Random Comic Related Things

Topic

[DavidM]

BBC Radio 6, 19:00 tonight (Friday 4th):

The legendary comic book writer shares two hours of his favourite music and chats to producer and writer Richard Norris about the important part it’s played in his life and work.

Expect tracks from Captain Beefheart, Joni Mitchell, X-Ray Spex, The Residents, Patti Smith and Sleaford Mods. Plus some of the music he’s made himself over the years.

See if you can guess who it is before you click the link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008yp0

Then Sunday at 13:00, is this one easier to guess?

The author of **** amongst much else, picks some of the music that’s shaped him. With tracks from Bowie, Dusty Springfield and Tori Amos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00093q6

• This topic was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by DavidM.

Replies

[Robbo]

Is it so hard to believe that she would use the relationship to get a leg up in her career? You’d have to be pretty naive to think that doesn’t happen, not that I’m saying that’s necessarily the case here – I don’t know and neither do you. West’s statements are fairly nuanced and balanced. She believes Ellis shoulders the majority of the blame but not all of it. To quote directly from her “Warren Ellis is undoubtedly a force for good in comics, and has been for the last twenty years or so. He’s given opportunities, money, and support to marginalised creators in comics and outside it. He’s also done some fucked up things to young women. Both statements can be true.” and also “He doesn’t need to be cancelled or whatever. Instead ask how we get to a point where successful men don’t prey on young women, maliciously or not. A point where those young women see the attention of men like that as damaging and not flattering. How do we change that culture?”
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All industries have an unbalanced power dynamic and there’s always the possibility of someone taking advantage of it. The system needs changing but I don’t see it happening in the short term.

 

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Robbo.

Martin Smith wrote:

It’s a familiar story recognisable from every college professor that manages to find a new student to sleep with every year. As Kurt Busiek said, it may not strictly be illegal, but that doesn’t mean it’s not wrong.

This is the analogy I keep coming back to. Albeit not in such a formal setting it’s really the same pattern.

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Will_C, lorcan_nagle

This Sunday’s Orbital Operations should certainly be interesting.

One of the recurring themes of the Warren Ellis story is that he kept women in the dark about his other relationships. So full consent wasn’t happening. These women didn’t know upfront they were essentially part of his stable. Very skeevy and yes abusive behavior.

Touched on a bit here by one of his accusers: https://twitter.com/zoetica/status/1273574800133427200

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Martin Smith, Todd, lorcan_nagle

And it’s worth noting that Ellis has been in a long-term relationship for decades and he has a daughter who’s in her late teens or early 20s at this stage. Him fucking about with young women is unethical behaviour on so many levels.

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Uncle Retrospective, Martin Smith, Todd, Will_C

Martin Smith wrote:

It’s a familiar story recognisable from every college professor that manages to find a new student to sleep with every year. As Kurt Busiek said, it may not strictly be illegal, but that doesn’t mean it’s not wrong.

Whether or not it is legal, whether or not it fits a person’s definition of morality, one thing is true: If you use your position or power to take sexual advantage of another person, you are not a Man.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

It was interesting with Ellis’ old forum. I didn’t like it at all as he played this ‘overlord’ character that slapped people down and then formed these little cliques of regulars, many who wanted to make comics (and quite a few who did).

So it doesn’t surprise me hugely that that led to his own harem.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Ellis has always seemed like a bit of a wanker who’s high on his own cultivated image in comics. But he gets away with it as he’s a good writer.

So my opinion of him hasn’t really changed as a result of this, truth be told.

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KandorLives, Todd

To be fair that pretty much sums up my opinion of him. One I’d say about the women he strung along, they may have been unaware of each other but they can’t have been unaware of his wife and daughter.

In his Orbital Operations email, Ellis will occasionally mention his daughter, who is either in college or graduated.

I genuinely cannot remember the last time I have seen him mention his wife ANYWHERE and it’s been that way for years. I just assumed he had gotten a divorce some time ago and he just doesn’t talk about it. When he discusses he workload and projects, he comes across as being alone.

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Will_C

To be clear, I don’t think he was ever married.  Whenever his personal life was mentioned in a bio or he talked about his relationship, he referred to his girlfriend or partner, not wife.

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Will_C

lorcan_nagle wrote:

To be clear, I don’t think he was ever married.  Whenever his personal life was mentioned in a bio or he talked about his relationship, he referred to his girlfriend or partner, not wife.

Still, I haven’t seen a mention of a wife, girlfriend, partner, baby mama, or whatever in many years. Probably not since his daughter was a small child.

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lorcan_nagle

[Robbo]

The stuff I’ve seen goes back to around 2009/2010. He certain my used to refer to a partner and child around that time. I’ve enjoyed a number of Ellie’s books  and read a few interviews over the years and  none of them have suggested that he’s a particularly nice person.

 

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Robbo.

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Todd

Warren Ellis just sent out this via his Orbital Operations email:

Hello. Please forgive the lateness of my appearance. I have been speaking to people, and listening carefully, for a few days.

Recent statements have been made about me that need to be addressed.

I have never considered myself famous or powerful, to the point where I’ve made a lot of bad jokes about it for twenty-odd years. It had never really occurred to me that other people didn’t see it the same way—that I was not engaging as an equal when gifted with attention, but acting from a position of power and privilege. I did not take that into account in a number of my personal interactions and this was a mistake and I own it.

While I’ve made many bad choices in my past, and I’ve said a lot of wrong things, let me be clear, I have never consciously coerced, manipulated, or abused anyone, nor have I ever assaulted anybody. But I was ignorant of where I was operating from at a time I should have been clear and for that I accept 100% responsibility.

