Music Thread

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This is a thread to talk about music.

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Deep Purple News! (In a way …)

SteveUK wrote:

One thing about Waters in concert I discovered is that his shows are very well organised. That’s good and bad.
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Well not bad, but it does mean that once you’ve seen him do that show, you’ve seen every performance he’s going to give until he changes the whole show for the next tour. There’s real heart, but no spontaneity.

Paul McCartney’s the same (same songs/setlist, same “banter” in between songs) – I get the appeal though; you’re not ripping anyone off; everyone gets the same show, no matter what night or what venue they see it at.

I’m in two minds on the consistent/changeable nature of concerts. On the one hand, my favourite live bands are ones I can see multiple times on a tour and never see the same set — even when the list of songs is the same, the best elements of a show are the spontaneous jams and solos that happen between the standard parts. As weird as it may sound, the highlights of a gig are often the places where somebody makes a mistake.
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On the other hand, I’ve seen orchestras playing music that is obviously the exact same set of notes played in the exact same order, with no deviation allowed, and if they didn’t do that I’d be quite disappointed.
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“Scored” music (whether formally scored like classical music, or just a band playing the same rehearsed arrangement every night) still works, because you will still never personally hear the music in exactly the same way twice. The changes may be more subtle, but they will be there: in the playing, in the environment, and in you yourself. You will notice and feel something different each time.
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But still … I’m much less likely to go and see a concert twice in a row if I think the second night is going to be the same set as the first, whereas I’ll go and see a band that knows how jam several times in the same week.

DavidM wrote:

As weird as it may sound, the highlights of a gig are often the places where somebody makes a mistake.

One concert moment I will never forget was during a Police show at Madison Square Garden. As they began the intro to one song, a string broke on Andy Summers’ guitar; while a tech came on-stage to help him switch it out, Sting began plucking his stand-up bass and sang a rendition of the standard “Yellow Rose of Texas”. A unique moment probably never to be repeated during that tour.

John Legend and Kelly Clarkson update Baby It’s Cold Outside for #MeToo era

He said the new version included the lines: “What will my friends think? (I think they should rejoice) / If I have one more drink? (It’s your body, and your choice).”

Way to suck the atmosphere out of that song.

I probably said this before when the subject came up, but part of the allure of that song was about the female singers ‘protesting too much’ in terms of their reluctance to stay. The way they sang made it clear that there was a mutual attraction there.

njerry wrote:

One concert moment I will never forget was during a Police show at Madison Square Garden. As they began the intro to one song, a string broke on Andy Summers’ guitar; while a tech came on-stage to help him switch it out, Sting began plucking his stand-up bass and sang a rendition of the standard “Yellow Rose of Texas”. A unique moment probably never to be repeated during that tour.

To me, the difference between a proper musician and a “pop star” is the ability to do that
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(Gar will now tell the Prince anecdote (which does sound like a genuinely awesome moment ) )

https://www.cleveland.com/life-and-culture/g66l-2019/10/0a190b19ff3130/100-most-important-bands-since-the-beatles.html?fbclid=IwAR1QRzVmcfDeVkIsb7VGVbTRrMJdhFmg9G8fL8O_qk4KH3q5uQSl2k_NSIA

Another day, another listicle – David, Deep Purple are at 49.
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Radiohead are at 20.
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The top three are the Stones, Velvet Underground, and Jimi Hendrix Experience at #1.

Not a look in for Oasis.

And I think the Strokes deserve better than #100.

I like to defend lists as good talking points and it’s all subjective etc but wow that one is a complete load of bollocks.

Why?

Those bands are the opposite of shit and the list is diverse. You’ve got parliament/funkadelic and slayer.

The order isn’t great.

I don’t hate it though.

I’ve not seen such a list before where there’s an honourable mention for each slot. That approach… doesn’t really make sense. I mean, if someone is an honourable mention for #99, they should be #100, no?

Yeah, the honourable mention thing is dumb.

But some of the entries turn the tide for me.

Things like CAN in the list win over.

[DavidM]

The “honorable mention” thing feels like “We don’t actually care about the band but we want to represent this sub-genre so here’s a couple of options”.
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I don’t even know several bands on the list, but it seems to be a very American-centric list so I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. Even though it looks like a load of bollocks (and it got the title of In The Court of the Crimson King wrong)

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by DavidM.

Of course you’re a King Crimson fan – Have you seen Mandy?

Anonymous wrote:

Have you seen Mandy

The Nicholas Cage film? No, I haven’t. I know Starless (I think?) is in the soundtrack though.
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Is it recommended? I know literally nothing about it, other than it stars Cage and has the KC song.

[garjones]

Anonymous wrote:

Why?

100 bands based primarily on their influence on music and the journalist thinks obscure punk acts or ‘tribute punk acts’ like The Strokes had a more lasting influence than Run DMC, Public Enemy, NWA or any of the hip-hop bands in history. He even includes Red Hot Chilli Peppers who’s entire thing was mixing rap vocals with rock and Blondie who did “Rapture”. 3 references to ‘rap’ in the article, all from white bands who somehow came into it by accident as there was nobody who could have influenced them.
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Now I’d buy that if his image of a ‘band’ is a traditional guitar and drums combo, but no, he’s got Kraftwerk in there, playing sequencers and pocket calculators. You have every other pop song in the charts heavily influenced by house music of the early 90s but not one act included that could have influenced it. That’s a bit more forgivable as they are usually solo artists but there are bands to choose from, Faithless a good choice as Rollo popularised the power ‘hands in the air’ sound that’s played on the radio continuously now.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by garjones.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by garjones.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by garjones.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by garjones.

