Random Comic Related Things

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#639

BBC Radio 6, 19:00 tonight (Friday 4th):

The legendary comic book writer shares two hours of his favourite music and chats to producer and writer Richard Norris about the important part it’s played in his life and work.

Expect tracks from Captain Beefheart, Joni Mitchell, X-Ray Spex, The Residents, Patti Smith and Sleaford Mods. Plus some of the music he’s made himself over the years.

See if you can guess who it is before you click the link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008yp0

Then Sunday at 13:00, is this one easier to guess?

The author of **** amongst much else, picks some of the music that’s shaped him. With tracks from Bowie, Dusty Springfield and Tori Amos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00093q6

  • This topic was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by DavidM.
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  • #30772

    I’ve heard of this before. It was previously spun as something along the lines of “Watch out for the DH who bites.”

    It’s mentioned in this interview from 2006 — a decade before his behavior became public knowledge, and he was let go from his editorial position — on the Dark Horse website (which they recently took down, but is still available at archive.org):

    https://web.archive.org/web/20081010005747/https://www.darkhorse.com/Interviews/1386/Interview-With-Scot-Allie-Horror-Editor-10-25-06

    “Daring.” “Visionary.” “Nervous.” “Watch out, he bites.” These are just a few of the terms that have been used to describe Scott Allie, the editor of Mike Mignola’s Hellboy, B.P.R.D., Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Serenity, Conan, oh heck, you get the idea. We had a chance to sit down with Scott and discuss the many great things happening with the Dark Horse Horror line in 2007.

     

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Jason.
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  • #30806

    This, from Mike Mignola:

    http://artofmikemignola.com/?fbclid=IwAR22ZacftG5Zi4-YPF4Lu1U-ZrL4ckZjXMF_1dHLURBuA5vnGiDjZqwaeeQ

  • #30844

    And this, from Mike Mignola:

    Around this time I started to hear rumors of other past incidents—alcohol-fueled behavior that seemed limited to drunken, juvenile pranks. There was nothing specific and I never heard the names of any specific persons involved in these other incidents. I continued to write these off as just more of his stupid drunken episodes. I became aware that some people did not like working with Scott. While our working relationship had always been good I know his editorial style could be aggressive and off-putting and I honestly believed this, coupled with the past drinking problem, was the reason for the trouble. The truth of course is that after a very long and very productive working relationship I did not want to believe there was anything more to these stories. I was blind because I wanted to be blind and that’s on me and it’s something I have to live with.

    Well, at least that sounds like an actual apology and in line with what Guy Davis has been saying, I think (there was a quote here where he said Mignola knew what was going on years ago, I think).

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  • #30855

    I have a question.

    What’s missing from this discussion so far?

  • #30857

    Look, not everything has to be about Man Of Steel.

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  • #30861

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  • #30882

    Never mind.

    I thought someone would’ve noticed. Guess not.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
  • #30947

    What is it?

  • #30951

    I took Bernadette’s comment to be a reference to the lack of female voices in the conversation so far.

    Which is fair, if so – this is a largely male forum after all – but I think somewhat mitigated by the fact that people have made efforts to repost and link to the original accounts made from the women who have suffered harassment in these situations, rather than put it in their own words or put their own spin on it.

    I would hope that the conversation isn’t being conducted in a way that excludes women, but please let us know if you feel like anything in the conversation has done that, Bernadette.

    We might be a mostly male membership but I don’t think anyone wants to make this a male-only conversation and I’m sure everyone would welcome a female perspective,  especially if you feel that’s been overlooked so far.

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  • #30961

    What is it?

    More female voices.

    There’ve only been a couple here.

    3 users thanked author for this post.
  • #30962

    Ooops. Apologies, Dave.

    I read Christian first.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
  • #30963

    No apologies necessary.

    I’m sorry if initially responding to your post with a joke felt dismissive of your point – I didn’t mean it to be, but looking back it comes off like that.

    What’s your take on all this Bernadette?

  • #30964

    What is it?

    More female voices.

    There’ve only been a couple here.

    Because there’s only a couple of women here. I’ll grant you that’s regrettable in and of itself, but I’m not sure what you want or expect. Us to all shut up and ignore because we’re not women? To bus in some more people just to ask them about this?

  • #30965

    I think part of the point is that the comments and statements reposted here, beyond the original one from Shawna Gore, have been mostly by men. Davis, Mignola, Ellis etc.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
  • #30966

    Yeah, I guess this thread is more reactive, and outside of the few tweets and statements from female voices initiating the discussion that have been linked to here, there haven’t been that many female reactions.

    There is obviously parallel discussion to all of this going on throughout social media, and while I’m not very present there what little I’ve seen of female voices responding has been largely very supportive.

  • #30967

    What is it?

    More female voices.

    There’ve only been a couple here.

    Because there’s only a couple of women here. I’ll grant you that’s regrettable in and of itself, but I’m not sure what you want or expect. Us to all shut up and ignore because we’re not women? To bus in some more people just to ask them about this?

    I wasn’t asking for anything.

    It was merely an observation.

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  • #30971

    I enjoy your observations and would like more, particularly on these topics.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
  • #30979

    Man of Steel wasn’t so bad. I still maintain his boots were the wrong colour.

    Prometheus had some pretty visuals and some grand ideas. It could’ve been something special with a few tweaks here and there.

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  • #30980

    Not those topics. I’ve read enough about those topics to last a lifetime.

  • #30987

    What is it?

    More female voices.

    There’ve only been a couple here.