I hurt people deeply. I am ashamed for these mistakes and I am profoundly sorry. I will not speak against other people’s personal truths, and I will not expose them to the toxicity of the current discourse. I should have been more aware, more present, and more respectful of people’s feelings and for that I apologise.

I have had friendships and relationships end, sometimes in bitterness, often due to my own failings, and I continue to regret and apologise for the pain I have caused.

I have always tried to aid and support women in their lives and careers, but I have hurt many people that I had no intention of hurting. I am culpable. I take responsibility for my mistakes. I will do better and for that, I apologise.
I apologise to my friends and collaborators for having created this situation, and I hope they will be treated kindly. Mistakes and poor choices in my personal life are not on them, but only on me.

We have a responsibility to one another, every day. And I have, in my past, let too many people down. I hope to one day become worthy of the trust and kindness that was placed in me by colleagues and friends.

I will continue to listen, learn, and strive to be a better human being. I have sought to make amends with people, as I have been made aware of my transgressions, and will continue to do so. I have apologised, I apologise, and will continue to apologise and take total responsibility for my actions without equivocation.

I am going to be quiet now, to listen more than I speak, for other voices matter far more than my own right now.

I will be closing this newsletter. Thank you for your past support. Look after yourselves.

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Todd wrote:

I will do better and for that, I apologise.

Hmmmm….

Disregarding that bad phrasing:

Good to see someone at least accepting responsibility for bad behaviour. I haven’t heard or read any of the accounts of the people accusing him (I’m not even exactly sure what they’re accusing him of), but what he’s doing here: accepting not only responsibility but also the accounts of other people without directly denying it needs to be lauded in a time where celebrities and people with power more often than not just deny everything and try to suppress their accusers.

garjones wrote:

It was interesting with Ellis’ old forum. I didn’t like it at all as he played this ‘overlord’ character that slapped people down and then formed these little cliques of regulars, many who wanted to make comics (and quite a few who did). So it doesn’t surprise me hugely that that led to his own harem.

Yeah, anyone who was a member or lurker at the old WEF probably wouldn’t be horribly surprised by these revelations.

I always found his schtick to be suspect… the overbearing “Stalin” persona he cultivated, the whole “Filthy Assistants” thing, the interest he showed for getting women into comics…it was all kind of  there if you wanted to see it.

The WEF started out as a fun place, but it eventually became cliquey and mean-spirited before he  finally locked the doors. I remember a few blow-ups that happened there… a couple that played out (mostly) publicly, and one that was rumored (I seem to recall it being alluded to and joked about on one of the satellite forums like V).

And the forums he ran after the WEF… one of them, I think it was Whitechapel and not The Engine… kind of had a “show me your tits” vibe from what I recall.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

what he’s doing here: accepting not only responsibility but also the accounts of other people without directly denying it needs to be lauded in a time where celebrities and people with power more often than not just deny everything and try to suppress their accusers.

I dunno, it seemed like a pretty standard response these days to me – sorry for anyone I upset, I’ve made mistakes, but at the same time I haven’t done anything Seriously Wrong and I’m not saying anything else on the matter.

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd

Dave wrote:

I dunno, it seemed like a pretty standard response these days to me – sorry for anyone I upset, I’ve made mistakes, but at the same time I haven’t done anything Seriously Wrong and I’m not saying anything else on the matter.

Yeah, you might be right. If I was wrong I take full responsibility for it. No biggie. Let’s not speak of this again. ;)

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Todd

Àn apology like that is the first step, hopefully Ellis can and will do better from here on out.  A big part of why people don’t take apologies at face value any more is that so many people issue one, disappear for a year and then come back and act like nothing ever happened.

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Todd

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Àn apology like that is the first step, hopefully Ellis can and will do better from here on out.  A big part of why people don’t take apologies at face value any more is that so many people issue one, disappear for a year and then come back and act like nothing ever happened.

Well it’s Ellis, so his return will almost certainly be unexpectedly delayed to two or three years.

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd, Martin Smith, lorcan_nagle

The more I read about this the less I care. Ellis strung along a group of women who actively courted his attention. They were all adults and everything was consensual. He lied but people tell lies in relationships. It’s not healthy and it’s not right but it’s not a crime. This should all have been conducted in private. The Cameron Stewart case is much more serious and linking the two is disingenous.

Jason wrote:

Yeah, anyone who was a member or lurker at the old WEF probably wouldn’t be horribly surprised by these revelations. I always found his schtick to be suspect… the overbearing “Stalin” persona he cultivated, the whole “Filthy Assistants” thing, the interest he showed for getting women into comics…it was all kind of  there if you wanted to see it.

I was on there for the briefest of times. I made a post that he misread (and what I wrote was really clear) and snapped at me sarcastically. Which was annoying but we’re all human and can misread things, I replied and clarified again quoting myself.

The notable thing though was all his ‘assistants’ piled on to me with the devotion of a Republican senator trying to back up a Trump lie. There as something very cultish around it all.

I stuck with Millarworld and never looked at it again.

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Ben, Andrew, Todd, Dave

garjones wrote:

There as something very cultish around it all.

I’m going to assume “cultish” is  typo.

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njerry, Todd

It  can be two things.

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DavidM, Uncle Retrospective, Todd, Dave

Dave wrote:

I dunno, it seemed like a pretty standard response these days to me – sorry for anyone I upset, I’ve made mistakes, but at the same time I haven’t done anything Seriously Wrong and I’m not saying anything else on the matter.

After 3.5 years of living under a White House administration that, rather than apologize for mistakes, doubles down and circles the wagons in defense of its errors as if they did absolutely nothing wrong, it’s refreshing to read that someone is at least acknowledging his faults and using the words “ashamed” and “profoundly sorry”. I’m not defending him, just noting that we could use more sincere apologies today.

