Politics Discussion: Cynicism Always Warranted

Topic

Talk about politics here.

Probably quite a quiet thread at the moment I expect.

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The problem is, from the commentary I’m hearing from Russians themselves, is that every person likely to replace Putin is also pro-war and thinks Ukraine should be destroyed.

Which suggests that the best we can hope for is that the post-coup leader will at least be realistic and understand that they can’t win. That a better approach will be to blame Putin – not for starting the war,  but for conducting it badly – and try again in ten years after they’ve rebuilt the army.

But whoever it is must also know that in 10 years Ukraine will be in NATO, and attacking NATO will mean the end of Russia. Which gives him a bit of a dilemma. He has to wait, but he can’t afford to wait.

 

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Yeah most Russians believe the West wants to destroy them and they need to defend themselves. Which includes stopping Ukraine from getting under Western influence. I think they live with a victim complex that stems from the two world wars when they were attacked and suffered terribly, and also the economic crisis caused by the fall of the Soviet Union.

 

On the other hand, they also see themselves as having some civilizational duty to rule or influence other nations, including the old Soviet Republics and Eastern Europe and even places like Iran and Mongolia.

 

This is not true for all Russians of course, but many of them, including people that are opposed to Putin and in some ways liberal.

 

I don’t think Putin himself believes the West is trying to destroy Russia, he is just concerned about his own power.

Putin knows he has this winter to win his war. After this, western energy independence plans go into overdrive and it’s no longer just sanctions fucking the Russian economy.

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Todd

The energy stuff is fascinating. Germany in particular as a large European force really slept on this and relied on Russian gas but everyone is accelerating alternative, and mostly greener, supplies. France is mostly nuclear powered, the UK uses only 4% Russian gas.

If Russia loses that export market then what else do they have anyone cares about? Nothing. We can buy Ukranian vodka, China makes our olastic shit and India/Bangladesh our clothes. Maybe they will have to huddle down with strategic blackouts for a year but that’s a lot less onerous than shit we’ve faced before, the UK did that in the mid 1970s.

The problem from there is back to the logic of Putin. The less sense any of this makes economically the more we have to worry an individual has lost the plot and won’t act rationally. If Russia blew up Nordstream there is no way long term that does anything but hurt them.

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Todd, Ben

Putin can still sell his stuff to India, China, Pakistan, Iran, Central Asia…and many other countries. Those alone are more than three billion people.

 

In a way this seems like a “fog on the channel, continent cut off” kind of thing. We think Russia is helpless without our money, but it may turn out differently. Especially with OPEC now decreasing production.

But are they going to want to buy from him?

For instance, India and China are quietly fuming over what Putin’s been doing.  They won’t state it publically but they’re not happy.

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Todd

Well who is happy really? China and India have refused however to condemn Russia and are still doing business with them. Meanwhile we are hacing 17 % inflation in the Netherlands.

 

I am not sure who is going to break first.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Putin can still sell his stuff to India, China, Pakistan, Iran, Central Asia…and many other countries.

Sure he can but he always could and did so that’s shrinking your market. Of the top 10 destinations for Russian gas in 2021 8 of them were in Western Europe. China accounted for only 3.5% so despite their huge population that’s only marginally higher than The Netherlands at 3.3%. Germany was at over 27%, India not on the list. Countries aren’t going to suddenly change their energy mix to create demand to fill what they’ve lost.

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Todd, Arjan Dirkse

I still don’t understand the Nordstream thing. There is no profit in Russia blowing it up — it’s their gas, the end is in their country, if they wanted to disrupt the flow, all they had to do was turn the taps off!

I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but with the old adage of “follow the money”, the only country that benefits from blowing it up is the United States.

 

It could be the US, but it could also be Russia. Putin always wants to drive a wedge between the US and Germany, so blowing it up and making people in Germany suspect the US did that, while also causing extra headaches for Germany, could benefit him. Kinda like a false flag attack.

I agree it is weird and yes if you had to look at the main beneficiaries it would be the US or even the UK as the small amount of gas they bought from Russia didn’t come via Nordstream but by boat.

However Russia have been relatively quiet in condemning it and despite the fact that at any time they could have cut off gas to western Europe because of their sanctions they instead always used some excuse about repairs and maintenance.

The risk is also massive if it came from US/UK and they got found out setting off bombs in Danish waters, it could rip NATO apart and do far more harm than good.

TLDR: I have no idea, it doesn’t make much sense.

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Todd

Maybe our blind spot is that we think Russia only does what is in their financial interest, we have difficulty thinking outside the profit motive. Their actions give the impression they don’t care that their economy takes a hit.