    Because there’s only a couple of women here. I’ll grant you that’s regrettable in and of itself, but I’m not sure what you want or expect. Us to all shut up and ignore because we’re not women? To bus in some more people just to ask them about this?

    I wasn’t asking for anything.

    It was merely an observation.

    It was a pretty pointed one. To take Gar’s interpretation of your issue (which you haven’t disputed, so I assume is correct) if you think there needs to be a bigger, broader female perspective on this issues in this thread, you’re free to post and link to more of it yourself. I don’t think anyone’s tried to exclude or minimise female perspectives on this – I’ve linked/embedded plenty myself, alongside those of people directly related to the Allie/Mignola issue who, yes, are men – but sure, maybe there isn’t enough. If you think there’s something we should read and consider, post it. same as anyone else would and has.

    Regardless, I don’t see what good aloofly sitting on the side ambiguously sniping does anyone.

  • #30990

    I don’t know if that’s the beneficial position to take, Martin.  Far be it for me to criticise you for a knee-jerk reaction (or indeed a thoughtful one), for which I have been known to make many (and thoughtful ones much fewer), but I think Bernadette’s voice here really needs to be heard more than any other posters. To do that will be harder if she also has to make her sound while taking a defensive stance.

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  • #30998

    I haven’t responded to Gar directly because I was taking my time. I didn’t want Dave or Anders to think they’re being dismissive with jokes because I know they’re not so I addressed that first.

    I wouldn’t know how to snipe.

    I’ve already commented on this upthread as far as I felt able to. I started to write more then changed my mind. It’s a distressing topic.

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  • #30999

    Feeling unsure what to say about all this is a position I can definitely empathise with.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    Ben
  • #31002

    I haven’t responded to Gar directly because I was taking my time. I didn’t want Dave or Anders to think they’re being dismissive with jokes because I know they’re not so I addressed that first.

    I wouldn’t know how to snipe.

    I’ve already commented on this upthread as far as I felt able to. I started to write more then changed my mind. It’s a distressing topic.

    If, or whenever, you feel comfortable to do so, I would like to hear more.

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    Ben
  • #31007

    Subject to the same conditions as laid out by him, I have to second m’Learned friend’s suggestion.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
  • #31014

    Regardless, I don’t see what good aloofly sitting on the side ambiguously sniping does anyone.

    Can we dial the tone back a lot here please? It’s fine to disagree but keep it civil. Especially in a sensitive subject like this.

     

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  • #31020

    I’m conscious of not wanting to push Bernadette specifically to comment further, especially given the conversation so far, and the potential weight of expectation on her to have to offer “the female perspective” in this thread, as one of our few female posters.

    But I will say that I would welcome any input from female posters on this issue, recent developments on this front in comics, and how it has all played out.

    It’s true that comics is still a very male-dominated medium and views on it are too often funnelled through a male perspective. Even if well-meaning in response to issues like this, that perspective could often do with being tempered by another point of view.

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    Ben
  • #31069

    Technically, the video below concerns the gaming industry, with a couple of mentions of wrestling, but I still think it has some relevance to the discussion here.

    Nor is it your usual Jimquisition, absent are the savage one-liners and polemic invective; no, this is a rather more serious and sober Jimquisition, but it also feels a necessary watch:

    2 users thanked author for this post.
  • #31071

    Wow, nothing in Jim’s posting history suggested that’s how he dresses.

    4 users thanked author for this post.
  • #31109

    I still maintain his boots were the wrong colour.

    We should introduce you to this guy, Michael.

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  • #31111

    I still maintain his boots were the wrong colour.

    We should introduce you to this guy, Michael.

    A man with a very singular vision of Superman that defied logic and reason.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
  • #31118

    I still occasionally come across his name in social media discussions of comics. He hasn’t changed, still banging on about the same things.

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  • #31123

    Look, if I was Michael Shannon, I’d still be complaining about that neck snap too.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
  • #31130

    He left such an impression on me. I still remember his name, which is more than I do of some more regular posters that have left over the years.

    edit: Remember self-deception man? Fun times.

  • #31192

     

     

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  • #31336

    Steve Ditko (on the right, of course)

     

    Fuckin’ shots fired!

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  • #31342

    Ha!

  • #31438

    DHC lose Aliens and Predator to Marvel:

    https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/marvel-alien-predator-aliens-comics-franchise/

    There can’t be much left to raid at DHC now.

  • #31439

    An interesting aspect (since it was pretty inevitable Fox properties would move) is how Marvel are going deeper in with ‘licensed’ material. We had Star Wars, the Conan and the Aliens and Predator news comes after Kieron Gillen said yesterday he’s writing a Warhammer 40k book for them.

    They’ve not really had a roster of non Marvel Universe stuff like that since the 80s when they had Star Wars, GI Joe, Micronauts, Rom, Indiana Jones etc.

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  • #31450

    DHC lose Aliens and Predator to Marvel:

    https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/marvel-alien-predator-aliens-comics-franchise/

    There can’t be much left to raid at DHC now.

    So we’ll finally get a Wolverine vs. Predator fight?

  • #31454

    DHC lose Aliens and Predator to Marvel:

    https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/marvel-alien-predator-aliens-comics-franchise/

    There can’t be much left to raid at DHC now.

    They really don’t have much outside of Mignola’s Hellboy, which is a bit of a poisoned chalice at the moment.

    I don’t think Aliens and Predator had been big sellers for them for quite some time. I’m sure they will start out strong at Marvel like Star Wars did.

