Mind Expanding Things that Aren't Science

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#5468

We seem to have lost the old Thought Provoking (TM) mind expansion thread, so here’s a replacement.
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Astrology:
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https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/06/i-was-an-astrologer-how-it-works-psychics
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Before you scoff, there are some interesting insights in the article that you don’t have to be a believer to appreciate. Here’s a couple of extracts that made me wonder:
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I’d understood organised religion to be something between an embarrassment and an evil. Yet as Aids did its dreadful work – this was the 1990s – I watched nuns offer compassionate care to the dying. Christian volunteers checked on derelict men with vomit down their clothes. I became uncomfortably aware that New Agers do not build hospitals or feed alcoholics – they buy self-actualisation at the cash register.

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I also learned that intelligence and education do not protect against superstition. Many customers were stockbrokers, advertising executives or politicians, dealing with issues whose outcomes couldn’t be controlled. It’s uncertainty that drives people into woo, not stupidity, so I’m not surprised millennials are into astrology. They grew up with Harry Potter and graduated into a precarious economy, making them the ideal customers.

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Some repeat customers claimed I’d made very specific predictions, of a kind I never made. It dawned on me that my readings were a co-creation – I would weave a story and, later, the customer’s memory would add new elements. I got to test this theory after a friend raved about a reading she’d had, full of astonishingly accurate predictions. She had a tape of the session, so I asked her to play it.

The clairvoyant had said none of the things my friend claimed. Not a single one. My friend’s imagination had done all the work.

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And my favourite:
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I can still make the odd forecast, though. Here’s one: the venture capital pouring into astrology apps will create a fortune telling system that works, because humans are predictable. As people follow the advice, the apps’ predictive powers will increase, creating an ever-tighter electronic leash. But they’ll be hugely popular – because if you sprinkle magic on top, you can sell people anything.

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  • #75939

    I honestly see religion as part of the problem.

    I look at the abortion rights fight here in the US. It’s the fundamentalists that are using “God” as a reason to undermine women’s rights. “Christians” here will try to use religion as a club to deny various groups their rights while at the same time claim they are “persecuted” and they are “endangered”. It’s all bullshit and really all about control.

    I think we as a species need to evolve beyond religion. It’s one thing when you’re a peasant centuries and millennia ago and had no understanding of the workings of the world and the universe, but we know so much more than we ever have. We are constantly learning new things. “Because God said so” is not a valid reason or explanation.

    And you don’t need religion to be a moral and ethical person.

    I kinda see lack of religion as part of the problem.

  • #75946

    When it comes to morality, it seems like people are either naturally inclined to be human or they aren’t. As far as most moral questions, “because God says so” turns out to be as good as any rational reason. No creed or philosophy provides any perfect guide for human choices and often lead to mass inhumanity whether entirely religious or secular. If people opposing abortion for legal reasons would also apply their religious values to the care of people, abortions would not need to be illegalized as the support system for mothers and children would be there as a viable alternative. I mean it is not like anyone was going along completely fine with gay marriage and abortion rights and then changed their minds as soon as they went to church. They were already against it and just cherry picked the religious tenets they wanted to justify the previously held belief.

    Same for things like dekulakization under Stalin or the Cultural Revolution under Mao or eugenics and anti-Semitism both religious and secular – it wasn’t that people were swayed by the rationale behind the ideas, but that there were already plenty of people feeling that way and this just gave them the justification to act.

    You can make reasonable arguments entirely from a non-religious viewpoint for why people should behave humanely toward each other, but there will still be many cases where the rationale doesn’t match the real outcomes for people that behave humanely.

    It this regard, it is just as reasonable to rely on Aquinas or Evagrius or the Triptaka or the Tao Te Ching as it is to look to Schopenhauer or Lenin or Mao for moral guidance. Or, more to the point, it’s a good idea to be skeptical of any texts sacred or profane that claim to provide a universal moral or philosophical guidance.

     

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  • #75948

    When it comes to morality, it seems like people are either naturally inclined to be human or they aren’t. As far as most moral questions, “because God says so” turns out to be as good as any rational reason. No creed or philosophy provides any perfect guide for human choices and often lead to mass inhumanity whether entirely religious or secular. If people opposing abortion for legal reasons would also apply their religious values to the care of people, abortions would not need to be illegalized as the support system for mothers and children would be there as a viable alternative. I mean it is not like anyone was going along completely fine with gay marriage and abortion rights and then changed their minds as soon as they went to church. They were already against it and just cherry picked the religious tenets they wanted to justify the previously held belief.

    Same for things like dekulakization under Stalin or the Cultural Revolution under Mao or eugenics and anti-Semitism both religious and secular – it wasn’t that people were swayed by the rationale behind the ideas, but that there were already plenty of people feeling that way and this just gave them the justification to act.

    You can make reasonable arguments entirely from a non-religious viewpoint for why people should behave humanely toward each other, but there will still be many cases where the rationale doesn’t match the real outcomes for people that behave humanely.