 

 

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Chris D, DavidM

Don’t underestimate the simple “causing chaos” aspect. I wouldn’t put it past Russia to do it just because it destabilises things that little bit more.

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Todd

Yeah, the chaos theory doesn’t seem completely out of bounds. I mean, if we’re even having semi-serious talk ps that Putin could use nuclear weapons then no tactic is off the table. Putin is clearly desperate. He started a war that he thought he could win in 2 to 3 weeks. 8 months later there’s no end in sight, the Russian economy is in shambles, Russians are trying to flee the country to escape conscription, and Putin has long been an agent of destabilization. So I would put anything past him at this point.

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Todd, garjones

In response to a question what she was going to do about the 17 % inflation, our finance minister said there are things more important than money…

Not a great answer, sounds pretty tone deaf, but the truth is all governments are a little impotent in these matters. They can mitigate to a certain degree but if we could control the economy we’d barely have any worries. We’d set interest rates, inflation and growth all at 2% and wonderfully plan for the future.

The big thing is we’ve been here before, in the early 1970s, and I don’t think many took the lessons they should have. Which is that the cartel that runs the oil business sets the rates as they fancy with no relation to the cost of extracting it. Oil is worth $3-4 a barrel, it was last year, will be next year, all the rest is manipulation and unimaginable profit. It all connects because everything you buy needs energy to produce and distribute it. Bread costs more because the van driving it to the shop now pays twice as much for petrol.

I think the difference this time is technology means it’s potentially easier to break from it than 50 years ago. Labour in the UK have a feasible plan to be energy self sufficient in 8 years using renewables and electric vehicles (and yes some nuclear and they have some oil in the North Sea). Gulf states know this, in some some senses they are pushing for a last hurrah. The UAE started it but Qatar and later Saudi Arabia have followed by pumping the ridiculous profits into other revenue streams. Saudi Arabia are cutting production to lift profits to build their nutso Neon city. Which looks impressive but who the fuck wants to live in Saudi Arabia? I know people who have for work and generally it is regarded as a profitable prison sentence, you do your 3 years, grab the piles of tax free money and never go back.

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DavidM, Chris D, Todd

Not trying to bore you guys with Canadian politics, but it involves Pierre Poilievre, the new Leader of the Progressive Conservatives (right wing) who are in Official Opposition status to the Liberal/NDP coalition.
He’s got a shiny new coat of paint, at a time when people are just plain going nuts (some, not all).

Got me a little worried about the next election (no way I vote right wing).
But then there’s this, and no way I let that go.

Pierre Poilievre’s YouTube channel included hidden misogynistic tag to promote videos – Global News

Pierre Poilievre’s official YouTube videos included a hidden tag appealing to misogynistic online movements that Canada’s intelligence agencies view as a danger.

A Global News analysis of 50 of Poilievre’s most recent YouTube videos showed that they included a tag — hidden from viewers, but not from the videos’ publisher — used by a misogynistic online movement. The tag helps promote Poilievre’s videos among those circles, and signals to YouTube what users might be interested in the Conservative leader’s messaging.

The tag, #mgtow, is an acronym for “Men Going Their Own Way” — a mostly-online movement comprised of anti-feminists who attempt to cut women completely out of their lives. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, the movement overlaps with more aggressive forms of “male supremacy.”

It’s difficult to quantify the size of the movement, and its overlap with other forms of misogyny both online and in the real world. But online spaces connected to the “manosphere” have proliferated in recent years.

Global News verified the tag was used on the videos using publicly-available software and checked it against the video’s source code.

Within hours of Global News sending a detailed list of questions to Poilievre’s office, the tag disappeared.

Poilievre’s office said the Conservative leader was unaware the embedded tags existed “and therefore was unaware they were used for uploads on his YouTube channel over the last” four and a half years.

Who in the party that handles that stuff thought that was a good idea?
So stupid, but a nice gift to the rest of the political spectrum.

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DavidM, Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle

garjones wrote:

However Russia have been relatively quiet in condemning it and despite the fact that at any time they could have cut off gas to western Europe because of their sanctions they instead always used some excuse about repairs and maintenance.

Well, looking at it from the other side – let’s say you’re responsible for the maintenance of some critical piece of infrastructure.

However, on one side you have politicians that want to save or claw back money for their pet projects and on the other are companies with multi-million or billion dollar (or Euro) contracts to maintain and upgrade the equipment. They want to do as little work as necessary and spend as little as they can. They’d been paying them the same amount every year for 20 years, but in that time, the dollar is worth less but the equipment needs more work, but they can’t really do the job because that would cost more than they are making. Even though the gas those pipes are carrying is priceless (not really, there is a price), the pipelines certainly aren’t treated that way.