All of thoese “honorable mentions make it more of a Top 200 list.

Somebody I know has just sold a limited-edition CD to a Japanese collector for £480.
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I own a copy of the same CD
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Not that I would ever part with it.
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But let this be a lesson to you kids with your iTunes and Spotify accounts: try selling an mp3 to support you in your old age and see how many hot meals it buys you

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2019/oct/31/best-streaming-service-mp3-pays-artists
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Digital Music News has tried to establish how much various music services pay for streaming. According to its analysis, Napster pays the highest rate at $0.019 per stream, followed by Jay-Z’s Tidal at $0.0125 and Apple at $0.00735 per stream. YouTube pays the lowest rate of only $0.00069 per stream. Spotify is now, it seems, somewhere in the middle ground, paying about $0.00437 per stream.

That isn’t a lot of money for most of the artists with music on Spotify, because 10,000 plays only pays $43.70. However, a song that gets 10m streams will earn $43,700, and big hits can earn a lot. Ed Sheeran’s Shape of You has been streamed more than 2bn times, which would be worth $8.74m at current rates. Three other Sheeran songs have been streamed more than a billion times, according to Wikipedia’s list.

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Wife has a Spotify account (we had Apple music too for a while) and I’ve used it in that it’s been on in the car for road trips. I was tempted to give it a go for my commute under the 1 month free trial deal but we only have one credit card and she used it for her account.

Every musician I know who has expressed an opinion hates Spotify, but most of them feel they have to be on it otherwise they are losing opportunities to be “discovered” by a new audience. I don’t believe that ever happens, though. Anecdotally, you always get that one guy who says “But I bought your album after finding you on Spotify!”, which is great. But if that’s one sale out of every 1000 who have listened to your album for effectively nothing, is it worth it? Ok, that one sale is better than zero sales, and you can argue that the other 1000 would never have bought the CD anyway so you’ve lost nothing in real terms. Nothing except the piece of your soul and life ambition that dies when you get a Spotify saying “1000 people listened to the music you spent three months pouring your sweat and tears into, here’s $4.23”
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But the CEO of Spotify has a net worth of 2.5 Billion dollars, so, yay?
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I think Spotify is one of the worst things to happen to the music industry.

The video is from three years ago but gives a good overview of Spotify:

garjones wrote:

Tim wrote:

Why?

100 bands based primarily on their influence on music and the journalist thinks obscure punk acts or ‘tribute punk acts’ like The Strokes had a more lasting influence than Run DMC, Public Enemy, NWA or any of the hip-hop bands in history. He even includes Red Hot Chilli Peppers who’s entire thing was mixing rap vocals with rock and Blondie who did “Rapture”. 3 references to ‘rap’ in the article, all from white bands who somehow came into it by accident as there was nobody who could have influenced them.
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Now I’d buy that if his image of a ‘band’ is a traditional guitar and drums combo, but no, he’s got Kraftwerk in there, playing sequencers and pocket calculators. You have every other pop song in the charts heavily influenced by house music of the early 90s but not one act included that could have influenced it. That’s a bit more forgivable as they are usually solo artists but there are bands to choose from, Faithless a good choice as Rollo popularised the power ‘hands in the air’ sound that’s played on the radio continuously now.

Okay I accept your point.

Also, I don’t want to get kicked from the board.

But, mostly its about your very well made point. Also, you’re very handsome.

DavidM wrote:

Tim wrote:

Have you seen Mandy

The Nicholas Cage film? No, I haven’t. I know Starless (I think?) is in the soundtrack though.
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Is it recommended? I know literally nothing about it, other than it stars Cage and has the KC song.

Yeah, i think it opens with Starless. The soundtrack is mostly King Crimson.

It’s an interesting film – it’s about otherworldly demon bikers and psychadelic space cultists. And there’s lots of blood, and there’s like this cool axe thing.

It’s an interesting film. It’s actually quite a cool film, but im hesitant to recommend it to you, not knowing if you have a specific taste for those things. On the other hand, it’s possible its so much up your alley as to be … well, i’ll let your imagination finish that sentence.

DavidM wrote:

Every musician I know who has expressed an opinion hates Spotify, but most of them feel they have to be on it otherwise they are losing opportunities to be “discovered” by a new audience. I don’t believe that ever happens, though. Anecdotally, you always get that one guy who says “But I bought your album after finding you on Spotify!”, which is great. But if that’s one sale out of every 1000 who have listened to your album for effectively nothing, is it worth it?

The problem with all creative careers is getting discovered.
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There’s no real apprenticeship, no board or bar exam to pass, no list of paper qualification which will get anyone a genuinely creative job.
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I help out a few short films a year to meet new people and they’re all doing these projects on a shoe string. You can look at years of work, scrimping, saving, begging and borrowing and say, “They lead to nothing” and that’s true, right up to the point where a discovery does happen.
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It’s the body of work that has paid off for every creative person that I know.
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But I’ve also worked with people have yet to make it and, sad as it is, some never will.
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However, if there’s a better way to “get discovered” then I’ve not seen it yet.
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None of which excuses Spotify making more money off artists than the artists do, but I don’t have an alternative for people on their way up?

How do TV streaming services compensate content creators?
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Is Mark Millar going to get $0.00437 for every person who watches Jupiter’s Legacy?
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If not, what’s the difference? Why can’t Spotify be more like Netflix and keep (presumably) everybody happy?

DavidM wrote:

If not, what’s the difference?