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DavidM, Andrew, Dave, Todd, lorcan_nagle

Robbo wrote:

The more I read about this the less I care. Ellis strung along a group of women who actively courted his attention. They were all adults and everything was consensual. He lied but people tell lies in relationships. It’s not healthy and it’s not right but it’s not a crime. This should all have been conducted in private. The Cameron Stewart case is much more serious and linking the two is disingenous.

I think that comes from a few points for here at least – Ellis has always had a following with Millarworld/Carrier regulars, and we’ve tended to see writers as the primary focus of the creative focus.  On top of that he’s more popular in general here than Cameron Stewart.

Also, Stewart’s misconduct is a lot less defensible than Ellis, so it’s more cut and dry.

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Todd

Dave wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

what he’s doing here: accepting not only responsibility but also the accounts of other people without directly denying it needs to be lauded in a time where celebrities and people with power more often than not just deny everything and try to suppress their accusers.

I dunno, it seemed like a pretty standard response these days to me – sorry for anyone I upset, I’ve made mistakes, but at the same time I haven’t done anything Seriously Wrong and I’m not saying anything else on the matter.

It does feel like perfunctory noise when a famous person does something wrong. It’s like this is one of the items to check off on a checklist “on the road to recovery”.

For me, written statements always feel especially hollow because they never seem truly authentic. You can practically hear the input of lawyers and crisis management teams in them.

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Martin Smith, Dave, lorcan_nagle

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Robbo wrote:

The more I read about this the less I care. Ellis strung along a group of women who actively courted his attention. They were all adults and everything was consensual. He lied but people tell lies in relationships. It’s not healthy and it’s not right but it’s not a crime. This should all have been conducted in private. The Cameron Stewart case is much more serious and linking the two is disingenous.

I think that comes from a few points for here at least – Ellis has always had a following with Millarworld/Carrier regulars, and we’ve tended to see writers as the primary focus of the creative focus.  On top of that he’s more popular in general here than Cameron Stewart.

Also, Stewart’s misconduct is a lot less defensible than Ellis, so it’s more cut and dry.

I think what troubles me is these reports are portraying him as a kind of sex offender. He’s not, he’s a womaniser. It’s not nice but there are plenty of people of all genders and sexualities who behave in this way without suffering the kind of puritanical censure Ellis has had this week.

Describing the reaction to Ellis’ actions as puritanical suggest that maybe you should listen to them a little closer instead of falling back on preconceptions.

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Martin Smith, Todd, Will_C

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Stewart’s misconduct is a lot less defensible than Ellis, so it’s more cut and dry.

There’s an irony in all this that Stewart has fallen off the majority of this conversation because he isn’t as famous as Ellis and I read an account of Nathan Edmonson’s behaviour which was probably worse than both of them (it was fully in the harassment zone rather than emotional manipulation) but nobody cares as he just had some minor Image books and a couple of Marvel minis.

I’m honestly not doing victim blaming here, the guys had the power dynamic, but it says a lot about our observance of that power still, over the actual level of the accusations and the focus they are given. It’s based on the fame and not the ‘crime’.

Some comedian was on Joe Rogan boasting that he forced female comics to fellate him before giving them a spot on stage. It’s had less focus than Louis CK’s transgressions, which were not as bad as that, because I assume he’s less famous (I’m not naming him because I forgot who he was).

 

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Todd, Dave, lorcan_nagle

Ellis claiming he wasn’t aware of his level of fame isn’t sitting right with me. That’s pure BS, he’s been one of the biggest names in comics since the late 90s.

His statement also doesn’t address the lying. Sure, “people tell lies in relationships”–but that’s wrong. This is a matter of right and wrong, not just legality. And telling lies to someone you’re trying to sleep with… well, let’s put that another way. Essentially you’re tricking someone into having sex with you. Trickery should never be a part of sex.

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Todd, Martin Smith, lorcan_nagle

[Jason]

Robbo wrote:

The more I read about this the less I care. Ellis strung along a group of women who actively courted his attention. They were all adults and everything was consensual. He lied but people tell lies in relationships. It’s not healthy and it’s not right but it’s not a crime. This should all have been conducted in private. The Cameron Stewart case is much more serious and linking the two is disingenous.

One thing that troubles me is that the accusations against Ellis and Stewart that I am aware of are actually rather vague and don’t go far beyond “took advantage of me when I was vulnerable,” which could cover a lot of things.

If this is going to play out in public, we need something more concrete than “he did something really bad, trust me.”

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Jason.

Will_C wrote:

Ellis claiming he wasn’t aware of his level of fame isn’t sitting right with me. That’s pure BS, he’s been one of the biggest names in comics since the late 90s.

His statement also doesn’t address the lying. Sure, “people tell lies in relationships”–but that’s wrong. This is a matter of right and wrong, not just legality. And telling lies to someone you’re trying to sleep with… well, let’s put that another way. Essentially you’re tricking someone into having sex with you. Trickery should never be a part of sex.

That’s true, the lying is shitty behaviour, but that’s the basis for every affair ever conducted and it doesn’t typically lead to calls for people to lose their jobs.

Yes, you might take a dim view of them, but I think calls for them to be drummed out of the industry maybe go too far, even if they are high-profile – ordinarily you wouldn’t, say, call for a Hollywood actor to be blacklisted just because they slept with someone else.

It’s the abuse of power thing that’s the worst aspect for me, and even that is [seemingly, based on what we know] in the territory of being emotionally manipulative rather than coercive. Again, most people would probably take a dim view but beyond that I’m not really sure what to say, especially given that he has acknowledged it and apologised.