So, eventually it is going to blow. However, now that it finally happened, there happens to be a war on. The politicians and contractors responsible for the deterioration of the pipe would be sweating bullets if this happened in a time of peace, but now they can point their fingers at some external event outside their control.

Like in Gilliam’s BRAZIL where the government has lowered safety standards so much that appliances and utilities are just starting to blow up and kill people. So the government’s solution isn’t to raise standards, but they blame the deaths on an anti-government terrorist group that doesn’t exist.

Either that or we’ll learn in a decade or two that it was actually really motivated eco-terrorists who saw this as the best chance to get Europe off the gas.

Or a Russian sub did it. However, that could have either been accidental or done intentionally. Russian crews stow vodka as a necessary provision, I’ve heard

Sean Robinson wrote:

Who in the party that handles that stuff thought that was a good idea? So stupid, but a nice gift to the rest of the political spectrum.

I’m starting to develop a theory about political parties.

Remember how crappy people like Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey… Al Franken etc were big contributors and participants in the Democratic Party and then when the scandals hit, the party didn’t stand by them. Democrats, especially progressives, were rightly outraged and the loudest voices for their downfall.

Well, I think when contributors saw that Donald Trump could basically tea-bag a homeless guy in Times Square in broad daylight and hardly any Republicans would hold him accountable for it – – and now all these right wingers are impervious to scandal too – – I think some major donors switched. You may not get the moral virtue image supporting liberals, but at least the conservatives don’t turn on their own. What’s the point of appearing moral, if you can’t get away with anything behind the curtains.

So, the Right Wing parties are seeing this and thinking…

“Hey, the worse our candidates are, the more money we make and our constituents don’t care. We still win elections. Am I getting that, right?”

If the members of the party don’t control it, money will — and the party, its candidates and its members are going to suffer for it.

Maybe? I don’t know.

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Sean Robinson, Todd

garjones wrote:

Not a great answer, sounds pretty tone deaf, but the truth is all governments are a little impotent in these matters. They can mitigate to a certain degree but if we could control the economy we’d barely have any worries. We’d set interest rates, inflation and growth all at 2% and wonderfully plan for the future.

The big thing is we’ve been here before, in the early 1970s, and I don’t think many took the lessons they should have. Which is that the cartel that runs the oil business sets the rates as they fancy with no relation to the cost of extracting it. Oil is worth $3-4 a barrel, it was last year, will be next year, all the rest is manipulation and unimaginable profit. It all connects because everything you buy needs energy to produce and distribute it. Bread costs more because the van driving it to the shop now pays twice as much for petrol.

I think the difference this time is technology means it’s potentially easier to break from it than 50 years ago. Labour in the UK have a feasible plan to be energy self sufficient in 8 years using renewables and electric vehicles (and yes some nuclear and they have some oil in the North Sea). Gulf states know this, in some some senses they are pushing for a last hurrah. The UAE started it but Qatar and later Saudi Arabia have followed by pumping the ridiculous profits into other revenue streams. Saudi Arabia are cutting production to lift profits to build their nutso Neon city. Which looks impressive but who the fuck wants to live in Saudi Arabia? I know people who have for work and generally it is regarded as a profitable prison sentence, you do your 3 years, grab the piles of tax free money and never go back.

True, it’s just a stupid answer. It’s also a self inflicted wound because she could have pointed to things they have done to mitigate the effects of the inflation. (They have done something, but not enough)

 

I hate that Neom city by the way. I am afraid a lot of birds are going to die flying into that wall.

Regarding Putin and Ukraine, I think Russia is going to take an approach like the Taliban in Afghanistan, waiting till the West is no longer interested. I don’t think it is a coincidence Putin started mobilizing the troops after the US left Afghanistan. With the economic warfare that is going on and the sabotage we are seeing now I think it might work, but it is a bit unlikely. The Russians severely overestimated what support they might have had in Eastern Ukraine. So instead of the US campaign in Afghanistan (with Russia playing the role of the Taliban), it may work out for them like their own campaign in Afghanistan when the militias drove them out.

 

I think Crimea is a red line however. There is traditionally a lot of support for Russia in Crimea. I think we should really encourage Zelensky not to mess with Crimea.

Afghanistan approach? It took the US and UK 20 years to conclude they were getting nowhere.  There is far more local incentive for the UK and EU and NATO to keep supporting Ukraine, no matter how bored the US might get.