Don’t take this as defending it but Spotify is not commissioning new material in the main. It’s just a conduit, like Netflix or even HBO used to be.
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If Mark had produced a show for Channel 4 and then Netflix picked it up for later stream then yes it is going to net a similar $0.00437 per viewing.

Ok, that’s a fair point. Each spotify stream is like “reprint royalties”. But you’ve made me wonder if Spotify will one day move into commissioning original content, as Netflix has? Or, will record labels develop their own exclusive streaming platforms for their own artists, the way Disney are now doing?
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Which has just made me realise, it’s already happened (on a small scale). Neal Morse has his own subscription-based streaming platform for his own back catalogue plus a few other bands he’s been involved with:
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https://waterfallstreaming.com
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I have no idea how profitable he’s finding it. He’s not an Ed Sheeran scale artist so his subscribers must number in the hundreds, maybe thousands, but nowhere near the billions who stream Spotify. Also, he’s totally ignoring the outreach potential of streaming, because nobody’s going to sign up to this unless they’re already a Neal Morse fan

Netflix has operated a buy out system for shows and movies, where they pay more upfront but then offer no additional fees after that. Whether the show drops dead or becomes a breakout hit makes no difference to that payment, but it does (of course) affect future negotiations for future projects.
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That model is shifting now, and we’ll see more experiments in how and when creators get paid over the life of a show.
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Millar sold his company to Netflix, so he got that money and now he receives a salary for running the Millarworld division of Netflix.
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I believe he’s doing quite well out of it.

Tangentially related, as a counter to the popular wisdom that CD sales don’t matter because artists make most of their money from touring, someone I follow has just tweeted:
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I actually made more from recording this year than live. Taking a band with me meant I actually paid to play every gig and lost money. Pre-orders from really kind supporters meant I could finish my new album. I think there are creative ways to be found..

— R I S E (@RISE_Musician) October 31, 2019

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As with many things in the music industry, it only works for a few in the top tier. Not everybody is Ed Sheeran or Madonna or Mick Jagger (pick your decade; it has always been so).

DavidM wrote:

But you’ve made me wonder if Spotify will one day move into commissioning original content, as Netflix has?

There was a story a year or so back that Spotify had some works composed for them on a ‘work for hire’ basis and were shoving them into popular playlists. Meaning they didn’t have to pay royalties on those plays.
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It kind of died away so not sure if it worked.
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Tidal did some exclusive stuff for a while but I think that was mainly bands protesting that they got paid less on other platforms so restricted to just one.
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It wouldn’t surprise me if one of them would actually sign a popular artist but I don’t know the finances on it. The article Andrew linked to says they are losing money anyway, then again so is Netflix.

DavidM wrote:

but most of them feel they have to be on it otherwise they are losing opportunities to be “discovered” by a new audience

On the other hand, using wife as an example, she’s a big fan of Joanna Newsom who is not on Spotify. So wife has to listen to locally saved mp3s of the albums (bought as physical CDs and ripped) on her laptop or phone. As a result Newsome is missing out on (admittedly tiny) royalties.

In the comments under that Guardian piece someone mentions that the amounts paid by Spotify et al are more generous than those paid by radio stations (in the UK at least).

A good place to discover new music is Bandcamp: https://bandcamp.com/
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If you buy music here, about 80-85% of the sales go to the artists: https://bandcamp.com/fair_trade_music_policy
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Bandcamp Fair Trade Music Policy
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Bandcamp believes that music is an indispensable part of culture, and for that culture to thrive, artists must be compensated fairly and transparently for their work.
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We’re proud of the fact that when you choose to pay an artist on Bandcamp, your money reaches them quickly, and in a way that is simple to explain and understand. Our business, which was founded in 2008 and has been profitable since 2012, is based on taking a revenue share of sales. Our share is 15% on digital items, and 10% on physical goods. Payment processor fees are separate and vary depending on the size of the transaction, but for an average size purchase, amount to an additional 4-7%. The remainder, usually 80-85%, goes directly to the artist, and we pay out daily.
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Since we only make money when artists make a lot more money, our interests remain aligned with those of the community we serve. It’s a straightforward approach, and one we’re happy to say works well. Fans have paid artists and independent labels $428 million using Bandcamp, and $8.3 million in the past 30 days alone. Thank you for being a part of a fair, sustainable music economy!

I buy most of my new music from Bandcamp these days. If I haven’t bought it directly from the artist, I’ve probably bought it from Bandcamp (which is pretty much the same thing, the artist fulfills the request, Bandcamp is just a listing site, like ebay).
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I have actually known someone say, “You can buy the new CD from the label’s site or from our own Bandcamp, please use Bandcamp because we get a bigger cut.” Which on the face of it seems crazy — how can going through a middleman work out better? — until you work out that it’s actually the record label that is the middleman in this equation, and Bandcamp is a portal directly to the artist.
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Having said that, I’ve never used Bandcamp to “discover” new music. I go there to buy music I have already discovered. I know it has a feature where they will mail you recommendations, and I think they have newsletter pages with featured artists, but I’ve never used any of that. I wonder how many people do?
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Edit to add: I should also have said that Bandcamp is probably the best e-commerce site I have ever used, it’s clean, simple, intuitive, informative, and doesn’t bombard you with rubbish when all you want to do it buy the CD you’ve come looking for. It’s a really pleasant experience. Sometimes I go to the Bandcamp site (or app) just to look at my page of purchases and admire them

This is my Bandcamp page, showing everything I’ve bought. I can go into any of these albums and play it directly from the site, or download to play on another device:

I listen to an indie station on satellite radio and Bandcamp is a big source of new music for them.