    I think we have discussed this before but is there really any big IP that will sell very well in comics that’s available? I’ll look through Previews and see smaller companies with licensed material that may be niche at best? I wouldn’t be surprised if the margins are pretty thin on those books.

    Dark Horse has seemed to survive during its history off of licensed material. They never seemed to fill the void caused by the loss of Star Wars. Losing Aliens and Predator now with the economy in shambles due to a global pandemic can’t be good for them. I get the feeling that the license was up and Disney pulled in it “in-house” to help bolster Marvel Publishing.

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

  • #31455

    Stuff at DHC:

    • Berger Books
    • Mignolaverse (but currently looking very, very dodgy)
    • Black Hammer

    ….. Er….. Think that’s about it?

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  • #31462

    Stuff at DHC:

    Berger Books
    Mignolaverse (but currently looking very, very dodgy)
    Black Hammer

    ….. Er….. Think that’s about it?

    What about SIN CITY? Oh, wait… Hey, there’s Allred’s MADMAN COMICS…um… USAGI YOJIMBO? JOHN BYRNE’S NEXT MEN?

    Damn.

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  • #31463

    They have Stranger Things which looking at the IVC2 Top 500 sales is doing significantly better numbers than their latest Predator book. A lot of video game stuff, Witcher, Last of Us, Tomb Raider etc Rick and Morty and Adult Swim too.

    Star Wars was a blow, I’m not that convinced with Alien and Predator, they’d maybe run their course. Looking at the numbers going with some more recent properties may better for them.

     

     

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  • #31506

    When Marvel got the Conan the Barbarian license back, the first thing they did was put Conan in an Avengers book. How long before a Predator hunts down Wolverine, or Spider-Man stumbles upon a nest of Alien eggs?

  • #31508

    We’ve already had Superman vs Aliens and Batman vs Predator…

  • #31510

    Both of which were superb crossovers.

    Batman vs Predator was written by Dave Gibbons, and had fantastic artwork by the Kubert brothers. #2 had one of my favourite comics cliffhangers ever.

    The two follow ups by Doug Moench & Paul Gulacy (BvP II) and Chuck Dixon & Rodolfo DiMaggio (BvP III) were a lot of fun too, and tied into 1990’s Bat-Continuity.

    Superman vs Aliens by Dan Jurgens and Kevin Nowlan was a pretty creepy tale, that felt remarkably true to both franchises. The sequel was more batshit crazy with Darkseid and the New Gods playing along too.

    Let’s not forget the rather nice Batman vs Aliens by Ron Marz and Bernie Wrightson.

    If Marvel can produce some good crossovers, with respectable creative teams such as these, I’ll be quite excited.

    I’m also hoping to finally get a decent Colonial Marines series out of this!

     

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  • #31511

    When Marvel got the Conan the Barbarian license back, the first thing they did was put Conan in an Avengers book. How long before a Predator hunts down Wolverine, or Spider-Man stumbles upon a nest of Alien eggs?

    I’ll give you hint, the first Predator promo image has him standing on top of the Avengers logo.

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  • #31785

    Why Christopher Priest Wants to Be Known as a Writer – Without Qualifiers

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  • #31786

    Why Christopher Priest Wants to Be Known as a Writer – Without Qualifiers

    Very interesting. He does not mince words about his experiences.

    I was somewhat surprised, and at the same time not, at the sexist-racist-antisemitic jokes that were supposedly around Marvel.

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  • #32360

    Some interesting comics sales statistics for 2019:

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  • #32364

    Comichron’s sales stats are fascinating to look through.  They don’t have the height of the boom, but you can go through the monthly sales figures in the late 90s and see them drop off. Really interesting to see the number of books tracked and the sales per unit for the number 1, number 300 and number 500 comic each time.

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  • #32476

    This is a razor sharp analysis of harassment and abuse within the comics industry and how it’s baked into industry norms:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/warren-ellis-cameron-stewart-and-the-storm-of-sexual-misconduct-allegations-roiling-the-comic-book-industry?ref=scroll

    “The companies see talent as disposable, because so many people want to break into comics,” Seidman said. While some individuals at a given company might fight for a creator, the corporate structure as a whole is completely unaccountable. “There’s no shortage of people to fill spaces. Once you get past the people they really want to keep because they mean sales, they don’t give a fuck.”

    Economic exploitation creates the conditions for sexual exploitation to flourish, and the comics industry as it currently exists cannot address the one without tackling the other. Sexual harassment, in all its various forms, is not simply a social problem; it is theft—of a victim’s time, dignity, of their ability to create work in peace and pursue financial or social opportunities. Moreover, it is theft of a creator’s ability to pursue a livelihood in their chosen field. Harassers don’t simply prey on those made vulnerable by precarity: they actively make the spaces and institutions they inhabit more precarious, and keep workers disorganized and afraid to the company’s financial benefit. Think of it, if you like, as grooming on a grand scale: the cultivation of a workforce that can be trusted to go along with sexual and economic exploitation—to grin through clenched teeth, to say nothing out of fear—and drive out those who can’t.

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  • #32481

    “The companies see talent as disposable, because so many people want to break into comics,” Seidman said. While some individuals at a given company might fight for a creator, the corporate structure as a whole is completely unaccountable. “There’s no shortage of people to fill spaces. Once you get past the people they really want to keep because they mean sales, they don’t give a fuck.”

    Similar to the issues in other arms of the entertainment industry where powerful and/or popular people like Louis CK or Bryan Singer can prey on unknowns.