    It this regard, it is just as reasonable to rely on Aquinas or Evagrius or the Triptaka or the Tao Te Ching as it is to look to Schopenhauer or Lenin or Mao for moral guidance. Or, more to the point, it’s a good idea to be skeptical of any texts sacred or profane that claim to provide a universal moral or philosophical guidance.

     

    Honestly I think peopole already know what is right and what isn’t in their heart, but some religious texts – or something like Confucius’s analects, or Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations, wether one would call that religion or philosophy – can help them discover it in themselves. A poem by Rumi for instance can give you an insight about the dignity and worth of human life, but does that mean that that idea is transported from the text into your head, or was it already dormant inside you waiting to be discovered? I don’t think honest seekers just read a religiuous text and do whatever is in it, or just follow what the priest says without further reflection. That’s a false stereotype, although social pressures to conform in religious communities can compel you to fall in line. Instead you have to reconcile these idea with your own being. You think about it. The ideas can grow inside you. You can wrestle with the ideas. Like the story of the adulteress in the gospel. Or the hidden treasure hadith.

     

    Of course I am not saying you need to follow some religion to be a good person, but it can be beneficial for some people I think to have it in their life.

  • #75975

    just follow what the priest says without further reflection

    This is what I see when you mention Religion.

    When you talk about Religion, I believe it to be more philosophy or spirituality. You are learning on your own and attempting to make up your own mind.

    Religion, to me, is going to church, believing that God’s word(as interpreted by a religious institution) is law, and do what a priest tells you what to do. Many local priests are members of the local elite. Their friends and associates are pillars of the community( the rich and powerful). Which Russian said “Religion is the opiate of the masses”? I agree with Todd but I believe the main crux of your disagreement is different interpretations of the word religion.

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  • #75983

    just follow what the priest says without further reflection

    This is what I see when you mention Religion.

    When you talk about Religion, I believe it to be more philosophy or spirituality. You are learning on your own and attempting to make up your own mind.

    Religion, to me, is going to church, believing that God’s word(as interpreted by a religious institution) is law, and do what a priest tells you what to do. Many local priests are members of the local elite. Their friends and associates are pillars of the community( the rich and powerful). Which Russian said “Religion is the opiate of the masses”? I agree with Todd but I believe the main crux of your disagreement is different interpretations of the word religion.

    Well I understand there are many ways religion can be a bad thing. I am just saying in certain cases it can be a positive thing. But if you want to use the word spirituality for that that is fine too.

     

    I agree organized religion has many problems, I am not disagreeing with that at all.

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  • #76017

    There is a rational argument why a person should be religious. However it only applies to religious communities. Essentially change the perspective and ask why do you choose to speak English? Or Spanish if you were born in Mexico or Chinese if you were born in China? You were brought up in a culture that spoke it, but you are a reasonable adult now. Why be bound by the language you were born with rather than come up with your own much more rational language? After all, English has no real design. It was haphazardly assembled and really for a culture of people already generations dead and it just keeps on growing and changing with no rational plan

    Obviously, we speak and write it because that’s how people communicate. Trying to eliminate religion is similar to trying to convince people to speak your new, improved language. It didn’t work for Esperanto but people are still trying.

    Instead, if a person was rational and humanist, then in a religious community, the rational choice would be to become a devout member of that community as peaceful and harmonious existence would be the goal. Not in the sense of being a secret atheist agent in the camp of an enemy, but an actual member sharing the same perspective of that community. Then one can also influence the moral choices of the community as well especially if one’s devotion cannot be questioned.

    This is actually somewhat the basic thrust of the story of Jesus in the Gospels. Almost all of his Acts concern defying the many laws of Judaism to be a good person. He is constantly questioned by supposedly devout people for breaking the sabbath or not washing his hands before a meal or preaching to unbelievers and his answer is usually because doing good is more Holy than obeying the laws and letting God’s children suffer. He could only get away with it because he was obviously a holy man.

    Naturally, in Latin America, it’s a lot of priests and nuns suffering on behalf of the poor and oppressed, and a lot of devout Catholics in general. It would be difficult for someone outside the Church to take the same stand and achieve the same effect.

     

     

  • #76022

  • #76029

    Wait a sec, I thought I posted that in the image thread…:D

    Ah never mind, I guess it’s OK here too.

  • #76034

    Obviously, we speak and write it because that’s how people communicate. Trying to eliminate religion is similar to trying to convince people to speak your new, improved language. It didn’t work for Esperanto but people are still trying.

     

    I agree, simply because of being born in the Netherlands I think I am at least in part a cultural Christian. These attitudes are fed to us like mother’s milk.

     

    I don’t like the “turn the other cheek” thing in Christianity, but Contrapoints in one of her videos thought it was sarcastic…”You hit me? Oh I guess I am going to turn the other cheek for you then because I’m so peaceful”…which I thought was a funny and original interpretation.

  • #76107

    Trying to eliminate religion is similar to trying to convince people to speak your new, improved language.