As it’s been from the start, this all continues to be a massive fuck-up by Putin.  He’s the guy who yells at the Baltic states and Finland:

“If you join NATO we will invade you!”

Then, a short while later:

“Why the fuck are you all joining NATO?”

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Ben wrote:

Afghanistan approach? It took the US and UK 20 years to conclude they were getting nowhere.  There is far more local incentive for the UK and EU and NATO to keep supporting Ukraine, no matter how bored the US might get.

As it’s been from the start, this all continues to be a massive fuck-up by Putin.  He’s the guy who yells at the Baltic states and Finland:

“If you join NATO we will invade you!”

Then, a short while later:

“Why the fuck are you all joining NATO?”

Well let’s see in 20 years…

 

Like I said in my post, I agree Putin miscalculated. But I’m not sure where this will end. We’re just at the start of this.

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In 20 years, unless Russia ceases being a bastard to its neighbours, they’ll still be NATO members.  Hell, after the way they invaded Ukraine, Russia could behave itself and its neighbours would still be wary of it.

Part of where it ends is a UK and EU not needing Russian gas, which will probably be reached in the next couple of years.

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Todd

‘She’s not bright and she’s a bully’: Voters and GOP officials in Marjorie Taylor Greene’s hometown have grown ’embarrassed’ by her

Grown embarrassed? What was their breaking point?

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garjones, Sean Robinson, Todd

Regarding the US getting “bored”: polls are showing that support for supporting the war is as high as ever, maybe higher. There’s this idea that the American people get bored with long wars (Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc…) and demand their government pulls out. But there’s research (and I completely forget the name of the guy who published it) that shows it’s a myth. Americans don’t get bored with long wars, they get bored with wars they are *losing*. As long as they see their tax dollars are supporting a winning side, they’ll keep supporting.

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Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle

JRCarter wrote:

‘She’s not bright and she’s a bully’: Voters and GOP officials in Marjorie Taylor Greene’s hometown have grown ’embarrassed’ by her

Grown embarrassed? What was their breaking point?

Who cares if she’s still going to easily win re-election. We can all see that she’s a toxic dick, but I’m pretty sure that’s what her voters like about her.

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JRCarter, lorcan_nagle, Todd

DavidM wrote:

Regarding the US getting “bored”: polls are showing that support for supporting the war is as high as ever, maybe higher. There’s this idea that the American people get bored with long wars (Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc…) and demand their government pulls out. But there’s research (and I completely forget the name of the guy who published it) that shows it’s a myth. Americans don’t get bored with long wars, they get bored with wars they are *losing*. As long as they see their tax dollars are supporting a winning side, they’ll keep supporting.

I do wonder how they would research that in a reliable way. In general though, I imagine a lot of this is just asking people what they think – but people who are bored with something are not going to be motivated to answer questions about it, so I have to wonder if survivorship bias could be overcome.

On top of that though, a lot of people’s responses are manipulatable. Like with recessions – the more the media simply reports on the “likelihood” of a recession, it affects people’s spending behavior and financial choices and, as a result, recessions become more likely.

It is all speculation really, but I think the conflict in Ukraine is a bit more like the Russian occupation  of Afghanistan than the US one. Russia invades a neutral country, and the West supplies it with weapons, eventually leading to Russian defeat. It also carries the same risk for the West, empowering problematic groups like Azov, possibly creating an unstable region that eventually hurts the West in the long run.

Russia was already an unstable region. They have started or supported 15 different wars on their borders in the post-Soviet era. The hope is that by fighting back against them now it will create more stability. At least after this war they will be too exhausted to invade the Baltic states for a while.

Also, nobody has done more to empower Azov than the Russians. Before this war, they were a bit of a national embarrassment. Now, they are national heroes for standing in the front line against Russia and basically performing miracles. They’re probably going to be idolized and emulated by this generation of Ukrainian kids. Yeah, good job with the de-Nazification, Putin.

 

Meanwhile the right wing party leader Baudet here is now actually praising Russia for invading Ukraine, saying they’re “fighting the globalists”. In the same interview he also said the existence of the USA is the greatest tragedy in recorded history. He’s really gone stark raving mad. And he gets to sit in on parliamentary briefings on the war. Some people want the party to be banned for treasonous support to an enemy, but I am not sure whta the rules are in that regard.

DavidM wrote:

Russia was already an unstable region.

I mean Ukraine. Of course it is unstable now because of the war, but that is another parallel with Afghanistan which was being completely butchered by the Soviets. If Azov comes out of the war as heroes, like some of the jihadist groups in Afghanistan, that could be another danger for Europe. But it could be that that danger is exaggerated, certainly Putin exaggerates it.