    (edit to clarify who is preying on whom)

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by lorcan_nagle.
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  • #33177

    Blow the whistle, become the problem – hence it’s barely even the tip of the iceberg. STFU and be grateful. I mean, pause and think about the language from the wrong kind of company’s point of view. HR = human resources. They don’t see people as anything other than an expendable resource.

    Are you not entertained? 

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  • #33309

    as an employee, you are told if you have a problem, go talk to HR. They present HR as the place that will help you and that is on your side. They encourage young people who want to help people to go into HR. WHAT A load of SHIT! It is right there in the name -Resources. They view you as a commodity. I grew up in a town that was taken care of by George Eastman and his company, Kodak. There was Eastman Savings and loan, Eastman Dental, Eastman School of music,… etc.  My dad and thousands of other people were employed by Kodak. I am amazed as a child how well they did at taking care of their employees. Back then HR WAS involved in taking care of people. Then their business took a huge hit and the beloved company name became a curse word.  and Businesses began to neglect their #1 resource. Now HR is full of people with fake smiles and reports to manipulate so the bosses always have the upper hand in meetings with employees. but don’t mind me. I was just blindsided and railroaded out of a job by a HR manager. I am biased and not completely over the experience so forgive the rant.

    TL/DR if you don’t want to hear about how HR are demons used by management to keep the little man down.

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  • #33310

    TL/DR if you don’t want to hear about how HR are demons used by management to keep the little man down.

    Shoulda told me at the start, you communist!

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  • #33478

    It is right there in the name -Resources. They view you as a commodity … Back then HR WAS involved in taking care of people.

    In the UK, Human Resources used to be called “Personnel”. I am convinced that things were better in those days (yeah, yeah, I know :P ) and started going downhill when Personnel rebranded itself as “HR”.

  • #33490

    From Cracked:

    Writer Warren Ellis Is A Creep, But His Victims Don’t Want To Cancel Him

    But the point of that site (https://www.somanyofus.com/)isn’t to get Ellis fired from all his jobs and launched out of town on a trebuchet. They don’t want his books to be pulled and burned, because that would harm the other artists involved … and, you know, a lot of them are actually pretty good. Whenever something like this happens there’s an impulse to say “Well, I never liked his work!” as if that meant anything — Woody Allen wouldn’t be less of a creep if he was still making funny movies, guys. They won’t let Bill Cosby out of prison if you admit Ghost Dad is a masterpiece. Let’s not kid ourselves, it is.

    No, what the SoManyOfUs website seeks is to 1) prevent more people from being groomed and manipulated, 2) support those harmed by Ellis’ careless digital philandering, and 3) let the rest of us know that this is a thing that happens so that we learn to recognize (and hopefully stop) it. They even say they’re open to joining forces with Ellis to raise awareness of this problem.

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  • #33529

    Well, that website is very interesting for a deeper look into the kind of stuff Ellis was up to – there’s a description of his methods in grooming these women and there are a lot of testimonials describing what was going on from the woman’s perspective. Little bit of it is enough for the moment though; it’s not exactly fun to wade through this.

    A website exclusively dealing with one man’s actions seems a bit strange, but I suppose it’s a good thing that they’re being proactive in dealing with the aftermath, and supporting each other and women who may be in similar situations with other men.

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  • #33560

    Well, that website is very interesting for a deeper look into the kind of stuff Ellis was up to – there’s a description of his methods in grooming these women and there are a lot of testimonials describing what was going on from the woman’s perspective. Little bit of it is enough for the moment though; it’s not exactly fun to wade through this.

    A website exclusively dealing with one man’s actions seems a bit strange, but I suppose it’s a good thing that they’re being proactive in dealing with the aftermath, and supporting each other and women who may be in similar situations with other men.

    I find it very positive that they want to work with him to raise awareness of problems like this, not just cancel and forget.

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  • #33592

    Recent commission by Walt Simonson:

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  • #33817

    Disappointing that ComiXology appear to be skipping the SDCC sales this year, even though virtual Comic-Con’s are happening. Appears like a missed opportunity.

  • #33819

    The latest in Comicsgate controversies:

    I have to admit, I’m finding it hard to pin down exactly what Comicsgate is. Sometimes it seems to be creators who are actually guilty of some quite nasty transgressions around racism, sexism etc. and other times it simply seems to be those with vaguely right-wing political views.

    Is it a coherent group in any way, in terms of having an organised collective and specific goals and aims? It mostly seems to me to be a loose umbrella term for a lot of people who seem to self-identify as dicks.

    But I’m not sure whether that’s enough to try and boot them off a job like this. What has Jae Lee done to warrant this (genuine question) – is it just that he’s worked with people affiliated with this group?

    (Also it’s pretty funny to be taking a moral stand like this over a Rorschach book. For lots of reasons.)

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  • #33829

    It’s info from Bleeding Cool but it seems:

    – Jae Lee isn’t on social media

    – Was unaware of the whole comicsgate activity

    – Has now declined cover requests from comicsgate creators.

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  • #33830

    So Tom King has got duff intelligence from somewhere? What was his previous job again? :unsure:

    Either way, I do think this all demonstrates the risk that those people engaging heavily in this stuff on social media see everything through this Comicsgate lens, which seems a bit nebulous and ill-defined to me, other than being a label for a bunch of arseholes.

    I also don’t really follow the logic that working with someone necessarily means you align with them politically.