I guess the thing to do in this situation is, if you feel strongly enough about it, not support his work in future and send a message that way.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Describing the reaction to Ellis’ actions as puritanical suggest that maybe you should listen to them a little closer instead of falling back on preconceptions.

I’ve been polite in my posts and would appreciate it being reciprocated. Disagree by all means but try not to have a dig at the same time.

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Robbo wrote:

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Describing the reaction to Ellis’ actions as puritanical suggest that maybe you should listen to them a little closer instead of falling back on preconceptions.

I’ve been polite in my posts and would appreciate it being reciprocated. Disagree by all means but try not to have a dig at the same time.

Puritanical is a term with very specific meanings that are wholly inappropriate here.  I’m not having a dig, I’m pointing out a major misconception in your argument.

More specifically: nobody who is criticising Ellis is saying that sex is bad, or that he was bad to engage in relationships of a sexual nature.  It’s all about the interplay of influence and power, and to what level he may or may not have been leading people on in those relationships.

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Todd, Dave, Will_C

Depending on what info comes out about Ellis’s behavior (Alex de Campi said online that she’s heard even worse stuff that hasn’t come out) I don’t know if he should lose his job. But I think his statement is really lackluster and the women he wronged deserve more. Dan Harmon’s apology to Megan Ganz is a good example of an apology done well.

I think lying about your relationship status to sexual partners is a really scummy thing to do. Not all affairs include that element, but anyone carrying on an affair and continuing to have sex with their main partner while keeping them in the dark is doing something really fucked up.

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Todd, Dave, lorcan_nagle

[Bruce]

https://downthetubes.net/?p=119018&fbclid=IwAR22M9spVNmhZCvAEWZ4-83XqeSyCgC9UFgG9gOjDRDeq5_TWtdjvuABSlc

I’ve bought a couple Hibernia Comics publications in the past but I’ve got something published in this magazine they are putting out about lesser known works relating to classic British comics / creators. Nothing major, not an article or anything, but just a photo of a maths board game Brian Boland illustrated. I’d forgotten I’d sent it to the guy in charge a couple years ago until he emailed me with a pdf of the publication.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Bruce.

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DavidM, Ben, Will_C, njerry, garjones, Dave

It still feels like a dig and the last few posts are adopting a particularly didactic tone. The outraged reactions feel to me as if they object to Ellis’s polygamous lifestyle as much as his abuse of position. Personally both go against my own moral position but there you go.

I’m far too naive and gullible for any of this.

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lorcan_nagle

[Will_C]

I don’t think anyone here cares about Ellis’s polyamory but honesty to one’s partners is a pretty big deal in polyamory communities.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Will_C.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Robbo wrote:

The outraged reactions feel to me as if they object to Ellis’s polygamous lifestyle

Let’s cut to the chase here: almost none of them do.

Let’s cut to the chase in a second way:  Assume for a moment that Ellis is poly.  Anyone who’s in that lifestyle will tell you that if you are, and you’re looking to maintain multiple relationships, you make sure everyone involved is aware and are OK with it.  It’s literally rule one of polygamous relationships. If Ellis was maintaining multiple relationships and if even one of those people was unaware, then he was being shitty on multiple levels.

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Todd, Dave, Will_C

There was a reason I didn’t use the word polyamory. It’s clear that he had multiple partners who didn’t know of each others existence.

Okay, so then what’s the problem with people objecting to him doing that?

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lorcan_nagle, Dave

Will_C wrote:

I think lying about your relationship status to sexual partners is a really scummy thing to do. Not all affairs include that element, but anyone carrying on an affair and continuing to have sex with their main partner while keeping them in the dark is doing something really fucked up.

Just to be clear, I agree with you on all of this. It’s just semantics – I think of an affair as being defined by lying to at least one of the partners, but if multiple relationships are happening simultaneously and everyone knows about it, I think of it as an open relationship.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle, Will_C

Oh for sure, I didn’t think you were defending that behavior, I just wanted to clarify my point that lying to sexual partners to get them into bed is the issue here (along with abuse of power) and is the most objectionable part of having affairs.

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Dave, lorcan_nagle

Just to note, this is a very sensitive subject with a lot of nuance. People will disagree, we’ll get 100 different interpretations, but let’s please take it only as far as that and not get into taking it too personally or delivering your point that way.

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Will_C, Todd, Dave, lorcan_nagle

Anonymous wrote:

I’m far too naive and gullible for any of this.

I have something that will help overcome your gullibility. Come join me in the back of this non-descript white van…

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KandorLives, Andrew, Uncle Retrospective

Todd wrote:

I have something that will help overcome your gullibility. Come join me in the back of this non-descript white van…

Only if it’s drugs.

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd

Todd wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m far too naive and gullible for any of this.

I have something that will help overcome your gullibility. Come join me in the back of this non-descript white van…

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd

Re: Coming forward with our reports of sexual misconduct of @warrenellis.
This is all terribly hard, but it's easier when we're together. Let's all connect. I'm putting together a chat server for us and I've been building an anonymous archive of our stories. Please get in touch.

— Jhayne Holmes (@Foxtongue) June 16, 2020

I stand in solidarity with @katiewest . My #MeToo story of @warrenellis is backed up with an archive of hundreds of emails and photos that spans years. We were prey yet didn't know it, because we were so, so young. pic.twitter.com/Xhf0AWUcm3

— Jhayne Holmes (@Foxtongue) June 16, 2020

Warren Ellis Accused Of Grooming Young Women For Decades

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lorcan_nagle

I loved his works, i’m always loved his Planetary and Nextwave, and Warren Ellis is [and still] one of my top favorite writers since i was a kid. (I was even excited when he’s going to write the evil Bat-T-Rex) I honestly don’t know what to say after i’m hearing this, other than, i’m really disappointed in Warren.