 

(Of course Russia is the bigger danger, but the same was true with the Soviets in Afghanistan. They were a bigger danger than the jihadists we empowered)

To put it in perspective, the Azov Regiment was no more than 2500 men. There are estimates that the Proud Boys in America have more members.

Sure, 2500 Nazis is 2500 Nazis too many. But I don’t believe it makes Ukraine a “Nazi state”. I know ordinary Ukrainians, and they are no more Nazi than me. (For fairness: I also know ordinary Russians, and the same is true.)

There’s a danger that the experience of this war will push Ukraine more to Right, but so far I’m not seeing it. There has never, in the past 30 years, been any indication that Ukraine has any ambitions outside their own borders, and that doesn’t seem to have changed. So I think that when they come out of this war as winners (that’s not an “if”, by the way), they’re not going to suddenly start flying planes into large buildings in order to promote their ideology.

Yes, they have the Azov Regiment. But we have the Metropolitan Police. Nobody is perfect.

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Todd, Ben

Right wing extremism is a Europe wide problem, it’s pretty much everywhere now.  And in some cases, Hungary and UK, it’s having far more success than in Ukraine.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

DavidM wrote:

To put it in perspective, the Azov Regiment was no more than 2500 men. There are estimates that the Proud Boys in America have more members.

 

But the proud boys aren’t part of the US military. The Ukraine has awarded some neo nazis the highest national title “Hero of the Ukraine”. I do think it is concerning but of course Putin uses it as justification for his invasion which is despicable.

 

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

But the proud boys aren’t part of the US military.

Don’t worry, US Law enforcement and to some degree the military are infested with white supremacist groups too

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/prevalence-white-supremacists-law-enforcement-demands-drastic-change-2022-05-12/

https://rollcall.com/2021/02/16/pentagon-report-reveals-inroads-white-supremacists-have-made-in-military/

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Al-x, Todd

There seems to be a “don’t” too many in that sentence, Lorcan.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Meanwhile the right wing party leader Baudet here is now actually praising Russia for invading Ukraine, saying they’re “fighting the globalists”. In the same interview he also said the existence of the USA is the greatest tragedy in recorded history. He’s really gone stark raving mad.

Jesus. The right wing here are against the war and trying to side with Russia (including a few MoP of the AfD who tried to go to Russia to get first-hand impressions of the war from the Russian side), but they haven’t been this outspoken or just batshit – at least yet. With rising gas prices, they may become more bold.

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lorcan_nagle

Baudet is really crazy. In one interview he mentioned he uses 4chan as a news source. Luckily he lost a lot of his early support, he has like 3 % in the polls. But I think his supporters could be dangerous.

The right is fractured. You have Wilders’s anti-Islam party, which has about 14 % in the current polls, and then another bunch of parties who are right wing to some extent. SGP are the orthodox Calvinists, BBB is a new populist agrarian party…and there are a few others. I think if you take those together they have a third of all the votes, but I am not sure if they would want to cooperate in a government coalition. BBB and SGP would probably refuse to form a coalition with Wilders or Baudet. And even if they would cooperate they still need some centrist party like the VVD or CDA to get a majority and both of those parties have ruled out working together with Wilders and Baudet. So the chance we are going to have a right wing government any time soon is zero.

 

Roughly speaking the right has a third, the center has a third and the left has a third. But the center and the left will never cooperate with Baudet or Wilders so the only option right now is for the center and the left to work together, if they want to get a majority in parliament.

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Christian

Dave wrote:

garjones wrote:

It’ll be interesting to see him go head to head with Truss who in her recent radio interviews left long excruciating pauses when asked difficult questions.

I did feel that in their first PMQs together there was a welcome sense that they were actually having an argument over something of substance, and genuinely presenting alternative philosophies for government, rather than the empty rhetoric and panto of the Johnson years. It was a refreshing change.

Once they get back to regular PMQs, I expect Starmer to do his usual job of calmly but effectively pointing out the flaws in his opponent’s argument.

That didn’t really work very well against Johnson, as he effectively refused to engage with the questions in good faith and instead spouted boilerplate general lines about the government’s achievements and/or jokes that he thought would get a good reaction from the Tory MPs.

Now that Truss is in such a pickle, it will be interesting to see whether she continues to try and engage in good faith and defend her position, or whether she falls back on the same kind of empty bluster as Johnson.

My sense is that she wouldn’t be very good at that, as she has no obvious natural charisma or wit, so I feel like either way things could go very badly for her.