    The Dynamite stuff seemed to be a case of there being a sufficient weight of evidence against them that made their actions look ill-considered at best, but something like this – if it is just a misunderstanding and Jae Lee isn’t aligned with these people in this way at all – is risking careers over weak inferences and gossip, because people are determined to view everything in light of comicsgate affiliations.

    Also, how far does the idea of guilt by association extend? Is DC Comics now a Comicsgate publisher because it has worked with Lee and other creators associated with that movement?

    Comics by their nature are collaborative and if you count enough degrees of separation you could lay these kinds of accusations at the feet of any creator, surely?

    Ultimately, if having at some point worked with assholes in the comics industry means you’re out of a job then it feels like the whole industry would collapse.

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  • #33831

    There’s an assumption of knowledge and net literacy that, in this case, wasn’t so.

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  • #33855

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  • #33865

    Which is all well and good, but maybe he should have done that first, before publicly throwing him under the bus on twitter.

    I do wonder why these comics professionals do this stuff through Twitter. It’s an odd way to settle a work disagreement.

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  • #33885

    In this case I think King ballsed it up completely by not checking but I do get the public element to a degree. It’s less a work disagreement and more disassociating himself from any connection with Comicsgate as he will get called out on it if he hadn’t already.

    It’s a weird world though because the whole Comicsgate thing and the fervent opposition to it exists entirely in a very small sphere of the internet. It’s comics Twitter and a handful of Youtube videos. It’s really easy if you just pick up comics or trades to read to be completely oblivious to its existence, as Jae Lee seemingly was.

     

     

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  • #33887

    I count myself among those pretty oblivious to it, as evidenced by my confusion here when the topic recently came up!

    Even once I looked into it, it seems like a pretty ill-defined collective, and ranges from nasty business around sexism, racism and abuse to much milder transgressions that don’t amount to much more than being outspoken about holding right-wing political views.

    I do think there’s a risk attached to seeing all actions in the comics industry through this lens and reading-in intent where it doesn’t exist, as the truth is the vast majority of people’s work has nothing to do with comicsgate.

    I think Tom King should have been more cautious before dragging Jae Lee through the mud publicly over this. And Lee deserves more of a public apology from King than he got.

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  • #33888

    I do get the public element to a degree. It’s less a work disagreement and more disassociating himself from any connection with Comicsgate as he will get called out on it if he hadn’t already.

    Called out over writing a book that features a variant cover by an artist who once worked with another writer linked to Comicsgate!

    This is the the world we live in, I guess, but it’s coming to something when a writer feels the need to badmouth another creator in public on no factual basis because he’s worried about this kind of accusation.

    The comicsgate lot seem like dicks, but so do the people seeking to “expose” connections as tenuous and meaningless as this.

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  • #33889

    A public apology he’ll never read as he doesn’t do the internet and social media. 😂

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  • #33894

    A public apology he’ll never read as he doesn’t do the internet and social media. 😂

    Unfortunately Jae Lee being off Twitter doesn’t stop it from damaging his reputation and career. The apology is more needed to address that than his own personal feelings (although hopefully King has apologised privately too).

     

  • #33896

    I’m just looking at the irony that the whole scenario is basically because he’s completely detached from those forums.

    I’m generally quite conflicted on these issues to be honest. Is Twitter that important? Either the Comicsgate rhetoric or what Tom King says. Should they be confronted or we just pretend they don’t exist and don’t feed the oxygen of what can be a very circular debate? I don’t know.

     

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  • #33899

    Is Twitter that important? Either the Comicsgate rhetoric or what Tom King says. Should they be confronted or we just pretend they don’t exist and don’t feed the oxygen of what can be a very circular debate? I don’t know.

    It’s a good question.

    In terms of my own personal judgement, it isn’t very important and doesn’t influence my feelings on the comics themselves one way or another. I don’t feel like these factions hold much meaning for me: I’ll continue buying Tom King’s work because he’s a very good writer, and I’m also happy to have bought work by (say) Elizabeth Breitweiser, who I know has been named as part of the comicsgate group, as she’s an excellent colourist. The work is all that really matters to me – I can’t think of any example of comics being enhanced by knowing the creators’ political affiliations, the work should speak for itself.

    But if the goings-on of Twitter can lead to people losing work and suffering reputational damage on the basis of false allegations that they’re completely oblivious to, then I think we have to say that there is some degree of importance there, whether we like it or not.

  • #33919

    It’s this weird thing that has cropped up across video games, films, tv, games for the last few years.  I’m convinced it’s the same small group with internet megaphones behind all the carping because it’s always the same complaints.  It’s always about “forced diversity”, it often involves internet mobs harassing women or ethnically diverse creators for – wait, for it – telling stories about people other than white blokes.

    At the same time demands for better representation in the stories pop culture spins has increased.  It does change fast, can be hard to keep up with, but neither is the core idea that hard to grasp.

    Where it goes into very treacherous waters is when you get the big companies co-opting it, which there have been some quite visible cases of.  Marvel’s diversity changes of a few years, done with the subtlety of a sledgehammer and the same level of understanding, being one of them.  They clearly wanted to engineer more Ms Marvels, but didn’t understand that it didn’t work that way.

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  • #33921

    Where it goes into very treacherous waters is when you get the big companies co-opting it, which there have been some quite visible cases of.  Marvel’s diversity changes of a few years, done with the subtlety of a sledgehammer and the same level of understanding, being one of them.  They clearly wanted to engineer more Ms Marvels, but didn’t understand that it didn’t work that way.