I won’t acting like i’m surprised that some others does that, but i felt like at this point i shouldn’t trust any my favorite creators who sames to be nice people may have dark secrets, no matter who they are.

I think i may change my avatar John Lynch from the Wild Storm since he re-created an incarnation of Jim Lee’s old character. I don’t know, i’ll think about it.

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Christian, Ben, Todd, Uncle Retrospective, Dave, lorcan_nagle

MaxMaxmarvel123 wrote:

I loved his works, i’m always loved his Planetary and Nextwave, and Warren Ellis is [and still] one of my top favorite writers since i was a kid.

Personally, for me, these latest disclosures won’t change that and won’t affect my view of his old work (or his current work, for that matter). But everyone views these things differently, and I would understand if some people felt his comics work was tainted by this.

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Andrew, Todd, Uncle Retrospective, MaxMaxmarvel123

This is a brilliant piece by a former WEF member talking about the way toxic behaviour was hiding in plain sight back in the day. It also better expresses some of the thoughts I had about the boozy pub culture of the convention scene and how that plays into things.

On Finding Out Your Heroes are Monsters (Or: Detoxifying A Culture)

The same holds true for various geek conventions. Comic, anime, gaming and sci-fi cons exist as both professional events and vacations, where the line between professional networking and personal relationships blur to the point of being almost non-existent. And at every con is — inevitably — Bar Con. It’s at Bar Con — held at the hotel bar — that much of the business of the geek industry goes down. But Bar Con is, in many ways, part and parcel of the same “live fast, party hard” culture of the WEF and elsewhere; the drinking culture of conventions can’t be overstated. In fact, it’s one that people often feel compelled to be a part of; that need to fit into the culture in order to be accepted. As such, there’s an almost performative aspect to it, the urge to prove that you can party like the rock star you feel like being or to get completely goddamn hammered because fuck it, why not? Small wonder that so many of the worst stories in comics start at the con bar

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Ben, lorcan_nagle, Todd

To be honest it’s something that goes far beyond geek culture and into many industries, certainly the ones I’ve worked in over the years. Conventions and conferences and evening events of any kind often become boozy and bad behaviour is commonplace and often tolerated in a way that it never would be in the workplace.

That’s not to excuse any of it, but just to say that what some people are labelling as part of an unpleasant comics culture is something that I see more broadly as human nature.

But I do think the interaction of fans and pros at entertainment events makes the abuse of power element more likely to be prevalent. Similar to the music world I guess, which has always had a reputation for that kind of thing.

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DavidM, lorcan_nagle, Todd

MaxMaxmarvel123 wrote:

I won’t acting like i’m surprised that some others does that, but i felt like at this point i shouldn’t trust any my favorite creators who sames to be nice people may have dark secrets, no matter who they are.

I was talking about Ellis and Stewart to the manager of my LCS and she said if she ever heard any stories come out about Greg Rucka, he would have to be “Old Yeller-ed”.

To be clear, Rucka has NOT been accused of anything.

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Uncle Retrospective, lorcan_nagle

Todd wrote:

he would have to be “Old Yeller-ed”.

He as in the LCS rep or he as in Rucka?

edit: Nevermind, I didn’t properly catch the pronouns you used before. Gotcha now.

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lorcan_nagle

Todd wrote:

Warren Ellis Accused Of Grooming Young Women For Decades

I guess we now know why he had so much trouble hitting deadlines and getting his comics out in a timely manner.

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Todd, Bruce, njerry

In reading the details in the BC piece, I’m still not terribly concerned. This behaviour:

1. He found me when I was young/vulnerable/uncertain. 2. He acted like a mentor, gave me so much appreciated attention.. 3. but pushed boundaries.  4. He said I was his world/we were best friends/he was my thrilling secret/he supported my career so I didn’t feel like I could say no. 5. He dropped me.

Is mean, but not monstrous. People lead people on. It’s exciting to feel like someone of stature notices you. They, however, don’t owe you anything.

It goes on in all walks of life and I’ve seen it happen with women and men and the cynical me thinks it’s a facet of human behaviour that won’t change. It’s never as cut and dried as the twitter debate would have you  believe.

Andrew wrote:

In reading the details in the BC piece, I’m still not terribly concerned. This behaviour:

1. He found me when I was young/vulnerable/uncertain. 2. He acted like a mentor, gave me so much appreciated attention.. 3. but pushed boundaries.  4. He said I was his world/we were best friends/he was my thrilling secret/he supported my career so I didn’t feel like I could say no. 5. He dropped me.

Is mean, but not monstrous. People lead people on. It’s exciting to feel like someone of stature notices you. They, however, don’t owe you anything.

Verging on monstrous when it’s being done to multiple women simultaneously.

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Todd

We are all wholly inequipped to pass judgement on Ellis. Be that condemning or absolving.

Think what you will of it. We will undoubtebly see the repercussions of this coming either which way.

Is this a bad time to say I re-read The Authority shortly before these news were out and have a real hard time reconciling how I once thought this was one of my favourite comics? It’s like… superhero comics for teenage edgelords. Not garbage but a set of interesting characters making never-ending, sometimes hamfisted, one-liners at the reader is still pretty fucking far from Planetary (which is still excellent). I still enjoyed the God-story and Jennys passing though. Like I said, it’s not garbage. And the art was still enjoyable.

The Millar stuff was closer to garbage, though. In every respect except perhaps the art. It’s going to be a long time before I pick these up again.