Haven’t heard this song in a while:

Somebody I know just sent me this clip from a Sunn O))) gig he was at this week. He went fro the support act, and didn’t know what was coming next:

You like a broad spectrum of music. Did I do well to survive 20mins of this before heading for the exit or am I completely missing something. The fact that the place was packed (probably 25% bigger than the Dome) & remained so after Anna’s set suggests I don’t get it

My reply:

I saw Stephen O’Malley (from Sunn O))) ) a few years ago playing with F.M. Einheit. Einheit “played” an electric drill carving up lumps of concrete. It was … interesting. Not something I would rush to listen to again, but worth the experience. I put them in same class as John Cage, whose aim was to make you re-evaluate what “music” actually meant. You didn’t have to like it, as long as you at least thought about it.
But yes, I think you did well to survive 20 minutes :D

I have little personal interest in the Brit awards, as I think they are hopelessly reactionary and out of touch with the important things happening at the grassroots and cutting edge of modern music, but here’s a story about how they are being “shaken up”:
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50300002
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To summarise: they are scrapping the “international group” award but keeping “International Male Solo Artist” and “International Female Solo Artist”, because … uh… obviously bands have inherently less musical worth and integrity than a single person doing it all alone with nothing but their own talent and the backing of a major record label. They are keeping best British group, though, as well as best British male and female solo. I’m not sure if you can be an all-male group, an all-female group, or have to be a mixed group, that’s not really very clear. Also, if a female singer, for example, has put out an album of songs written by men, I’m not sure if she qualifies as a female solo artist or not. Or if having a backing band, of any gender, disqualifies both male and female solo artists.
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But I’m glad they are separating men and women, because obviously women are mentally and biologically incapable of making the same sort of music as men and therefore its not fair to judge them together. (I am a little unclear on what they think of transgendered musicians. I think we need a statement on that.)
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They are also scrapping fan votes, using an “official voting academy, made up of experts from all areas of the music industry” instead. Because obviously fans are mindless idiots who keep picking the wrong people, and I mean why should people who actually listen to and like and pay for the music have any clue as to how good it is?

Despite the headlines it’s not really a radical change. The awards they’ve always has (gender split included) are still there but they’ve cut a couple to make the show shorter.
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Axing the public awards (I think there were two of them) is to be congratulated. I’ve said this many times but they are a load of nonsense because they are just a measure of who can campaign better or has the better fan club engagement. Either make it a panel or if you want true democracy then just awards based on sales/streams/radio play.

garjones wrote:

Axing the public awards (I think there were two of them) is to be congratulated. I’ve said this many times but they are a load of nonsense because they are just a measure of who can campaign better or has the better fan club engagement.

Well, I would agree if we were talking about something the public is truly unqualified to judge, such as, for example, general elections.
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But it’s pop music. I think people who listen to music are fully able to make decisions about what they like. And if they are not, it’s because they have been brainwashed by industry “experts”–the same experts who will be voting for these awards, as it happens, making your argument self-fulfilling. I don’t see how that can possibly give a fair or meaningful result. And that’s not even considering the bias from the music-industry-based judges’ vested interests in who wins.
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It’s kind of like when a panel of experts picks an X-Factor winner, and then nobody buys his albums. You can’t fool all of the people all of the time, no matter how expert you are.

DavidM wrote:

I think people who listen to music are fully able to make decisions about what they like.

I think they are too but this is an issue I’ve discussed a few times. Online polls become less about what the general public think and more about which group can muster up enough publicity to get people to vote.
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You must have read my work example about Linux enthusiasts voting for things they’ll never buy many times by now but Matt Garvey had a recent one where on his indie comic contest suddenly one book got thousands of votes on the last day. So as the article says what happens in practice is that even if say Adele is by far the most popular artist boy and girl bands always win as they have fan clubs and a lot of social media engagement so drum up way more votes.
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There’s an argument that fervour of opinion is also a valid measure but I think it’s a load of bullshit.
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If you want the closest thing to the real choice of the people then just use the number of times people listen to the music, not an online poll. Remember too that the final choice in the likes of the X-Factor is down to phone vote, not the judges, there has appeared to be no correlation there with who may actually buy the records.

(Can’t see my reply so re-posting. Apologies if it results in a double post.)
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I don’t disagree with you, public voting is also flawed, for the reasons you give.
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But I think a panel of experts is a worse way to judge things. As somebody famous once said, democracy isn’t perfect but it’s better than the alternatives.
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Two examples of flawed awards voting:
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1) There’s a (recently-defunct) magazine called Rock Society, which was produced by a group of gig promoters in the north of England. It was sold at gigs, and by subscription, you’d never have seen it in Smiths. Every year they ran a “best of” readers’ poll. Surprisingly it turns out the the best rock vocalists, guitarists, etc., in the world today are people who you’ve never heard of but who gigged heavily in the north of England!
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2) Every year, my friend who edits the UK Eurovision fan club magazine sends me a breakdown of all the Eurovision voting. The discrepancy between where a song would place if only the jury voted and if only the people voted is remarkable. So clearly the public are wrong about how good every single song is, and the EBA should abandon the televote.
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Though I personally hate the idea, I think fervour of opinion (aka good marketing) always has been the dominant factor in what has made successful pop music. Why not acknowledge that and award the bands who are good at it?

DavidM wrote:

Though I personally hate the idea, I think fervour of opinion (aka good marketing) always has been the dominant factor in what has made successful pop music. Why not acknowledge that and award the bands who are good at it?

then add an award for the Most popular music to give to the best promoted music or an award to the best fan group. Being able to promote well is very different to playing music well.