    I never said I wanted to eliminate religion. Christianity, for instance, is a very admirable concept but the institutions that sprung out of it could use some work.
    I’ve met some fascinating priests but even they had issues with the religious hierarchy. I studied Medieval European history for a time and saw so many cases of the Catholic church trying to usurp political power.
    Remember Caddyshack? I know it is a fictional comedy but did anyone question that the Club authority figures were a doctor, a judge, and a bishop?
    American Christianity, to narrow the focus and stay with what I know, has so many problems.
    When I was a child I went to a church with my family that was so hypocritical it was a joke. It had such a small parking lot that, minutes after spending approx a hour talking about love your neighbor and spreading peace, people were screaming and cursing each other out as they attempted to beat each other to the single exit.

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  • #76153

    Still, in the Medieval era, often the church was better for the masses than the kings and nobles were. Certainly, the church was no more corrupt and often had more legitimacy than the political powers. Even when anti-Christian regimes came to power in the enlightenment, they ended up far worse than their predecessors such as France or Russia after their revolutions.

    My point more is that we atheists or non-religious individuals look at religion from an individual perspective as if it is only or primarily a belief “system” when really a religion is comprised of the people and communities that make it up rather than the relationship a single person has with the religion. The selfless or anti-self elements of most religions are a basic barrier to entry for rational individuals or individualists.

    However, when a religion is a very dominant element in a culture then anyone who would want to do good for their community would have to consider joining in. Almost every religion has naturally humane and humanistic moral codes at their heart, so the most effective way to promote humane tendencies in a community would be from inside that religion.

    Just as it might be more effective to explain the ideas and novels of Tolstoy or Dostoevsky in the original Russian, but would be useless if the people you’re speaking to don’t understand Russian. If American Christianity is too narrow minded, that may not be an innate feature of the religion but a result of the fact people of broader minds that should be Christians aren’t.

  • #76160

    Dogen said “when you become enlightened, the Earth grows six feet taller” (I’m paraphrasing). Meaning the distinction between you and the rest of the universe disappears. Buddhism I think has a big problem with Western misunderstanding, which goes back to the protestant lens through which it was first seen in Europe. First of all, I think it is important to realize Buddhism is not one thing, it consists of many very different traditions, so different they might as well be completely different religions. Anatta or non-self is an important concept in Buddhism, but I don’t think it means what some Western interpretations think it means.

     

    If anything, Theravada and some Tibetan and Zen teachings are radically selfish. In Tibetan tantra, you’re taught to recognize your inner divinity and use that to reach enlightenment. I don’t think that is very different from the idea in christianity that we’re created in God’s image, or that the Kingdom of Heaven is within ourselves. I think often the self hate we carry within us, the idea that we’re miserable creatures not worth saving, not worth loving is what is causing problems.

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  • #76200

    It is the natural development of religions to devolve into basically a sales pitch. The early Christians didn’t think that they had to die or wait until the end of time for the kingdom of God, but that it was here on Earth right now (or back then for them). Once some time passed, it stopped being about right now and turned into “where are you going when you die?” which honestly wasn’t much of a concern for people in ancient times, it seemed if you look at their afterlives. Mostly, being dead was dreary and unremarkable or they didn’t have an afterlife.

    So there is all this weird theology that you die, spend some time in heaven with God, Jesus and the Angels and then Jesus destroys the world with a burning sword, throws all the unbelievers in a lake of fire while you’re reincarnated into a new immortal body on a new Earth – – and all sorts of stuff that is not only obvious nonsense but incredibly detailed even though there is literally no proof or even any actual evidence of it in any of the texts.

    When, ironically, the whole point of the story is that if a person really embodies the example of the Christ, then Heaven is wherever they are right now. So, even if a Christian went to hell, it would still be Heaven because “the kingdom of God is within.” Which sounds like the premise to some unwritten Warren Ellis or Garth Ennis comic.

     

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  • #76211

    all sorts of stuff that is not only obvious nonsense but incredibly detailed even though there is literally no proof or even any actual evidence of it in any of the texts.

    But God, Jesus, and angels tell religious leaders and televangelists all the time what Heaven and Hell are like!

    Are you saying that “gasp” they may not be telling the truth?!?!

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  • #76212

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  • #76213

    Cracked VS: Modern Angels vs. Biblical Angels

  • #76216

    It does lead to some hilarious feuds between preachers with them essentially saying “God told me this!” and another saying “No! God told me that!”

    I believe all of them, though. God’s just screwing with them.

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  • #76220

    God’s just screwing with them.

    we atheists or non-religious individuals

    which is it?

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  • #76232

    Both! Or all three?

    …what’s the question again? 42 is my answer.

    seriously, if there is a supreme being, she is definitely screwing with us!

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  • #76401

    seriously, if there is a supreme being, she is definitely screwing with us!

    The question of what a supreme being entails is interesting. On one side you have pantheistic, non-personal deities, on the other you have the gods like Krishna or Hanuman or Venus or Quetzlcoatl. I think if you’d ask believers if they believe in an all-knowing, all-determining god who has to be worshipped and obeyed and who is exactly as described in the holy books, the answer would be no for most of them.