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Uncle Retrospective, Todd

Yep take away Hitch’s art and you’ve got an average comic. Take Quitely away from Miller’s run and you’ve got a poor one.

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Ben

Robbo wrote:

Yep take away Hitch’s art and you’ve got an average comic.

I don’t know if I agree. Hitch’s art is a big part of it for sure, but Ellis pushed a type of storytelling for superhero comics that really shifted the landscape at the time, even if it probably doesn’t look as revolutionary in retrospect. And part of that was his influence on the art and visual pacing, in conjunction with what Hitch brought to the table.

I think Millar’s run holds up to scrutiny a little less well than Ellis’ because it’s more in the mindset of shocking the reader and being transgressive, whereas the Ellis run was more refined and less intent on getting that kind of reaction. And that kind of Ennis-style shock-value comic looks dated now.

I think Ultimates is more like Millar’s version of Ellis’ Authority, if that makes sense (and not just because of the Hitch connection.)

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Ben

Robbo wrote:

Yep take away Hitch’s art and you’ve got an average comic. Take Quitely away from Miller’s run and you’ve got a poor one.

That’s a good way of putting it. Although I’d like to be a bit harsher than “poor”.

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Uncle Retrospective

Dave wrote:

Ellis pushed a type of storytelling for superhero comics that really shifted the landscape at the time

I didn’t even consider that, actually. And I think what you’re saying might be fair. Do you have the time to go a little bit more in depth about it, or do you have any good reading tips to better understand what Ellis really brought to the medium with this?

I think reading Stormwatch leading up to Authority really helps. There, you can see Ellis take a book and write in the style of the time, before becoming more experimental with it, making some bold moves and retooling the book to become more what he wants it to be.

When you read it in that context, it’s a gradual segue rather than Authority representing a sudden sea-change.

But I think Authority is still a book that tried to make a statement and marked a transition from Image style 90s books where art, especially pinup-style splashpages, was king (and writing was often barely relevant) to a kind of story where the writing and art were more in sync again, and brought a more cinematic language to comics. That’s not just the often-cited “widescreen” art but also the visual pacing in general, and the more action-movie-style take on putting a comic together (the one-liners are part of that I think).

Feels like it was a big influence on Millar’s career in general.

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Ben, Uncle Retrospective, Todd

Been trying to work out my take on this, other than that Ellis is clearly an arse in his personal life.  Is he entitled to be that? Well, unless illegal, yes but that’s not a shield against criticism.

The problem, which was the one I had when the Wood revelations came out, is you have these guys as selling themselves and their work a certain way, which includes certain personal beliefs and views that the very same individuals are not upholding in their personal lives.  Makes me feel like I’ve been played,that there’s a lack of sincerity that bleeds into the work, that it was all about the cash.

I do wonder if the nature of the comics industry makes it easier for shady individuals to get away with shady actions.  People are spread out, working in different locations, work is sent back and forths, interactions likely to be of the professional variety.  Does this explain Scott Allie at DHC?  Maybe.  The Q for me then and now does this reflect on Mignola? Does it tarnish the Mignolaverse? Allie’s still involved in it too.

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Todd, Dave, lorcan_nagle

Ben wrote:

I do wonder if the nature of the comics industry makes it easier for shady individuals to get away with shady actions.

I think it’s more general to any freelance industry. We’ve seen the same or worse in stand up comedy or any forms of film and TV. There is less of an opportunity to see patterns of behaviour as you would in a typical office setting, there’s no HR or ethics hotline in the same way, but even then challenging this kind of thing can be hard.

When I first started working in Malaysia I had a colleague from St. Helens in Lancashire here for a year who was a great friend. She went off to work in Dubai (for the same company) under a guy from the UK who was having an affair with a very pretty Indian girl 25 years his junior. She was promoted rapidly and then 2 years later he became my boss’s boss and she was brought in to tell us all what to despite no experience. He retired a couple of years later with a huge pension, retired to the Philippines and dumped her for a younger model to presumably flounder. Not exactly the same but similar to the stages mentioned in the Ellis trend – you are great, the most important, I’ll connect you and then radio silence.

We all knew what was going on but you can’t really blow the whistle because without definitive proof you know it’ll fall flat. We all saw flirtation, them being barely apart, but no paparazzi pics of snogging or sex.

It’s the same with us saying we could see signs in the way the WEF worked and it doesn’t surprise but neither could I say with any confidence that manipulation was happening.

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Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle

Max pretty much expressed my feelings about this. I hate, hate, hate it so much that Ellis has turned out to be this kind of person.

But I don’t have any idea yet as to where I stand with regards to his work now… I suspect I will stop supporting him by buying his books, but I’ll miss his work terribly. Fuck, man, why do you have to be such a dick?

More generally I get Robbo’s and Andrew’s points though. This is one of those cases where you have to ask whether a writer being a huge asshole in his private life is any of my concern. He didn’t rape or sexually abuse anyone; he did treat many women like shit. Does he – or anyone – deserve to lose their job and livelihood because they turned out to be lying shits and emotionally abusive?
Maybe. But that’s not usually how it works.

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KandorLives, lorcan_nagle, Ben

To be honest nothing I have read by Ellis over the years made me think he was a nice guy and that could be the reason these revelations didn’t shock me.

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Jason

Thanks for the small write-up Dave.

I’m so glad to have you guys in my life, reading your perspectives, takes and experiences on this is wonderful for me to move past my naive and gullible nature.

Big thanks for sharing, all!

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Will_C, Dave, Todd

Dave wrote:

I think Millar’s run holds up to scrutiny a little less well than Ellis’ because it’s more in the mindset of shocking the reader and being transgressive, whereas the Ellis run was more refined and less intent on getting that kind of reaction. And that kind of Ennis-style shock-value comic looks dated now.