Rocket wrote:

Being able to promote well is very different to playing music well.

So, what you’re saying is that we give a token award to a pop musician who has successfully brainwashed the most people, and all the other awards are based purely on musical brilliance and therefore go to classical violinists and pianists?
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I could live with that.

DavidM wrote:

therefore go to classical violinists and pianists?

now you are being as elitist and biased as many of the “experts” you were disagreeing with earlier. I am not saying violinists aren’t qualified for awards but there are musicians with different skills(guitarists, vocalists, drummers, etc.) that should be considered as well. Pianists don’t have have to been classical either.

case in point:
Elton John
Billy Joel
Professor Roy Bittan

DavidM wrote:

But I think a panel of experts is a worse way to judge things.

Technically I wouldn’t disagree but the problem then for awards shows is you hit a major issue.
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If the direct vote is fatally flawed due to ‘special interests’ then the only properly representative method is sales or plays or an amalgamation of the two which are the charts. If you base an awards show on that then the entire element of surprise is gone. Adele went triple platinum so she’s winning best album.
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So it’s all really a fudge. The BRITS is an industry sales platform (as is the Oscars), initially called the BPI (British Phonographic Industry) Awards, admitting in the title it’s an industry. All they really care about is sales but basing the awards on sales doesn’t make an interesting show when they open the envelopes. They also never mind if stuff that doesn’t sell the most gets an award because they don’t really need to promote what is already top of the charts. Everything nominated in The Brits, The Oscars, The Booker go flying up sales charts the week they announce them.
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I’m not saying the judging panel is rigged, I don’t think it is, but they know they kind of win whatever they pick. They use the jury of experts because none of the other methods work as well.

the old-school idea of millions of latent followers resulting in a Top 10 hit is over. Even Katy Perry’s last single, Harleys in Hawaii, peaked at No 45 in this country and she is the second most-followed person on Twitter.

It’s amusing that having Twitter followers is now considered “old school” :D
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But it’s another piece of evidence that having good fan engagement doesn’t translate to sales. The quote is from a story about One Direction solo singles flopping:
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https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/nov/08/new-entry-at-84-why-are-one-directions-solo-careers-stalling
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Which concludes that it’s due to the fandom “fracturing”, which I think is another way of saying “Only one of you was any good anyway”?

I was curious so I YouTubed Harleys in Hawaii.

That was terrible. I will never forgive you for this, Gareth

What!? It’s that young hipster David Meadow’s fault!

I know Gareth hates broadcasting, but also Gareth is not the boss of me an I do wot wan.

I bought a record player this year and I wanted to fill up one of my little shelves with records I bought this year, each had to be from a different artist, which I’ve now done (ive sort of cheated with Jack White and Thom Yorke though).

It’s a pretty white collection with zero hip hop, but still it runs an okay gamut.

I was going to by Ege Bamyasi this weekend but I can’t find It.

Evidently this thread is a jerkface

I have bought 27 new records this year, and I’m afraid it is all white. I am not aware of a single black musician on any album (I cannot discount it; there could be session/studio musicians that I don’t know the race of).
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I don’t know why this is. I mean, I did not make a conscious decision to exclude black musicians — that would be ridiculous for so many reasons.
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What I mean is, I don’t know why black musicians do not, in general (of course there are exceptions), play the genres of music I listen to. There’s no real reason why anybody shouldn’t play anything, but they don’t. There is a definite racial divide. But it’s not one that makes sense. Music is just music. It is equally available to anyone.
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(This may be too controversial a topic for the thread, and if mods want to remove this post on those grounds I’m fine with that.)

I didn’t mean it like that – i meant its a very white collection in that its the type of collection that one would expect would be bought by a straight white male in their 30s. There’s black musicians in there – Kele Okereke from Bloc Party, TV on the Radio, but they play alternative rock which is mostly a genre white people listen to (as far as i understand it). Karen O from the Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs is Asian but again, it’s alternative rock.

This is obviously not a universal rule – simply pointing out that its proabably a fairly typical collection for someone with my background to the point of maybe being cliched.

Ah, ok, white in the sense of “vanilla”, got you.
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I’m not sure if my collection is like that. I listen to very little that would be regarded as mainstream, I think, but maybe it is typical for somebody of my background
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But my comment about mine being “white” still stands.

Unless its cover to cover Beach Boys and The Beatles, you’re good

DavidM wrote:

But it’s another piece of evidence that having good fan engagement doesn’t translate to sales.

DavidM wrote:

Even Katy Perry’s last single, Harleys in Hawaii, peaked at No 45 in this country and she is the second most-followed person on Twitter.

it is not necessarily fan engagement. it could be the way Twitter is designed. All those millions might have moved on to other things and just not bothered to unfollow. Also, Katy Perry the person might be more interesting than songs made by Katy Perry the musician.

This one’s for @garjones. Would this be a reverse Mockney accent? They’re Welsh and affecting an American accent to sound like their heroes (presumably Dashboard Confessional and Blink 182). They even have the respective lead singers of those bands featured on these two versions of the same song.
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Here’s an interview for reference of their real accents.
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Rocket wrote:

Also, Katy Perry the person might be more interesting than songs made by Katy Perry the musician.

Yes, if I were to follow Katy Perry on any “soch” it’d be to see Katy Perry rather than hear her songs (though some of her tunes are fine).