     

    I think the “appeal to authority” is useless here. It’s medieval. These days free people can believe what they want about the Higher Realms.

  • #76515

    These days free people can believe what they want about the Higher Realms.

    reference for Higher realms.

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  • #76611

    The most useless supplement ever produced for AD&D. It gives you combat stats for gods. No GM in his right mind is going to allow the party to ever become powerful enough to fight gods.

    Disclaimer: *has run several campaigns where the party ended up fighting gods*

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  • #77257

    THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH IS BREAKING APART

    The election of the elders of an evangelical church is usually an uncontroversial, even unifying event. But this summer, at an influential megachurch in Northern Virginia, something went badly wrong. A trio of elders didn’t receive 75 percent of the vote, the threshold necessary to be installed.

    “A small group of people, inside and outside this church, coordinated a divisive effort to use disinformation in order to persuade others to vote these men down as part of a broader effort to take control of this church,” David Platt, a 43-year-old minister at McLean Bible Church and a best-selling author, charged in a July 4 sermon.

    Platt said church members had been misled, having been told, among other things, that the three individuals nominated to be elders would advocate selling the church building to Muslims, who would convert it into a mosque. In a second vote on July 18, all three nominees cleared the threshold. But that hardly resolved the conflict. Members of the church filed a lawsuit, claiming that the conduct of the election violated the church’s constitution.

    Platt, who is theologically conservative, had been accused in the months before the vote by a small but zealous group within his church of “wokeness” and being “left of center,” of pushing a “social justice” agenda and promoting critical race theory, and of attempting to “purge conservative members.” A Facebook page and a right-wing website have targeted Platt and his leadership. For his part, Platt, speaking to his congregation, described an email that was circulated claiming, “MBC is no longer McLean Bible Church, that it’s now Melanin Bible Church.”

    What happened at McLean Bible Church is happening all over the evangelical world. Influential figures such as the theologian Russell Moore and the Bible teacher Beth Moore felt compelled to leave the Southern Baptist Convention; both were targeted by right-wing elements within the SBC. The Christian Post, an online evangelical newspaper, published an op-ed by one of its contributors criticizing religious conservatives like Platt, Russell Moore, Beth Moore, and Ed Stetzer, the executive director of the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center, as “progressive Christian figures” who “commonly champion leftist ideology.” In a matter of months, four pastors resigned from Bethlehem Baptist Church, a flagship church in Minneapolis. One of those pastors, Bryan Pickering, cited mistreatment by elders, domineering leadership, bullying, and “spiritual abuse and a toxic culture.” Political conflicts are hardly the whole reason for the turmoil, but according to news accounts, they played a significant role, particularly on matters having to do with race.

    “Nearly everyone tells me there is at the very least a small group in nearly every evangelical church complaining and agitating against teaching or policies that aren’t sufficiently conservative or anti-woke,” a pastor and prominent figure within the evangelical world told me. (Like others with whom I spoke about this topic, he requested anonymity in order to speak candidly.) “It’s everywhere.”

    Michael O. Emerson, a sociology professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, told me that he and his research team have spent the past three years studying race and Christianity. “The divisions and conflicts we found are intense, easily more intense than I have seen in my 25 years of studying the topic,” he told me. What this adds up to, he said, is “an emerging day of reckoning within churches.”

    The aggressive, disruptive, and unforgiving mindset that characterizes so much of our politics has found a home in many American churches. As a person of the Christian faith who has spent most of my adult life attending evangelical churches, I wanted to understand the splintering of churches, communities, and relationships. I reached out to dozens of pastors, theologians, academics, and historians, as well as a seminary president and people involved in campus ministry. All voiced concern.

    The coronavirus pandemic, of course, has placed religious communities under extraordinary strain. Everyone in America has felt its effects; for many Christians, it’s been a bar to gathering and worshipping together, sharing Communion and performing baptisms, and saying common prayers and participating in rituals and liturgy. Not being in community destabilized what has long been a core sense of Christian identity.

    But there’s more to the fractures than just COVID-19. After all, many of the forces that are splitting churches were in motion well before the pandemic hit. The pandemic exposed and exacerbated weaknesses and vulnerabilities, habits of mind and heart, that already existed.

    The root of the discord lies in the fact that many Christians have embraced the worst aspects of our culture and our politics. When the Christian faith is politicized, churches become repositories not of grace but of grievances, places where tribal identities are reinforced, where fears are nurtured, and where aggression and nastiness are sacralized. The result is not only wounding the nation; it’s having a devastating impact on the Christian faith.

    How is it that evangelical Christianity has become, for too many of its adherents, a political religion? The historian George Marsden told me that political loyalties can sometimes be so strong that they create a religiouslike faith that overrides or even transforms a more traditional religious faith. The United States has largely avoided the most virulent expressions of such political religions. None has succeeded for very long—at least, until now.