They both have their place – looking at them in absolute terms they have their flaws but comparing them to their mainstream competition at the time can be more meaningful.

Christian wrote:

He didn’t rape or sexually abuse anyone; he did treat many women like shit. Does he – or anyone – deserve to lose their job and livelihood because they turned out to be lying shits and emotionally abusive?

I can’t immediately think of any but I’m sure there are people in my life who have strung boyfriends/girlfriends along. Maybe we’ve all been strung along at some point. It needn’t even be sexual/romantic – there are partnerships of convenience in all workplaces. I’m not even a huge Ellis fan (I don’t have the Authority trades anymore, but when I bought the run I was more impressed by Millar’s than Ellis’ stories, which eventually led me to MillarWorld) – I just find the reaction/punishment with a story like this to be disproportionate to the “crime”.

(Gary Groth was also mentioned as part of these revelations – is Fantagraphics canceled too?)

[garjones]

Andrew wrote:

(Gary Groth was also mentioned as part of these revelations – is Fantagraphics canceled too?)

This is part of what I was discussing earlier. The focus is based on the ‘celebrity’ level of the person in question over the level of the offences.

A few revelations have appeared in my social media over the last few days.

Cameron Stewart – much the same manipulation as Ellis but he targeted really young girls, his first accuser was 16 at the time.

Nathan Edmonson – the account of his behaviour had him physically forcing himself on young women with unwanted kisses.

Charles Brownstein – top guy at the Comic Book Legal Defence Fund – groped Taki Soma’s breast at a convention and tried to rip off her shirt until he was restrained by another man present.

The attention given in the media and social media is inverse to the level of offence, the last two are definitely illegal. It’s based on their level of fame.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by garjones.

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Todd

Robbo wrote:

To be honest nothing I have read by Ellis over the years made me think he was a nice guy and that could be the reason these revelations didn’t shock me.

Yeah, I’m kind of in the same boat. As someone who remembers the WEF, I wasn’t surprised at all by these revelations.

I actually quit buying Ellis’ books because I really couldn’t stand him as a person. That “Stalin” shit seemed to go to his head.

He actually reminds me a lot of Harlan Ellison. He’s got a forceful personality and that intangible sort of charisma that attracts people. He could be your best friend in the world, and a pat on the head from him would feel like some kind of blessing. But on the flip side, it’s also like you were always one faux pas away from landing on his shitlist. I remember him attacking and banning members of his board for some really petty reasons. I, personally, have a really low tolerance for bullying, and stopped participating on his board and stopped buying his books because he revealed himself to be someone whose head I didn’t want to spend a lot of time in.

A few years after he shut down his board, I finished off my Transmet and Planetary runs from quarter bins, and picked up the odd title of his I found interesting.

 

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Todd, garjones, Martin Smith

The latest Cartoonist Kayfabe interview is with Rob Liefeld – he’s high energy and willing to dish a lot more than a lot of other professionals.

From about 1 hour 19 he’s talking about the crazy money that was available at the time – he hired Alan Moore (who was desperate for work) to write Violator/Badrock, and mentions paying Joe Quesada 70k to draw 9 covers. 10k to George Perez for a pin-up. Inkers at Marvel were getting 150 a page; Rob hires newbies at 300 a page.

When Extreme was looking for new talent, a submission package from Jeff Matsuda prompted Rob to hire him immediately, flying him from Chicago to California to live in the Extreme house, where studio artists lived together 5 minutes away from Extreme HQ. One month after being hired Matsuda moves out of the house because he’s bought his own place (and a car).

With Stephen Platt, he was making 4-5k per issue at Marvel on Moon Knight – Rob offered him 40k per issue to pencil and ink Prophet. Crazy times.

There are some good little Alan Moore stories, and some spot-on McFarlane impressions too – worth a watch/listen. It’s available as an audio podcast as well.

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Todd

garjones wrote:

Charles Brownstein – top guy at the Comic Book Legal Defence Fund – groped Taki Soma’s breast at a convention and tried to rip off her shirt until he was restrained by another man present.

And he’s out. Only took fifteen years.

And there’s also this, that makes it look like there might be more allegations…

CBLDF Board Made Employee Sign NDA Not to Talk About Her Departure

Dear @CBLDF board, I would like to be legally released from the conditions of my NDA. It was issued to me by Charles Brownstein and was done so with immense pressure. I look forward to your response. pic.twitter.com/Eu0RGsfB4F

— Shy Allott (@1horseshy) June 23, 2020

I have to say, I find the CBLDF’s conduct to be quite appalling. They’re a non-profit that solicits for and accepts donations. Brownstein was, I would assume, at the convention where he assaulted Taki Soma in a hot tub as a representative of (not to mention paid for by) the CBLDF. It’s just beyond the pale that they would look past his conduct as a representative of the organization.

 

 

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Will_C, Todd

And there are more allegations against Dark Horse’s Scott Allie.

https://www.cbr.com/dark-horse-scott-allie-sexual-abuse/

https://www.cbr.com/dark-horse-mignola-cut-ties-with-scott-allie-after-sexual-assault-claims/

Shawna Gore’s story can be read here on her twitter account:

I have made the decision to come forward with my own experience of abuse in the comics industry. I am not the one at fault and the shame I have felt is not mine to carry.

I was assaulted, harassed, and retaliated against by Scott Allie during our tenure at Dark Horse. pic.twitter.com/78El6VDbb4

— Shawna Gore (@ShawnaGore) June 24, 2020

Dark Horse’s response:

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Todd

Jason wrote:

I have to say, I find the CBLDF’s conduct to be quite appalling. They’re a non-profit that solicits for and accepts donations.