@ronniem Yeah definitely. I mean a lot of British artists affect a certain soft American ‘rock and roll’ voice. Partly by emulating what came before but also it’s known that the longer vowels in US accents suit singing better than clipped ones often found in British pronunciation.
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This one is a step much further though in copying the voice of another band that’s very distinct, putting on the full drawl.
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I’m very fond of singers that don’t affect an accent but proudly sing in their own, like Bjork, Dolores O’Riordan, Cerys Matthews, Alex Turner, Cyndi Lauper, The Proclaimers, Jarvis Cocker. It makes them stand out from the crowd and makes it more interesting to me than ‘generic rock voice’.
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It’s notable you almost never hear that same generic voice in rappers where it’s closer to spoken word, initially British rappers did try and copy the US originators but it stopped after a couple of years.
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Wham Rap! is always a funny one because they lyrics are really British (they reference the DHSS – Department of Housing and Social Services) but their only reference point is the likes of The Sugarhill Gang so it’s all done in their tempo and accent.

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That copying didn’t really outlast the 1980s.

Get these two albums and alleviate your guilt:

Every record collection needs some Jimi and Bob.

garjones wrote:

This one is a step much further though in copying the voice of another band that’s very distinct, putting on the full drawl.

I should be clear that I really like Neck Deep. They have the energy those bands used to have and aren’t afraid of the pop/skate/So Cal punk and emo genre labels. I saw a recent interview with Blink 182 where they were asked what type of music they were and they said every sub-genre of rock but (pop/skate/So Cal) punk. Then went on to site influences that were predominantly pop/skate/So Cal punk like the Descendants.

If you like the music the rest is all rather incidental. I have quite a soft spot for Wham Rap! (mainly because it’s slightly ridiculous).
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I find it more a curiosity rather than very important, just a couple of those initial crop of punk/pop guys got on my nerves a little because they attempted to sound like The Clash or whoever and ended up with this weird invention of an accent that doesn’t quite belong anywhere.
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The question actually occurred to me after posting that whether you can have country and western music without the accent. If you play the same tune with an English accent does it just become ‘folk’? A lot of stuff like Billy Bragg can be musically very close to country but would never be described as that.

garjones wrote:

I find it more a curiosity rather than very important, just a couple of those initial crop of punk/pop guys got on my nerves a little because they attempted to sound like The Clash or whoever and ended up with this weird invention of an accent that doesn’t quite belong anywhere.

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There’s a bit of a transition in there somewhere. Bands like Green Day were more influence by The Clash and have a bit more leaning in that direction. Later bands like Blink 182, MxPx and the groups that came up in the Warped Tour days were more influenced by homegrown groups like the Descendants.
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garjones wrote:

The question actually occurred to me after posting that whether you can have country and western music without the accent. If you play the same tune with an English accent does it just become ‘folk’? A lot of stuff like Billy Bragg can be musically very close to country but would never be described as that.

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I think it depends. One of the more successful country music singers in the US, Keith Urban, is actually Australian. I haven’t really listened to his music enough to tell if he affects a Southern accent. From talking to Parker, there seems to be a strong American Country Music following in Ireland with a bit of back and forth there. I think that kind of sharing would be really cool.

garjones wrote:

The question actually occurred to me after posting that whether you can have country and western music without the accent. If you play the same tune with an English accent does it just become ‘folk’? A lot of stuff like Billy Bragg can be musically very close to country but would never be described as that.

I don’t know about C&W, but in folk circles it’s frowned upon to sing in anything but your native accent. Martin Simpson sings English and American songs, but always sounds English. Alasdair Roberts sounds Scottish whether he’s singing Scottish, English or American folk. It works the other way, too: Paul Simon sounded American when he sang Scarborough Fair (compare with Martin Carthy, whose phrasing Simon copied exactly, and the vowels are all different). Billy Bragg sounds like Billy Bragg whatever he sings :D . I know it happens in pop and rock, but I can’t think of any folk singer I know that “puts on” an accent. I don’t know, maybe Laura-Beth Salter sounds American (she’s from Lincolnshire) but she sounds that way on songs she writes herself as well as traditional American, so she’s not deliberately switching.

It’s an interesting issue. There are a lot of songs that the accent is fundamental to the song. I found Johnny Cash and Joe Strummer’s cover of Redemption Song interesting for that reason. It’s a pretty straight cover except for the change in accents. Neither are afraid to make it their own and it’s amazing but quite different.
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RonnieM wrote:

Keith Urban, is actually Australian. I haven’t really listened to his music enough to tell if he affects a Southern accent.

Me neither but I just listened to 5 seconds on Youtube and boy he does affect the accent.
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It’s definitely not ‘Men at Work.
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Country is popular outside the US, not as popular but especially in more rural areas in the UK and Ireland it has a following. I think the Americana is all part of that though, they tend to put on the checked shirts and cowboy hats as part of it all.
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Which is why it occurred to me that maybe you can’t be ‘country’ without the ‘western’ part. Apart from Billy Bragg there was Billy Connolly when he started out, he was a musical act playing a banjo and really it was pretty very much country tunes but in his Glaswegian accent it was always called ‘folk’.

What do they do about the pickup truck and guns?

(Gar): Sorry Ronnie, I ballsed up trying to quote this post and edited it instead somehow and now can’t get back your original post.

DavidM wrote:

I know it happens in pop and rock, but I can’t think of any folk singer I know that “puts on” an accent.

I wonder there if it has something in common with hip-hop as the lyrics are often telling stories more than the ‘I love you’ stuff of a lot of rock and pop. So you need an extra level of authenticity to it all.
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It crossed my mind because I remember the comedian Frank Skinner in an interview saying he only listened to country music and hip-hop, which initially seems an odd combo, but he said it was because the songs had a narrative and a confessional nature.
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Apart from very early stuff British rap I mentioned (or French or other places for that matter) they don’t try and emulate the American sound. Tricky or Dizzee Rascal or Stormzy perform very much in their own voices. Similarly to the folk music Tricky did a cover of a Public Enemy song and it’s performed with very English vowels.