    The first step was the cultivation of the idea within the religious right that certain political positions were deeply Christian, according to Marsden. Still, such claims were not at all unprecedented in American history. Through the 2000s, even though the religious right drew its energy from the culture wars—as it had for decades—it abided by some civil restraints. Then came Donald Trump.

    “When Trump was able to add open hatred and resentments to the political-religious stance of ‘true believers,’ it crossed a line,” Marsden said. “Tribal instincts seem to have become overwhelming.” The dominance of political religion over professed religion is seen in how, for many, the loyalty to Trump became a blind allegiance. The result is that many Christian followers of Trump “have come to see a gospel of hatreds, resentments, vilifications, put-downs, and insults as expressions of their Christianity, for which they too should be willing to fight.”

    Tim Schultz, the president of the 1st Amendment Partnership and an advocate for religious freedom, told me that evangelicalism was due a reckoning. “It has been held together by political orientation and sociology more than by common theology,” he said. The twin crises of the summer of 2020—COVID and a heightened awareness of enduring racial injustices—exposed this long-unnoticed truth.

    Some of the most distinctive features of the evangelical movement may have left it particularly vulnerable to this form of politicization. Among religious believers, evangelicals are some of the most anti-institutional, Timothy J. Keller, the founding pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church, in Manhattan, told me. The evangelical movement flourished in this relatively anti-institutional country at a particularly anti-institutional time. Evangelical ministries and churches fit the “spirit of the age,” growing rapidly in the 1970s, and retaining more of their members even as many mainline denominations declined.

    At the same time, Keller argues, that anti-institutional tendency makes evangelical communities more prone than others to “insider abuse”—corruption committed by leaders who have almost no guardrails—and “outsider-ism,” in which evangelicals simply refuse to let their church form them or their beliefs. As a result, they are unrooted—and therefore susceptible to political idolization, fanatical ideas, and conspiracy theories.

    “What we’re seeing is massive discipleship failure caused by massive catechesis failure,” James Ernest, the vice president and editor in chief at Eerdmans, a publisher of religious books, told me. Ernest was one of several figures I spoke with who pointed to catechism, the process of instructing and informing people through teaching, as the source of the problem. “The evangelical Church in the U.S. over the last five decades has failed to form its adherents into disciples. So there is a great hollowness. All that was needed to cause the implosion that we have seen was a sufficiently provocative stimulus. And that stimulus came.”

    “Culture catechizes,” Alan Jacobs, a distinguished professor of humanities in the honors program at Baylor University, told me. Culture teaches us what matters and what views we should take about what matters. Our current political culture, Jacobs argued, has multiple technologies and platforms for catechizing—television, radio, Facebook, Twitter, and podcasts among them. People who want to be connected to their political tribe—the people they think are like them, the people they think are on their side—subject themselves to its catechesis all day long, every single day, hour after hour after hour.

    On the flip side, many churches aren’t interested in catechesis at all. They focus instead on entertainment, because entertainment is what keeps people in their seats and coins in the offering plate. But as Jacobs points out, even those pastors who really are committed to catechesis get to spend, on average, less than an hour a week teaching their people. Sermons are short. Only some churchgoers attend adult-education classes, and even fewer attend Bible study and small groups. Cable news, however, is always on. “So if people are getting one kind of catechesis for half an hour per week,” Jacobs asked, “and another for dozens of hours per week, which one do you think will win out?”

    That’s not a problem limited to the faithful on one side of the aisle. “This is true of both the Christian left and the Christian right,” Jacobs said. “People come to believe what they are most thoroughly and intensively catechized to believe, and that catechesis comes not from the churches but from the media they consume, or rather the media that consume them. The churches have barely better than a snowball’s chance in hell of shaping most people’s lives.”

    But when people’s values are shaped by the media they consume, rather than by their religious leaders and communities, that has consequences. “What all those media want is engagement, and engagement is most reliably driven by anger and hatred,” Jacobs argued. “They make bank when we hate each other. And so that hatred migrates into the Church, which doesn’t have the resources to resist it. The real miracle here is that even so, in the mercy of God, many people do find their way to places of real love of God and neighbor.”

    The way our sensibilities are shaped determines who we are, including the order of our loves. For many Christians, their politics has become more of an identity marker than their faith. They might insist that they are interpreting their politics through the prism of scripture, with the former subordinate to the latter, but in fact scripture and biblical ethics are often distorted to fit their politics.

    Scott Dudley, the senior pastor at Bellevue Presbyterian Church in Bellevue, Washington, refers to this as “our idolatry of politics.” He’s heard of many congregants leaving their church because it didn’t match their politics, he told me, but has never once heard of someone changing their politics because it didn’t match their church’s teaching. He often tells his congregation that if the Bible doesn’t challenge your politics at least occasionally, you’re not really paying attention to the Hebrew scriptures or the New Testament. The reality, however, is that a lot of people, especially in this era, will leave a church if their political views are ever challenged, even around the edges.

