospective

That’s actually a pretty good idea. A bit open-ended with the conflict ongoing, and an inconclusive character arc for Driver, but… Better than what happened next, defo.

Yeah, it’s not ideal but the idea of the conflict being eternal and never-ending fits Star Wars fine I think, plus it leaves all the Rey stuff cleaner and gives her more purpose for the future, resolves Luke’s arc and heavily suggests he’ll still be a presence in future, and opens up the door for a brand new New Hope to emerge years down the line.

Kylo Ren is left dangling a little bit, but the implication is that Luke’s ghost will hang around to keep him in check.

Basically, I think what we can imagine happens next from the end of TLJ is better than what we got.

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Will_C

Dave wrote:

I think the saga as a whole actually ends more satisfyingly if it finishes with The Last Jedi and you ignore Rise of Skywalker altogether.

It really works best if it ends with A New Hope and you ignore everything else that it lost up its own arse.

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DavidM, Todd

Rise of the Skywalker being so lacklustre has all-but guaranteed my prediction that within 10 years conventional wisdom will be that Empire and Last Jedi are considered the best two Stars War will come true.

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KandorLives, Todd, Uncle Retrospective, Dave

The Last Jedi could’ve been a really bold move for the franchise and it could’ve been REALLY good… buuuuuuuuuuuut, I’m gonna have to blame Rian Johnson on that one, because while he had some good ideas, it seems he bailed on them himself. Like he didn’t really believe in them and just said “nah, just kidding” at the end of the movie. It was sooooooo frustrating watching the movie basically undo everything it had been building up to that point… it’s like… why did I just waste my fucking time if the end result was just getting back to square one? ugh…

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Uncle Retrospective

lorcan_nagle wrote:

that Empire and Last Jedi are considered the best two Stars War

The others will thenceforth be known as Sars Warts

saga wrote:

Dave wrote:

I think the saga as a whole actually ends more satisfyingly if it finishes with The Last Jedi and you ignore Rise of Skywalker altogether.

It really works best if it ends with A New Hope and you ignore everything else that it lost up its own arse.

It really works best if the film ends after C3PO and R2D2 wander out into the desert to die, and this whole mess never happens.

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Rise of the Skywalker being so lacklustre has all-but guaranteed my prediction that within 10 years conventional wisdom will be that Empire and Last Jedi are considered the best two Stars War will come true.

Why would that be the case when there are at least two – I would say three – Star Wars movie that are clearly better than Last Jedi?

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DavidM

Christian wrote:

I would say three

The holiday special doesn’t count, Christian.

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Christian, njerry, lorcan_nagle

Christian wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Rise of the Skywalker being so lacklustre has all-but guaranteed my prediction that within 10 years conventional wisdom will be that Empire and Last Jedi are considered the best two Stars War will come true.

Why would that be the case when there are at least two – I would say three – Star Wars movie that are clearly better than Last Jedi?

Mark my words, the Last Jedi renaissance has already begun. A lot of people who didn’t like it have already reassessed their opinion.

I can barely remember it.

No joke. I’ve shunted it to some remote part of my brain, so it doesn’t annoy me again.

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Todd

SteveUK wrote:

I can barely remember it. No joke. I’ve shunted it to some remote part of my brain, so it doesn’t annoy me again.

That’s a queue for a rewatch if I ever heard one.

 

In all seriousness though, I remember when I was rewatching BVS I kept thinking “Why am I doing this to myself” and I still rewatched the whole movie. Twice.

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lorcan_nagle

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Mark my words, the Last Jedi renaissance has already begun. A lot of people who didn’t like it have already reassessed their opinion.

Yeah, just like with BvS and Prometheus. I am sure in fifty years, it will be shown side-to-side with A Clockwork Orange and The Great Dictator.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

In all seriousness though, I remember when I was rewatching BVS I kept thinking “Why am I doing this to myself” and I still rewatched the whole movie. Twice.

In all seriousness though, I’ll never get tired of watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

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garjones, Christian

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Christian wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Rise of the Skywalker being so lacklustre has all-but guaranteed my prediction that within 10 years conventional wisdom will be that Empire and Last Jedi are considered the best two Stars War will come true.

Why would that be the case when there are at least two – I would say three – Star Wars movie that are clearly better than Last Jedi?

Mark my words, the Last Jedi renaissance has already begun. A lot of people who didn’t like it have already reassessed their opinion.

It’s probably because RotS was such a shitshow and TFA was pretty bland.

Todd wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Christian wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Rise of the Skywalker being so lacklustre has all-but guaranteed my prediction that within 10 years conventional wisdom will be that Empire and Last Jedi are considered the best two Stars War will come true.

Why would that be the case when there are at least two – I would say three – Star Wars movie that are clearly better than Last Jedi?

Mark my words, the Last Jedi renaissance has already begun. A lot of people who didn’t like it have already reassessed their opinion.

It’s probably because RotS was such a shitshow and TFA was pretty bland.

That’s a big part of it, yeah.  People who were upset at it for it not following up on Force Awakens in the way they wanted are reassessing the film as its own entity. Kinda how people who were mad at Empire began to like it more as time went by.

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Todd

Todd wrote:

RotS was such a shitshow

Whaat? It’s the only watchable prequel! (Besides Rogue: One and Solo, but they’re spin-offs rather than prequels)

RotS- Rise of the Skywalker, not Revenge of the Sith

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Todd

Rocket wrote:

RotS- Rise of the Skywalker, not Revenge of the Sith

Internet has taught me it’s TRoS, since the title is The Rise of Skywalker.

Wouldn’t it be more simple to call them by their numericals? =/

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DavidM, Todd

Internet arguing was never about simplicity. It’s about being right validated, no matter the cost!

And let me be first to validate that you are indeed right. It would be more simple.

[DavidM]

Jon wrote:

Wouldn’t it be more simple to call them by their numericals? =/

Yes.

1. Star Wars

2. The Empire Strikes Back.

3. Return of the Jedi

There’s no way this system could ever confuse anybody

• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by DavidM.

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Todd

DavidM wrote:

Yes. 1. I – Star Wars 2. II – The Empire Strikes Back. 3. III – Return of the Jedi

Fixed. I know it’s early, but come on David…

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DavidM

I. Star Wars

II. Star Wars Holiday Special

III. Empire Strikes Back

IV. Return of the Jedi

V. Caravan of Courage

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Todd

Through the years I think less and less of Empire Strikes Back. I think the only great SW movie is the first one, ESB and ROTJ are enjoyable but flawed.

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DavidM

Dave wrote:

I. Star Wars

II. Star Wars Holiday Special

III. Empire Strikes Back

IV. Return of the Jedi

V. Caravan of Courage

Don’t forget Battle of Endor!

And really, Splinter of a Mind’s Eye should be in there, and maybe the Marvel comics with the rabbit in them

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Todd, Dave, DavidM

Anonymous wrote:

Through the years I think less and less of Empire Strikes Back. I think the only great SW movie is the first one, ESB and ROTJ are enjoyable but flawed.

Finally, someone who shares my opinion!

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Dave wrote:

I. Star Wars

II. Star Wars Holiday Special

III. Empire Strikes Back

IV. Return of the Jedi

V. Caravan of Courage

Don’t forget Battle of Endor!

And really, Splinter of a Mind’s Eye should be in there, and maybe the Marvel comics with the rabbit in them

I considered giving the Kenner toy commercials their own entry.

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Todd

Anything that canonises that line of small one-figure vehicles is OK in my book

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Todd, Dave

Anonymous wrote:

Internet has taught me it’s TRoS,

as in A(TRoS)ity?

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Todd