    Then comes the ‘eternal victim’ syndrome though because Marvel returned all those leads to the original characters (as anyone sensible knew they would) but did any of their campaigning stop? Not in the slightest. Bear in mind this movement started with someone getting upset at a photograph of a group of female marvel staff enjoying a milkshake after work. The only message being made was “This is why your comics are shit: women”.

    There’s no real reasoning going on after a while, even if some on the fringes may be more reasonable.

    Make no mistake, Tom King fucked up here, he jumped to conclusions about Lee’s motivations and spewed it out on social media without doing due diligence. Which is an eternal problem with social media, why Laura Kuenssberg reports a Tory candidate has been punched in the face when he hasn’t, something they wouldn’t put into a BBC news report without checking. However it is a fairly small sin, and one corrected, compared to astroturfing every  innocuous tweet from a female or LGBT creator until sometimes they just have to quit the platform.

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  • #33922

    I don’t think anyone here would hesitate to condemn the hardcore comicsgaters who express repugnant racist and sexist views. They are clearly arseholes who act out because they want attention for their own brand of shitbaggery.

    But I think problems come when those people committed to calling out this behaviour then start going after their associates, and then associates of associates. How far do the degrees of separation extend for someone to become tainted by this if they’re not affiliated with comicsgate (slightly formless movement as it is) themselves?

    King seems to have been motivated by a desire to distance himself from Lee because he thought he was going to be called out for associating with someone who had fairly recently done work with a prominent comicsgater, just because of a variant cover that person did for his Rorschach book.

    Even notwithstanding the fact that we now know that Lee doesn’t share or promote those views, is that reasonable? Would it have been a legitimate complaint if Lee had been more aware of comicsgate? Guilt by association for Tom King, just because Jae Lee drew a cover?

    Like I say, if that becomes a rule that publishers and creators feel they must follow, and working with arseholes makes you an arsehole, then the comics industry as a whole is pretty screwed, given how often different creators all work on shared books together. Is everyone who has worked with Warren Ellis now persona non grata? And then everyone who works with them? Is DC a “comicsgate” publisher for continuing to employ (say) Kenneth Rocafort? Where does it end?

    I feel like it’s a slippery slope, and that creators who are looking for work in an industry that’s suffering at the moment shouldn’t have to investigate the backgrounds of everyone linked to a job offer (which could be as small as drawing a variant cover) for fear of being tarred with the same brush and effectively blackballed.

    I get that people are motivated to call out this behaviour for positive reasons, but I think that sometimes these efforts are misguided and the wrong targets are selected.

    The intent seems to be to make people scared for their own job security if they agree at any point to work with someone publicly identified as holding these problematic viewpoints, and that seems like a rum business to me.

    I get that there’s sometimes an instinctive impulse to take one side or the other in these arguments, but I can’t help but look at both extremes and think it’s a bit of a mess. That’s not to say that both are equally bad, just that both are acting wrongly.

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  • #33924

    But I think problems come when those people committed to calling out this behaviour then start going after their associates, and then associates of associates. How far do the degrees of separation extend for someone to become tainted by this if they’re not affiliated with comicsgate (slightly formless movement as it is) themselves?

    I think the definition is slightly less opaque than that though. The main characters behind Comicsgate are self-publishers now, their stuff pretty much exclusively on crowd funding sites. The likes of Van Sciver and Richard Meyer. They are happy to be branded as part of Comicsgate and specifically say their work is driven by those ideals. Their Kickstarter totals suggest they are doing very well out of it too.

    The Dynamite controversy was because they were specifically working with one of those titles to provide a variant cover. People, unless they are completely of the grid like Lee should know the background behind these titles.

    That to me is different to having done work for hire stuff once with someone you disagree with politically. Van Sciver was always right wing and not shy about it and worked with people like Morrison and Simone who were aware but happy to agree to disagree. Since 2017 he’s kind of gone off the rails and instead of just holding different views has been strongly campaigning to halt diversity, sending things like celebratory tweets when G Willow Wilson said she was asked to go ‘pencils down’ during the initial lockdown. In fact he and Simone used to do a bit of a double act with podcasts and the like but that went sour when he made a 90 minute video attacking her: https://www.comicsbeat.com/this-stuff-all-sucks-gail-simone-responds-to-ethan-van-sciver/

    Is there a lot of scope for a slippery slope here, that it could become associates of associates? That a purity test is being set that few can achieve? Yes it’s always a risk but at the moment what I am seeing is more narrowed to those specific books. (Lee’s contribution was for a current Indie-Gogo funded Cyberfrog).

    Part of the reason I often wonder if they are just best ignored though is those books uniformly look absolutely terrible. Second rate 90s speculator era concepts often with amateurish art (Van Sciver’s art excepted, he can draw). In the end I’m not sure how sustainable it is to charge $20 a pop for awful comics that come out once a year at best but that’s of course very much personal opinion.

     

     

     

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  • #33941

    Yeah, that’s all fair. And I’ll admit to being ignorant of some of those details and not realising quite how well-defined the comicsgate movement is.

    Part of the reason I often wonder if they are just best ignored though is those books uniformly look absolutely terrible. Second rate 90s speculator era concepts often with amateurish art (Van Sciver’s art excepted, he can draw). In the end I’m not sure how sustainable it is to charge $20 a pop for awful comics that come out once a year at best but that’s of course very much personal opinion.

    I think there’s probably a very cynical motivation at work here, which is that the comicsgate crew have realised that – for now, at least – there’s a hardcore of rightwing comics fans who will pay for subpar books as part of showing their commitment to an anti-PC, anti-progressive cause. So they’re likely playing up their right-wing credentials to court that audience.