RonnieM wrote:

(Gar): Sorry Ronnie, I ballsed up trying to quote this post and edited it instead somehow and now can’t get back your original post.

Hahaha. No problem, brother. That’s kind of funny.

RonnieM wrote:

They’re Welsh and affecting an American accent

i saw this and immediately thought of one of my favorite new characters on TV: Dr Martin Whitley from the show “Prodigal Son”

Mr Sheen makes him such a fascinating psychopath

Ah well but acting is another thing entirely, everyone is pretending by design.
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My favourite is Matthew Rhys who finally won an Emmy for his final season in The Americans. He accepted the award in his normal Welsh accent and comments section went nuts with fans only just realising he wasn’t American, which he took as the best compliment he could have been given.

RonnieM wrote:

One of the more successful country music singers in the US, Keith Urban, is actually Australian. I haven’t really listened to his music enough to tell if he affects a Southern accent.

He does as do most Australian country artists (and there is quite a scene, including the annual Tamworth Country Music Festival, a two week event in January every year).

Most pop artists sing in quasi-American accents; most of the time when Australians don’t I don’t find it pleasant. The Waifs were notorious for the broad accent in songs, Courtney Barnett more recently.

One of the tricky things with the American accent though is that “can” and “can’t” sound quite similar in it, way more than they do in an Australian accent. How you hear that word can change the entire meaning of a chorus or refrain.

Jolene in an American accent:

Jolene in a Scottish accent:

I suggest it’s not the accent that makes it “country”.

People’s Exhibit B:
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I will Always Love You in an American Accent:
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I will Always Love You also in an American Accent:
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The first one is a country song. The second one isn’t.
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It’s not the accent.

Exhibit C.

This is what I had posted that Gar accidentally edited. There were a lot of acts in the 70’s that got branded either folk or country largely dependent on where they were from. Guys like Neil Young and Bob Dylan played with, wrote songs for and with and covered/had their songs covered by guys like Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson and Johnny Cash.

Are You Ready for the Country is a Neil Young song covered by several country artists but probably most prominently Waylon Jennings. Neil is even singing at Farm Aid with a fiddle and steal guitar in the band in the video below. I don’t know how you can argue that it wouldn’t be country except for Young’s place of origin.
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I side with you rather than David here. The guys singing in northern US or Canadian accents are being branded as ‘folk’. It’s not just an American accent as he thinks but country always has that southern twang.

Shania Twain is Canadian but employs the ‘country accent’ and gets quickly put into that bracket even if a lot of her music is more pop and rock.

To me (and bear in mind I’ve barely dipped my toe into the genre, so this is an outsider’s perspective) modern country is pretty much all pop and rock. I remember realizing this when they showed a Garth Brooks concert on TV in the 90s, and thinking, yeah, this is not a bad soft rock band. Then Shania Twain and others came along and cemented the impression. It’s just soft rock with an affected vocal style.
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The other thing that seems to separate country from “folk”, for me, is that, like pop, it’s all manufactured. Country music is actually a really new genre. You go to a folk gig and you’ll hear the singer say, “I got this next tune from old Annie McTavish who was recorded singing it in 1926 and she got it from her grandmother”. Folk songs (mostly) have “Trad.” or “Anon.” in the writing credits. Nobody owns folk songs. Country songs have a Nashville music publisher’s name in the credits.
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(Please note I’m not judging relative merits, just noting the difference.)
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There *is* American folk music. I’ve heard traditional music from the Appalacian Mountains that’s apparently been around forever (quite often originating in Europe, though). And a lot of the really old blues tunes are basically folk music, though we don’t call them that. And I’d even say we ought to include old Negro spirituals (and I apologise if that’s no longer the correct term for them). All of these examples sound completely different from one another, of course, and also different from English folk music. Because folk music isn’t a sound, it’s a description of way that music was created and preserved.
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In contrast, as far as I can see, country is all about the sound, and therefore has to be deliberately manufactured to fit that sound and meet audience expectations.

I actually think the voice/accent discussion is a big red herring. I think it tends to be the instrumental arrangements that most define a song as a Country song – you could take most Country songs and rearrange the instrumental parts around the same vocal and get a sound that’s straight pop/rock.

That’s not to say that there isn’t an accent that you associate with Country as there’s definitely a southern American twang that goes with that territory, but I don’t think it’s the defining factor.

Jason wrote:

Get these two albums and alleviate your guilt:

Every record collection needs some Jimi and Bob.

If this was directed at me then I confirm Hendrix is in there. So is James Brown.

I don’t really love Bob Marley though. I like George Clinton.

I think it tends to be the instrumental arrangements that most define a song as a Country song

That’s kind of what Ronnie’s examples countered though, songs sung with country arrangements by the likes of Young or Dylan but not considered that by the industry or media.
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I’m not saying that singing in a southern US accent makes it country alone of course. Tammy Wynette singing on that KLF song doesn’t make it country but it’s hard right now for me to think of any examples usually that would go into the ‘country’ section of the music shop that don’t contain it.
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Bearing in mind of course that defining genres or sub-genres is a completely unscientific and subjective thing so there are no real correct answers, just musings.

The Band was one of the more prominent and successful groups in the “American roots rock” genre, writing and playing songs like “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down”, “Up on Cripple Creek”, and the gospel-tinged “I Shall Be Released”. Yet the Band members consisted on four Canadians and an American drummer.