    “Many people are much more committed to their politics than to what the Bible actually says,” Dudley said. “We have failed not only to teach people the whole of scripture, but we have also failed to help them think biblically. We have failed to teach them that sometimes scripture is most useful when it doesn’t say what we want it to say, because then it is correcting us.”

    Teaching people how to think biblically would help, Dudley added, as well as teaching people how to disagree with one another biblically. “There is a lot of disagreement in the New Testament, and it gives us a template for how to listen to each other to understand rather than to argue,” he said.

    Many Christians, though, are disinclined to heed calls for civility. They feel that everything they value is under assault, and that they need to fight to protect it. “I understand that,” Dudley said. “I feel under assault sometimes too. However, I also know that the early Christians transformed the Roman empire not by demanding but by loving, not by angrily shouting about their rights in the public square but by serving even the people who persecuted them, which is why Christianity grew so quickly and took over the empire. I also know that once Christians gained political power under Constantine, that beautiful loving, sacrificing, giving, transforming Church became the angry, persecuting, killing Church. We have forgotten the cross.”

    Dudley, my high-school and college classmate, left me with this haunting question: How many people look at churches in America these days and see the face of Jesus?

    Too often, I fear, when Americans look at the Church, they see not the face of Jesus, but the style of Donald Trump.

    The former president normalized a form of discourse that made the once-shocking seem routine. Russell Moore laments the “pugilism of the Trump era, in which anything short of cruelty is seen as weakness.” The problem facing the evangelical church, then, is not just that it has failed to inculcate adherents with its values—it’s that when it has succeeded in doing so, those values have not always been biblical.

    But of course Trump did not appear ex nihilo. Kristin Kobes Du Mez, a history professor at Calvin University and the author of Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation, argues that Trump represents the fulfillment, rather than the betrayal, of many of white evangelicals’ most deeply held values. Her thesis is that American evangelicals have worked for decades to replace the Jesus of the Gospels with an idol of rugged masculinity and Christian nationalism. (She defines Christian nationalism as “the belief that America is God’s chosen nation and must be defended as such,” which she says is a powerful predictor of attitudes toward non-Christians and on issues such as immigration, race, and guns.

    Du Mez told me it’s important to recognize that this “rugged warrior Jesus” is not the only Jesus many evangelicals encounter in their faith community. There is also the “Jesus is my friend” popular in many devotionals, for example. These representations might appear to be contradictory, she told me, but in practice they can be mutually reinforcing. Jesus is a friend, protector, savior—but according to one’s own understanding of what needs to be protected and saved, and not necessarily according to core biblical teachings.

    “Evangelicals are quick to label their values ‘biblical,’” Du Mez told me. “But how they interpret the scriptures, which parts they decide to emphasize and which parts they decide to ignore, all this is informed by their historical and cultural circumstances.” That’s not simply true of this one community, she added, but of all people of faith. “More than most other Christians, however, conservative evangelicals insist that they are rejecting cultural influences,” she said, “when in fact their faith is profoundly shaped by cultural and political values, by their racial identity and their Christian nationalism.”

    Gender plays a role here as well, according to Du Mez. Over the past half century, evangelicals have tended to depict men and women as opposites. “They believe God ordained men to be protectors and filled them with testosterone for this purpose,” she said. Women, on the other hand, are seen as nurturers. The fruits of the spirit—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control—are deemed appropriate feminine virtues. “Men, however, are to exhibit boldness, courage, even ruthlessness in order to fulfill their God-appointed role,” Du Mez explained. “In this way, the warrior spirit and a kinder, gentler Christianity go hand in hand.”

    Du Mez pointed out that even men who embrace a kinder, gentler version of masculinity— servant leadership, for example—may tip into a more rugged, ruthless version when they deem the situation sufficiently dire. And for more than half a century, she said, evangelical leaders have found reason to deem the situation sufficiently dire. They rallied their congregations against the threats of communism, secular humanism, feminism, gay rights, radical Islam, Democrats in the White House, demographic decline, and critical race theory, and in defense of religious liberty.

    “Evangelical militancy is often depicted as a response to fear,” she told me. “But it’s important to recognize that in many cases evangelical leaders actively stoked fear in the hearts of their followers in order to consolidate their own power and advance their own interests.”

    Du Mez is somewhat more sympathetic toward ordinary evangelicals than she is toward powerful evangelical leaders. She acknowledges that many evangelicals have genuinely sought to follow God’s will; they were directed to believe what they do by pastors, Bible-study leaders, Christian publishers, and Christian radio and television programming. “Many have sought certainty in turbulent times,” she said, and they know that challenging these narratives may well involve the loss of meaningful communities.

    Fear has played a central role in the explosion of conflict within American evangelical churches. “Dwelling on fear and outrage is spiritually deforming,” Cherie Harder, president of the Trinity Forum, told me. “Both biblical wisdom and a large body of research holds that fear and grace, or fear and gratitude, are incompatible.” She quoted from one of the New Testament epistles: “Perfect love drives out fear.”