    How long that lasts remains to be seen I guess. If it collapses sooner or later then I can’t see the more extreme comicsgaters being welcomed back into more mainstream work.

    Crazy that EVS has gone from being such a prominent hot artist (with his Green Lantern hit run) to this in a few short years.

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  • #33943

    While we’re on the subject, this made me chuckle.

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  • #33979

    I think there’s probably a very cynical motivation at work here, which is that the comicsgate crew have realised that – for now, at least – there’s a hardcore of rightwing comics fans who will pay for subpar books as part of showing their commitment to an anti-PC, anti-progressive cause. So they’re likely playing up their right-wing credentials to court that audience.

    I think it’s a huge part of it and why people are so keen to try and cut them off. The controversy is driving the sales I think more than the content. Is it what drove the change in Van Sciver from a ‘respectfully agree to disagree’ stance with Simone on their politics before 2017 to actively attacking her? The rhetoric escalates to bring the cash in because the crowdfunders are supporting a cause more than the material.

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  • #33994

    Well, I am glad I can keep enjoying Jae Lee’s art without having that in my head. And Dave’s right, King should’ve checked first and apologised more clearly afterwards. On the other hand, I can’t say I disagree with taking a clear stance where activist groups like comicsgate are concerned. And one reason why I think that it is necessary for comics professionals to take a clear and aggressive stance against comicsgate that maybe hasn’t been mentioned yet is that one of the very clear purposes of comicsgate is online harrassment. Harrassment campaigns on twitter etc. is basically what they do.

    In terms of my own personal judgement, it isn’t very important and doesn’t influence my feelings on the comics themselves one way or another.

    It’s interesting where artists are concerned. With writers, I’d say the political views always influence the work on some level, and if those views become seriously problematic, you’ll probably notice. I know it’s why I stopped enjoying Frank Miller’s work when he went over the edge for a while (seems like he’s back to reationality again now). But the art is a different matter, obviously. So, yeah, I it’s got nothing to do with my enjoyment of the work. On the other hand, we are also a bit of a community and you can’t just turn off being interested in who these people producing this work are. It’s just a shame that sometimes, you’d rather forget it afterwards.

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  • #33999

    But the art is a different matter, obviously.

    Yeah well you carry on and put Hitler’s etchings up on your walls but I’m having none of it. 😂

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  • #34002

    With writers, I’d say the political views always influence the work on some level, and if those views become seriously problematic, you’ll probably notice.

    True, but again in that situation I’d generally rather let the work speak for itself, and not know what the writer’s politics are as there’s a risk of my interpretation being influenced by that.

    Having said that, in Miller’s case it was instructive to know about his thoughts and feelings over 9/11 and its aftermath before reading his Holy Terror. On a plain read it’s quite a nasty and unpleasant book at times – and while knowing more about Miller doesn’t change that, it does at least explain why he produced such a nasty and unpleasant book.

  • #34015

    Well, I am glad I can keep enjoying Jae Lee’s art without having that in my head. And Dave’s right, King should’ve checked first and apologised more clearly afterwards. On the other hand, I can’t say I disagree with taking a clear stance where activist groups like comicsgate are concerned. And one reason why I think that it is necessary for comics professionals to take a clear and aggressive stance against comicsgate that maybe hasn’t been mentioned yet is that one of the very clear purposes of comicsgate is online harrassment. Harrassment campaigns on twitter etc. is basically what they do.

    Plus, comics as an industry are facing up to the results of letting sexual abusers run rampant for literal decades and not calling them out.  And there’s plenty of evidence of what happens when you don’t call out people in your industry/subculture who support harassment campaigns, even tangentially. Maybe some people are being overzealous right now, but if that’s the case it’s an overcorrection.

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  • #34027

    Great conversation, guys. I think Tom King was a bit of a dick in this case, and his “apology” was anything but. Disappointing to see stuff like this happen, and I wonder if it strengthens people’s sympathies with the legitimate Comicsgaters when SJW’s go after the innocent like this.

    Anyways, having been into comics for as long as we have it’s bound to produce strange scenarios where creators you once adored, especially in the pre- internet age when all you could see was what was on the page without any context of their personal beliefs, suddenly come out with opinions you personally find quite difficult to accept.

    Chuck Dixon’s 1990’s Bat-books mean the absolute world to me. I adore his work with Tim, Dick, Connor and Cassandra, Lady Shiva, Bane, et al. There’s actually fair evidence of ethnic diversity there for the 1990’s!

    But, in recent years he’s come out as a hard Republican and proud Comicsgater (albeit far from as extreme as some of his compatriots).

    I don’t buy his work anymore, because it doesn’t interest me, but you won’t find me burning his books on a bonfire either.

    Strange times.

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  • #34067

    As a coda, it sounds like this has all been pretty rough on Jae Lee and came at a difficult time personally.

    View this post on Instagram

    Two weeks ago, June and I took Loki to San Diego to see a specialist. He did not survive due to complications from the surgery. This past Friday was supposed to be a day of mourning. We were back in San Diego to pick up his ashes. We were going to take him to the beach and comfort each other by sharing our favorite stories about our little boy. Instead, a part of the internet I avoid like the plague came barging in. I had companies I'm working for calling me, friends reaching out to me. I'm seeing hate pouring out of strangers' mouths, accusing me of things I have no knowledge of. I'm seeing first hand how fast lies are spreading. Let me be clear, I'm not part of ANY group. We never made it to the beach. We spent the entire six hour drive back home on an emotional roller coaster. I'm writing this because I'm angry. These irresponsible tweets are not harmless. They do not just go away. They have real world consequences. They can take away your job. Your life. Your memories. June and I were robbed of a special day. So, no, we're not "all good." This isn't the start of a conversation. This is the end. So please, don't drag me into a world I never wanted to be a part of, nor will I ever want to be a part of. I want to honor Loki by going back to producing art made with love. For people who enjoy it for what it is. Something that hopefully brings joy into their lives. Mommy and Daddy miss you so very much, Loki, our love.