Also, they played The Band on Planet Rock radio last night so they are clearly rock not country

DavidM wrote:

To me (and bear in mind I’ve barely dipped my toe into the genre, so this is an outsider’s perspective) modern country is pretty much all pop and rock.

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There’s a debate within Country music whether a lot of “Modern Country” is even Country. I tend to call a lot of it Southern Pop. Garth Brooks is kind of the change point, the Raphaelite moment if you will. I think he was actually very good but a lot of what came after was not and could be very manufactured. It’s the point the Shooter Jennings (Waylon’s son) song below is making.
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njerry wrote:

The Band was one of the more prominent and successful groups in the “American roots rock” genre, writing and playing songs like “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down”, “Up on Cripple Creek”, and the gospel-tinged “I Shall Be Released”. Yet the Band members consisted on four Canadians and an American drummer.

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The Band is a group that I almost included in my list. They used to be Bob Dylan’s backing band so I kind of felt like they were lumped in with him. A lot of their songs have been covered pretty heavily by Country groups with little to no change. Also, Levon Helm wasn’t just a drummer but did vocals on a lot of tracks particularly the more Country tinged ones in his Southern (Arkansas) accent. So The Band largely has all the elements of a Country group except the marketing which I think is the real key. I have friends that would listen to Southern Rock and stuff that could easily be Country except for the classification but would turn their nose up at anything labeled Country music. I think it’s largely because of the negative connotations associated with the South in the US.
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Dave wrote:

you could take most Country songs and rearrange the instrumental parts around the same vocal and get a sound that’s straight pop/rock.

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I do agree with this. A lot of Willie Nelson songs work very well as Blues songs by just changing a bit of instrumentation. He’s also collaborated with some blues and jazz legends like B.B. King and Wynton Marsalis.

Had to listen to some The Band after talking about them. I’ve never seen The Last Waltz but The Weight as sang here gets really weird to me when Danko takes over vocals. The song really depends on Helm and even works when the more Blues tinged singers take over but the straight rock vocals seem bizarre.
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you should watch The Last Waltz. Its a great movie. Marty Scorsese the famous Marvel hater directed it. It includes interviews as well as performances.

With Shania (and probably others) there’s the fact that they’d often release two versions of singles and albums; one “country” and one pop. The (awesome) Shania power ballad “From this moment” was a worldwide hit in it’s pop version. The original (?) country version is a duet.

On accents and whatnot, the Beatles (particularly Ringo and George) were country fans; a number of country covers made their early albums – “Matchbox” and “Everybody’s trying to be my baby” are the first that come to my mind.

It may not surprise people to learn that this is my favourite country song:

DavidM wrote:

It may not surprise people to learn that this is my favourite country song:

Wow. That’s a bizarre attempt at a Southern accent. This must be what it’s like for people with a true Cockney accent to hear Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins.

It’s obviously a deliberate choice, because that’s not his normal singing accent. But I don’t know if he thinks it’s a good effort, or if he’s deliberately trying for a comedy accent because it’s a comedy song

DavidM wrote:

It’s obviously a deliberate choice, because that’s not his normal singing accent. But I don’t know if he thinks it’s a good effort, or if he’s deliberately trying for a comedy accent because it’s a comedy song

Was Dick Van Dyke’s a comedy accent because he had a comedy role or was he trying to do a legitimate accent?

It does matter as it’s still horrible.

RonnieM wrote:

Was Dick Van Dyke’s a comedy accent because he had a comedy role or was he trying to do a legitimate accent?

That’s actually a really interesting question. I wonder if he has ever talked about it?

DavidM wrote:

RonnieM wrote:

Was Dick Van Dyke’s a comedy accent because he had a comedy role or was he trying to do a legitimate accent?

That’s actually a really interesting question. I wonder if he has ever talked about it?

Dick Van Dyke sorry for ‘atrocious cockney accent’ in Mary Poppins

But he has previously spoken about his turn as Bert, saying he would never be allowed to forget it. “People in the UK love to rib me about my accent, I will never live it down,” he said. “They ask what part of England I was meant to be from and I say it was a little shire in the north where most of the people were from Ohio.”
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He also said he was completely unaware during the shoot that anything was wrong with his attempted cockney accent. “I was working with an entire English cast and nobody said a word, not Julie [Andrews], not anybody said I needed to work on it so I thought I was alright.”

I think the struggle is (and something that hadn’t occurred to be with the Cockney accent until recently) that if you are or seem to be mocking what is perceived as a lower class accent, there is a bit of a punching down kind of thing.

I don’t think that’s really felt with Americans trying it though. It’s only really punching down of a posh Brit did it.
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Dick Van Dyke was just mocked because it was a rubbish attempt, I don’t believe anyone was offended, it’s just funny. And as he’s said for years he thought it was really good because everyone was too polite to correct him.

British guy trying to sound Country? Let’s not forget this one:

I’m on a Dutch music 80s nostalgia trip (I didn’t find a “what are you listening to” thread)

Anonymous wrote:

(I didn’t find a “what are you listening to” thread)

There was one, but it was merged with this thread.

Yup they are merged so we can have a bit more discussion around it rather than 20 Youtube clips in a row.

I may have posted this before, but talking about Dutch music reminded me to watch it again.
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What I love about this is that I’m pretty sure the expression on this woman’s face is my exact expression every single time I see this band:
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It looks like I didn’t post this here when it appeared on social media?
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I would have loved to see this.
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As a film fan this really belong to ‘The Hunger’, for me, but it’s a damn cool song to start with.