I think today we saw exactly this. Maybe one of the worst PM performances at PMQs that I can remember.

I guess a single initial week of sincere engagement from Truss is all we get.

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Ben

But sincere engagement with reality or fantasy? Every headline I’ve seen says fantasy.

Still, Dave watched it so I don’t have to – thank you for your service.

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Dave

I didn’t see it on TV, but reading the highlights later – apparently the Labour benches but not the Tories applauded Truss when she entered the chamber. Is this true, or is someone winding me up?

So looks like the rumour is that Kwarteng is going to be sacked today.

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Todd, Ben, Martin Smith, lorcan_nagle

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Confirmed just a couple of minutes after I posted that.

Odds on Truss still being PM by Christmas?

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Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle

I’ve got a packet of Weetabix that’s lasted longer than Kwarteng did as chancellor.

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Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle, DavidM

As nuts as it would be I’m at the point of rooting for Charles to fire the government and force a general election.

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Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle, garjones, Dave

Jeremy Hunt is next on the chopping block.

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Ben

lorcan_nagle wrote:

Jeremy Hunt is next on the chopping block.

Well on the plus side at least nobody can make fun of his name like they did with KamiKwasi.

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Christian, Ben, DavidM, lorcan_nagle

Actions speaking louder than words:

“In order to avoid speaking to reporters as he arrived home Jeremy Hunt briefly shut his wife out of the house.”

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Christian, Todd, Ben, Dave

Christian wrote:

The right wing here are against the war and trying to side with Russia (including a few MoP of the AfD who tried to go to Russia to get first-hand impressions of the war from the Russian side), but they haven’t been this outspoken or just batshit – at least yet. With rising gas prices, they may become more bold.

I think much of this is also part of the Russian propaganda push. To frame it as a war against globalism – world domination by the USA, EU, IMF, NATO, the Bilderberg Group, etc.

The Nazis used similar tactics to keep America out of the war from the invasion of Poland until Pearl Harbor. They manipulated public opinion by appealing to tangentially related causes that would incentivize resistance to going to war.

Ironically, Goebbels learned a lot of his skills from reading Edward Bernays, Sigmund Freud’s nephew, who was naturally also Jewish.

The manipulation of the American mind: Edward Bernays and the birth of public relations (theconversation.com)

However, honestly, the Soviet Union was already doing this from the beginning and Russia has only gotten better at it.

And they’ve been very patient in laying the ground work, with RT becoming ever more popular in conspiracy-minded and right-wing circles.

Putin prepared a lot of things about this war incredibly well. It’s a shame he had no idea what a shit state his army was in.

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The Soviets have always been planting “Merica bad – Soviets good” propaganda. What Putin is doing is a continuation of that, but appealing more to the right than the left like the Soviets did. It’s a way of sowing division and lowering defenses. (Of course the US does it too against Russia)

 

At a certain point Russia doesn’t even have to create the propaganda anymore, the useful idiots like Jimmy Dore and Max Blumenthal are doing it for them, and the people making memes on facebook. It’s a self perpetuating meme really.

 

This stuff really sticks in the mind, one time when I was on summer school in the Czech Republic I ad a discussion with a teacher who believed black people were still regularly lynched in the US. There is still a subset of people in (mostly Eastern) European countries who believe the West and NATO are irredeemably fascist. Of course Russia is still saying NATO is fascist, but now they’re also saying they’re “globohomo” and spreading LGBT ideology.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

I ad a discussion with a teacher who believed black people were still regularly lynched in the US.

Lynchings haven’t stopped in the US, you know

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/08/modern-day-mississippi-lynchings/

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Sean Robinson, Todd

I thanked your post, but more like thank you for opening my eyes, but wish i could hate your post.

Don’t have words, or more appropriately I don’t have polite words.

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njerry, lorcan_nagle

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

The Soviets have always been planting “Merica bad – Soviets good” propaganda. What Putin is doing is a continuation of that, but appealing more to the right than the left like the Soviets did. It’s a way of sowing division and lowering defenses. (Of course the US does it too against Russia)

You know, I think the horseshoe theory is mostly bullshit but when it comes to attitudes towards Russia, it holds pretty true because at least in Germany the far left and the far right are both in love with Putin. Of course on the left that’s mostly the Die Linke party which consists in great part of East German nostalgics, so their Russia image goes back directly to DDR times.

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Arjan Dirkse

I didn’t know that about Die Linke. Are they as mad about defending Putin as AfD?