    A post shared by Jae Lee and June Chung (@jaeleeart) on

    Two weeks ago, June and I took Loki to San Diego to see a specialist. He did not survive due to complications from the surgery. This past Friday was supposed to be a day of mourning. We were back in San Diego to pick up his ashes. We were going to take him to the beach and comfort each other by sharing our favorite stories about our little boy.

    Instead, a part of the internet I avoid like the plague came barging in. I had companies I’m working for calling me, friends reaching out to me. I’m seeing hate pouring out of strangers’ mouths, accusing me of things I have no knowledge of.

    I’m seeing first hand how fast lies are spreading. Let me be clear, I’m not part of ANY group.

    We never made it to the beach. We spent the entire six hour drive back home on an emotional roller coaster.

    I’m writing this because I’m angry. These irresponsible tweets are not harmless. They do not just go away. They have real world consequences. They can take away your job. Your life. Your memories. June and I were robbed of a special day. So, no, we’re not “all good.”

    This isn’t the start of a conversation. This is the end. So please, don’t drag me into a world I never wanted to be a part of, nor will I ever want to be a part of.

    I want to honor Loki by going back to producing art made with love. For people who enjoy it for what it is. Something that hopefully brings joy into their lives.

    Mommy and Daddy miss you so very much, Loki, our love

    I hope he at least gets some additional work offers out of this.

     

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  • #34068

    I suspect Jae Lee has more work offers than he has time to do, he hasn’t been that prolific in recent years but I think that’s his pace rather than lack of offers, he’s in the A list of most editors’ desired artists. I know he’s been on Millar’s ‘artist poach’ list for a decade.

    However on reflection reading that I agree King’s correction rather than apology wasn’t good enough, even if Lee doesn’t do Twitter himself the circle around him clearly does.

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  • #34084

    It’s true, the writers on this book were Frank Miller and Alan Moore (Moore even did the ‘news, reviews and features’).

    It lasted a mere 7 issues I think before merging into “Mighty World of Marvel’ but this book blew my mind. My copies are back at my mother’s house or I’d love to scan in some of the Moore text material. I remember he even reviewed either the first or second issue of Viz Comic (considered a fanzine at the time but went on to sell a million copies a month at peak).

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  • #34085

    I’ve been meaning to track down a set of those for a while – not for the comics so much as the extra content. I’ve read some of those text pieces but not all of them.

    I’m currently going through a bit of a phase of ticking off a few Alan Moore rarities that I’ve never read, so maybe I’ll grab them soon.

    This is my latest purchase – a vintage unread (for me, anyway) story by Moore and Bill Sienkiewicz feels like a real gift!

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  • #34087

    I’ve been meaning to track down a set of those for a while – not for the comics so much as the extra content. I’ve read some of those text pieces but not all of them.

    The thing I’ve found is old British comics don’t appreciate that much in value. I remember when trades of Zenith made before the fallout with Grant Morrison were on sale they went for over £150 each but the individual issues of 2000ad they were in were a quid each. I’m not sure where you’d find them nowadays though as a web search doesn’t like the title and just comes up with US Daredevil stuff.

  • #34089

    You can find them on ebay etc. when you search for “daredevils” in quotes, but yes the name doesn’t help!

    Unfortunately due to a lot of this text material being Alan Moore stuff that hasn’t been reprinted, they’re a bit pricier than most backissues of a similar vintage.

  • #34137

    I have to admit, I’m finding it hard to pin down exactly what Comicsgate is.

    It’s mainly a troll army – they’ll flood social media replies and YouTube comment sections rubbishing all comics bar CG, abuse creators and fans, and repeat their (false) motto – “Go woke, go broke”. They tried to get Erik Larsen canceled around the time James Gunn was removed from Guardians, but (probably because he’s small beans now) it didn’t get anywhere.

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  • #34143

    Yeah well you carry on and put Hitler’s etchings up on your walls but I’m having none of it. 😂

    It’s your loss, he painted some really pretty postcards.

  • #34144

    Tom King really screwed the pooch.

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    Ben
  • #34191

    Tom King really screwed the pooch.

    Yeah, the key phrase bobbing around on my reddit feed is Jae Lee saying ‘No, we’re not all good’.

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  • #34192

    I’m not sure where you’d find them nowadays though as a web search doesn’t like the title and just comes up with US Daredevil stuff.

    30th Century Comics had the full set:

    British Update: Festival of Britain! Daredevils – Moore & Davis’ Captain Britain, Night Raven and more

    Though it looks like they’ve sold a few, and what they still have ranges from £6 to £12 an issue (more than I’m willing to pay for a single issue):

    Marvel UK

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  • #34199

    They crop up regularly on ebay, but the prices can be silly sometimes. It’s easy enough to put together these sets if you’re happy to be patient though, as these comics always come along at a reasonable price eventually.

    Before Brought To Light, this was the last Moore set that I’d been gradually putting together.

    Again, it was just a case of waiting for copies at the right price.

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