    There are moments, of course, when fear is an appropriate and necessary response, but there are risks when it becomes a constant presence. “Fear and anger should presumably function as alarm systems—and an alarm is not supposed to stay perpetually on,” Harder said. It is not the onset of fear or anger that is most dangerous, she said, “but stoking it, cultivating it, and dwelling within it that distorts and deforms.”

    And then there is a regional component to the crisis of evangelical Christianity. Claude Alexander, the senior pastor of the Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, told me we must come to terms with the “southernization of the Church.” Some of the distinctive cultural forms present in the American South—masculinity and male dominance, tribal loyalties, obedience and intolerance, and even the ideology of white supremacism—have spread to other parts of the country, he said. These cultural attitudes are hardly shared by every southerner or dominant throughout the South, but they do exist and they need to be named. “Southern culture has had a profound impact upon religion,” Alexander told me, “particularly evangelical religion.”

    The conservative writer David French, who lives in Tennessee, has written about the South’s shame/honor culture and its focus on group reputation and identity. “What we’re watching right now in much of our nation’s Christian politics,” he wrote, “is an explosion not of godly Christian passion, but rather of ancient southern shame/honor rage.”

    Pastors now find themselves on the front lines of this conflict, their congregations splitting into warring camps. I spoke with 15 of them, and what I heard was jarring. They told me that nothing else they’ve faced approaches what they’ve experienced in recent years, and that nothing had prepared them for it.

    Scott Dudley of Bellevue Presbyterian Church said he knows of several pastors who have not just quit their churches but resigned from ministry, and that many others are actively seeking to switch careers. “They have concluded that their church has become a hostile work environment where at any moment they may be blasted, slandered, and demeaned in disrespectful and angry ways,” he said, “or have organized groups of people within the church demand that they be fired.”

    Several months ago, I spoke with one such pastor, who had not only resigned from his church, a congregation of the Presbyterian Church in America, but had also decided, at least for now, to leave the ministry altogether. He told me that he felt undermined by people in his congregation, including by some whom he had trusted but who, it turned out, were less animated by spiritual matters than by political agendas. This former pastor used the word betrayal in our conversation; he talked about the pain this episode has caused him and his wife. In his words, “The gentleness of Jesus was utterly discarded” by those who felt he wasn’t championing their cultural and political agendas aggressively enough.

    “They don’t care about the relational collateral damage,” he said.

    In a similar vein, I recently had a conversation with a senior pastor who is planning to leave his position soon; he’s not yet sure where he’ll land, or even whether he’ll stay in the ministry. He has simply been worn down by the divisions within his church. He has not been the target of outward hostility, but he can feel the ground shifting beneath his feet. He feels that he is growing apart from people in the congregation; there’s no longer the same sense of common purpose. He is watching the collapse of an evangelical movement to which he has devoted much of his life. At one point, as we talked about what is unfolding within American Christianity, his eyes welled with tears.

    Bob Fryling, a former publisher of InterVarsity Press and the vice president of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, an evangelical campus ministry, has been part of a weekly gathering of more than 150 individuals representing about 40 churches. He’s heard of conflicts “in almost every church” and reports that pastors are exhausted. Earlier this year, the Christian polling firm Barna Group found that 29 percent of pastors said they had given “real, serious consideration to quitting being in full-time ministry within the last year.” David Kinnaman, president of Barna, described the past year as a “crucible” for pastors as churches fragmented.

    The key issues in these conflicts are not doctrinal, Fryling told me, but political. They include the passions stirred up by the Trump presidency, the legitimacy of the 2020 election, and the January 6 insurrection; the murder of George Floyd, the Black Lives Matter movement, and critical race theory; and matters related to the pandemic, such as masking, vaccinations, and restrictions on in-person worship. I know of at least one large church in eastern Washington State, where I grew up, that has split over the refusal of some of its members to wear masks.

    “There have always been mean people who cloak their unkindness in religious devotion,” one minister in a conservative denomination told me. “The New Testament itself is pretty clear about that.” But, he added, the conflicts have grown more widespread and more intense. “Without doubt you’ll see—you already are—a ton of pastors quitting,” he said. ”Most pastors actually hate conflict. So if you’re going to pay me one-quarter of what I could make on the market, why put up with this?”

    In his own church, some of the elders are devoted to culture-war politics. “These guys can be a special kind of relentless, and I don’t think I’ve had it as bad as many,” he said. “But when we’re stressed out, trying to be public-health experts without the training to do that, trying to keep our own families from blowing up with COVID stress, getting criticized from both sides at once, and then having folks doing whatever they can to ruin us and get us run out of town— we’d love to just be trusted as friends and shepherds. I understand why many folks have just said, ‘I’m done.’ I’m not there yet, but I hardly think I’m above it or guaranteed not to. I just pray to Jesus to not let me throw in the towel.”