 

We don’t really have a Russophile left wing party here, the closest to that is the Socialist party, who may have some members who lean in that direction. They had a youth wing called “Communist platform” which was ejected from the party over their radicalism and I think Communist platform are calling the war in Ukraine an imperialist war by NATO and they don’t want to support it. (although looking it up now they also condemn Putin and Russia.)

The times demand it, thus the return of… Banzai!

Who will last longer – Liz Truss as PM or a wet lettuce?

Place your bets now!

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Thank goodness Jeremy Hunt has managed to save us all by putting us back in the exact same shit position we were in right before the Kwarteng budget (albeit with a few billion extra in needless economic damage now added on top).

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Martin Smith, Todd, lorcan_nagle

Ben wrote:

The times demand it, thus the return of… Banzai!

Who will last longer – Liz Truss as PM or a wet lettuce?

Place your bets now!

Wet Lettuce for Prime Minister!!!

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Ben

Kanye West To Acquire Conservative Social Network Parler

Supposedly, West sold his music rights to Jay-Z long ago and a lot of other deals are in Kim Kardashian’s name so when it says he is “acquiring” Parler, I have a feeling little, if any, of his money is going into this. He may be acquiring it in name only.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

I didn’t know that about Die Linke. Are they as mad about defending Putin as AfD?

They’re pretty split about it. Some prominent party members left after one of the most popular people in the Linke, Sarah Wagenknecht, gave a speech criticising the government for “waging economic war” on Russia.

It’s odd, it’s more like Russia is waging an economic war against itself. But also in a way against the West.

 

In the meanwhile Baudet is going full David Icke, he is now saying we’re ruled by a cabal of reptiles. I’m really starting to wonder if he’s being threatened by Putin to say these things or something, he is sounding more unhinged by the day. He looks like shit too, frankly. He could be mentally unwell, or using a lot of drugs or something. Dunno.

 

I wonder if we would win the “craziest Euopean politician award” with him. Then again there is Marian Kotleba.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Kotleba

 

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Christian

Todd wrote:

Kanye West To Acquire Conservative Social Network Parler

Supposedly, West sold his music rights to Jay-Z long ago and a lot of other deals are in Kim Kardashian’s name so when it says he is “acquiring” Parler, I have a feeling little, if any, of his money is going into this. He may be acquiring it in name only.

on the other hand, Parlor isn’t worth crap. Nobody uses it. It has about 0.02% of Twitter’s daily active users. It’s a complete afterthought in the social media landscape. Someone could probably offer a pizza and a lottery ticket for it and would still be overpaying.

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Todd, Ben

Worth noting that Parler’s CEO is Candace Owens’ husband, and Kanye’s been hanging around with her a lot. So it’s probably some sort of scam or scamola to make them richer.

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JRCarter, Todd, Chris D

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

We don’t really have a Russophile left wing party here

The left stance can be too often just whatever America (and Allies) does or supports is bad because historically a lot of it has been. They lose sight of the fact that yes the US is flawed and yes so is Ukraine but neither of them started or wanted this conflict. Russia did.

 

I think it is very much  a minority view that takes a stance like that but they do exist.

There is a problem that any compromise for peace, like we’ll accept Crimea is yours, justifies that invasion is a legitimate approach.

Huh, just read about this. Honestly I think Zelensky is as batshit insane as Putin. (Ukraine is still on the right side in this war, I just think Zelensky isn’t right in the head, judging by some of the things he said.)

 

Braverman is now gone as Home Secretary too, with the rumour being that her replacement will be… oh fuck, Grant Shapps.

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garjones, Todd, Ben, lorcan_nagle

If the keep going at this rate, every person in the UK will have been a minister at some point.

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garjones, Todd

Fuck me, I have never seen anything nearing the chaos in Westminster in the past few weeks.

This guy is talking about his own party live on the BBC:

🔥🔥 This is an extraordinary outburst from Charles Walker(Tory MP) 🔥🔥 pic.twitter.com/Hw1MSHcTFa

— Haggis_UK 🇬🇧 🇪🇺 (@Haggis_UK) October 19, 2022

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Dave, Todd

In a very normal day on normal island: Home Secretary has resigned Chief whip has resigned Fighting in voting lobby PM abstains on her own vote Reporter calls MP a cunt live on air

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DavidM, Todd, lorcan_nagle, Ben, Dave

And it’s Wednesday.

Two days of the week left, whatever will happen in them?

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Todd, Dave

Ben wrote:

And it’s Wednesday.

Two days of the week left, whatever will happen in them?

It’s ok, a week is a notoriously short time in politics.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle, Ben

Is Truss making John Major look like Winston Chrchill?