It is really disappointing.  A charity formed to defend free speech was issuing NDAs to cover up harassment.

It’s going to be difficult for them because their existence is reliant on good will from donors and all I see right now is people saying they’ll only give the Hero Initiative going forward.

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Will_C, Todd

Yeah, the CBLDF are pretty much fucked. Not much hope for an apparently benevolent legal organisation using shady lawyerly tricks to cover up its own misdeeds.

There’s also been some stories about Jason Latour being a total boundary-less creep:

Multiple women accuse SPIDER-GWEN co-creator Jason Latour of misconduct

Robbi Rodriguez mentioned a couple of times with along with that (which makes his hissy fit over Frank Cho drawing Spider-Gwen a few years back even more laughable).

And on Dark Horse, Mignola and Allie, Guy Davis lobbed in a grenade:

Dark Horse and Mignola knew of Scott Allie's harassment and toxic behavior (which was publicly reported and commented on by DH) back in 2015 and both continued to work with him. DH cant force an editor/writer on a creator, let alone Mike~ so why did they keep working with him? https://t.co/Nf1lQZ2PO9

— Guy Davis (@GuyDavisART) June 25, 2020

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Will_C, Todd, Ben

Andrew wrote:

can’t immediately think of any but I’m sure there are people in my life who have strung boyfriends/girlfriends along. Maybe we’ve all been strung along at some point

Yeah you keep stringing me along promising one day I’ll meet your dog and then it never happens.

What the fuck is this Andrew.

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Todd, Andrew

Todd wrote:

For me, written statements always feel especially hollow because they never seem truly authentic

Well, when a guy’s entire job is to write things that are total fiction yet sound convincing and emotionally honest…

 

 

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Todd, Martin Smith

Unfortunately there wasn’t a New Scientist article to lift about apologising for sexual harrassment.

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KandorLives, Christian, Todd, Andrew, Martin Smith

Martin Smith wrote:

And on Dark Horse, Mignola and Allie, Guy Davis lobbed in a grenade:

That seems plausible. You don’t post “we believe Shawna Gore” less that 12 hours after she posts an uncorroborated account, and fire the guy immediately without an invesitgation or airing of his side of the story, unless you already knew it was all true. So the question for Dark Horse would have to be, if you knew and didn’t do anything until it would be bad PR not to, how much do you really care?

I did a bit of Googling and they had already responded to complaints about Allie’s behaviour at Comicon back in 2015 as Davis says, when drunk he was licking and biting people and grabbed one guy by his genitals. They said it had been dealt with internally and he was seemingly demoted from an Editor in Chief post.

What you could say to defend Dark Horse is that this is new information, it also goes counter to Allie’s defence then that it was down to a problem with alcohol he was getting rehab for (Gore says he was sober when he ). In truth I think it’s more that ‘me too’ has changed our culture since 2015 to a much lower tolerance level for sexual harassment.

 

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Todd, DavidM, Dave

Allie left DHC in 2017, but has continued writing Mignolaverse books until now – presumably with Mignola’s backing, which DHC published.

From a business perspective and as a creator backing company, could be they felt unable to lose another product line?  None of it looks good.  For DHC or Mignola.

 

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Todd, Dave

Ben wrote:

Allie left DHC in 2017, but has continued writing Mignolaverse books until now – presumably with Mignola’s backing, which DHC published.

Thanks for explaining this Ben, it clears up a lot.

I had seen Dark Horse initially react to all this (before their official statement) by saying they backed Mignola’s decision to cut ties, which seemed odd to me as you would expect them to make a decision as a company rather than being led by one of their creators.

But given that the relationship is only via Mignola it makes perfect sense.

It’s sad. The Mignolaverse is one of the biggest creator-owned properties in terms of sheer content but this tarnishes it badly because Allie was involved on a great deal of it.

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Todd

I’ve heard of this before. It was previously spun as something along the lines of “Watch out for the DH who bites.”

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Todd

Ah… *sigh*

 

I’ll just dig the firepit to be a bit wider, I suppose. I’ll get the shovel.

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Todd

Surprised that Allie didn’t get pushed aside a lot earlier, but I guess his mea culpa from his alcoholic transgression cut him a lot of slack. I hope this doesn’t cause the Mignolaverse any long term damage, but I struggle to see how it will remain unscathed given Allie’s deep involvement throughout its history.

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Ben

The last Omnibus volume of BPRD: THE DEVIL YOU KNOW, co-written by Scott Allie, is scheduled to ship March 2021 — I wonder if Dark Horse will cancel it now.

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Ben, Todd

Vikram wrote:

alcoholic transgression

Ah, the Mel Gibson defense.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Vikram wrote:

alcoholic transgression

Ah, the Mel Gibson defense.

Whatever you say, Sugar Tits…

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Andrew

regarding DarkHorse/BPRD~ I quit the series in 2011 because of the toxic behavior of Allie, Mignola, Arcudi and cut all contact. In 2015 with news of Allie's assaults and DH "response", I cancelled The Marquis HC from DH (which never had a contract for them to solicit)

— Guy Davis (@GuyDavisART) June 25, 2020

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Todd

[Ben]

Fuck.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ben.

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Todd

The Beano tweeting this brought a big smile to my face.

(Accompanied by a sudden and long-delayed realisation of just how many Beano characters have stripey clothes.)

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Bruce, Todd, lorcan_nagle, njerry, Ben

I always knew Dennis the Menace was a liberal. Gnasher, on the other hand….

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Dave

I’m disappointed by Danny, who despite having a stripey hat doesn’t seem to be getting in the spirit.