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lorcan_nagle, garjones

Todd wrote:

Is Truss making John Major look like Winston Chrchill?

Dear Lord she’s making Major look like Churchill, Lincoln, Ghandi and Mandela all rolled into one.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd, Dave

With each new Tory PM you initially think that at least they can’t be any worse than the last one. But it’s the one area where they manage to consistently exceed expectations.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Share genius, yada yada & so on….#SteveBaker

pic.twitter.com/qGvIgxHLme

— Terry Overall In The Anti Growth Coalition (@terryoverall) October 20, 2022

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lorcan_nagle, Dave

…and she’s gone.

Bye, Truss. Good fucking riddance.

(Feels like the UK is getting good at getting rid of people called Liz.)

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Ben, Todd, lorcan_nagle

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Ben, Todd, lorcan_nagle

What an absolute fuckin shambles🫣.

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garjones, Ben, Todd, lorcan_nagle

Ian Smith wrote:

What an absolute fuckin shambles🫣.

I like this more regular turnover of Prime Ministers, it’s like when they started getting guest hosts on HIGNFY, keeps things fresh from month to month.

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Ben, Ian Smith, lorcan_nagle

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Dave, Todd

Flawless victory for the lettuce then.

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Ben, lorcan_nagle, Dave

In all seriousness, is this the shortest tenure of a PM in history? If not, where does it rank?

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lorcan_nagle

Todd wrote:

In all seriousness, is this the shortest tenure of a PM in history?

Technically no, I believe Lord Bath still holds the record at two days in 1746.

In modern history though, yes by some margin.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

It’s kind of strange how so much of this mess flows from Cameron and his decision to go ahead with the Brexit referendum. It’s been a shitty 7 years for UK politics since that 2015 election and a lot of the current chaos has its roots in that.

I do feel like there needs to be some reckoning with Brexit at some point, some acknowledgement of how it has made things tangibly worse for the UK. Some future leader needs to be brave enough to address it head-on so that the country can come to terms with it and move on.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

These days I sure wish it was this easy to get rid of US politicians…

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njerry, lorcan_nagle, Todd

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

What Happened With Liz Truss in Britain? A Guide to the Basics.

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lorcan_nagle

Just when you think things can’t get any worse, there are Tories openly talking about reinstalling Johnson as PM now.

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njerry, Todd, lorcan_nagle

Dave wrote:

Just when you think things can’t get any worse, there are Tories openly talking about reinstalling Johnson as PM now.

I believe that’s called “doubling down on a bad hand”.

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lorcan_nagle

Todd wrote:

Dave wrote:

Just when you think things can’t get any worse, there are Tories openly talking about reinstalling Johnson as PM now.

I believe that’s called “doubling down on a bad hand”.

I have a slightly less polite word for him

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

Dave wrote:

I have a slightly less polite word for him

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lorcan_nagle, Dave

This would make for a great TV show, provided there were sufficient sex scenes.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

Dave wrote:

Technically no, I believe Lord Bath still holds the record at two days in 1746.

The Lord Bath one is interesting, he was asked to form a government, tried for 2 days and failed so it’s debatable he was ever officially PM so he isn’t listed on the official government site in the list of Prime Ministers.

The Duke of Wellington was also asked to lead the government, said no and Robert Peel should do it, Peel was on holiday so he filled in until he came back for 22 days. As a kind of ‘holiday cover’ that stint is also not covered in the official list.

Which is why all the press are saying TRUSS IS THE WORST, THE BIGGEST LOSER EVER.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd, Ben, Dave

garjones wrote:

Which is why all the press are saying TRUSS IS THE WORST, THE BIGGEST LOSER EVER.

I mean, it’s hard to disagree.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd, Ben, garjones

I’m invoking the Jimquisition:

The politicians are fucking exhausting.

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

saga wrote:

This would make for a great TV show, provided there were sufficient sex scenes.

So you do want Boris Johnson back?

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lorcan_nagle

Horny Honey Monster 2: The Return

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

This guy in the glasses muttering "bollocks" (as some baby toff chunters about Boris being the only choice) is my new hero. What a ledge! #bbcqt #BorisJohnson pic.twitter.com/RsKAOZoRe3

— Kerry Gooderson #FBPE (@Kerry_Gooderson) October 20, 2022

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Martin Smith, Todd, lorcan_nagle, Ben

pic.twitter.com/WAnBBiXeMh

— spooky Tom Walton the skellington (@edgeblend) October 20, 2022

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lorcan_nagle, Todd

After just 44 days in office, Liz Truss is eligible to collect a £115,000 allowance for the rest of her life

Nice work if you can get it.