    The historian Mark Noll’s 1994 book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, will be rereleased next year. In the forthcoming preface, which Noll, himself an evangelical, shared with me, he argues that in various spheres—vaccinations, evolutionary science, anthropogenic global warming, and the 2020 elections, to name just a few—“white evangelicals appear as the group most easily captive to conspiratorial nonsense, in greater panic about their political opponents, or as most aggressively anti-intellectual.” He goes on to warn that “the broader evangelical population has increasingly heeded populist leaders who dismiss the results of modern learning from whatever source.” And he laments the “intellectual self-immolation of recent evangelical history.”

    “Much of what is distinctive about American evangelicalism is not essential to Christianity,” Noll has written. And he is surely correct. I would add only that it isn’t simply the case that much of what is distinctive about American evangelicalism is not essential to Christianity; it is that now, in important respects, much of what is distinctive about American evangelicalism has become antithetical to authentic Christianity. What we’re dealing with—not in all cases, of course, but in far too many— is political identity and cultural anxieties, anti-intellectualism and ethnic nationalism, resentments and grievances, all dressed up as Christianity.

    Jesus now has to be reclaimed from his Church, from those who pretend to speak most authoritatively in his name.

    Too many Christians have “domesticated” Jesus by their resistance to his call to radically rethink our attitude toward power, ourselves, and others, Mark Labberton, the president of Fuller Theological Seminary, told me. We live in “an era of acute anxiety and great fear,” he said. As a result, too often Christians end up wrapping Jesus into our angry and fearful distortions. We want Jesus to validate everything we believe, often as if he never walked the face of this Earth. What we’re witnessing can be explained “more by sociology than Christology,” he said.

    Unlike in the Sermon on the Mount and the parable of the Good Samaritan—unlike Jesus’s barrier-breaking encounters with prostitutes and Roman collaborators, with the lowly and despised, with the unclean and those on the wrong side of the “holiness code,” with the wounded souls whom he healed on the Sabbath—many Christians today see the world divided between us and them, the children of light and the children of darkness. Blessed are the politically powerful, for theirs is the kingdom of God. Blessed are the culture warriors, for they will be called children of God.

    For many of us who have made Christianity central to our lives, the pain of this moment is watching those who claim to follow Jesus do so much to distort who he really was. Those who deform his image may be doing so unwittingly—this isn’t an intentionally malicious enterprise they’re engaging in; they believe they’re being faithful—but it is nonetheless destructive and unsettling.

    I believe the portrait I’ve painted in this essay is accurate, but it is also, and necessarily, incomplete. Countless acts of kindness, generosity, and self-giving love are performed every day by people precisely because they are Christians. Their lives have been changed, and in some cases transformed, by their faith. My own life has been immeasurably blessed by people of faith who have walked the journey with me, who have shown me grace and encouraged me in difficult moments. But I can recognize that while also recognizing the wreckage around us.

    Something has gone amiss; pastors know it as well as anyone and better than most. The Jesus of the Gospels—the Jesus who won their hearts, and who long ago won mine—needs to be reclaimed.

  • #77265

    Yeah but enough with the potted version, can you give us a bit more detail?

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  • #77266

    tl;dr: racist Evangelical Christians aren’t racist enough to lead the Evangelical Christian church.

     

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  • #77268

    tl;dr: racist Evangelical Christians aren’t racist enough to lead the Evangelical Christian church.

     

    Trump replaced Jesus in evangelical churches.

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  • #77270

    Toddammit! That’s too long ;)

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  • #77278

    Toddammit! That’s too long ;)

    Jesus weak, Trump strong

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  • #77285

    Toddammit! That’s too long ;)

    Jesus weak, Trump strong

    You’re a poet, I sure know it.

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  • #77297

    I think the whole existence of Christianity as it is today is a bit puzzling. You have churches in the US that are fully on board with the BLM/LGBT people and you have things like these “Trump churches” or the trad catholics on the other side. The trad caths are a weird bunch, archbishop Vigano who is sort of their spiritual leader has said like we’re practically in the age of the Apocalypse and the antichrist is everywhere, masons and satanists are in charge of the Vatican etc.

     

    And I’m not even sure he’s wrong. The papal audience hall in the Vatican is pretty gruesome.

     

     

     

     

    The gnarly statue of Jesus in hell is in the mouth of the snake you can make out in the second picture, right between the two fangs. Now I’m paranoid about everything, but this…that nobody pointed out this looked terrible seems stunning to me.

     

     

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  • #77313

    Toddammit! That’s too long ;)

    Jesus weak, Trump strong

    Still too long. How about

    No Jesus. Only Trump.

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  • #77325

    The gnarly statue of Jesus in hell is in the mouth of the snake you can make out in the second picture, right between the two fangs. Now I’m paranoid about everything, but this…that nobody pointed out this looked terrible seems stunning to me.

    That is unbelievable. You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to see it, just have eyes and common sense and the imagery is obvious. I’m sure it wasn’t intended that way, and maybe it wasn’t as obvious on the architect’s drawing so it got approved, but as soon as it was built why didn’t somebody stand in it and say, hang on, we can’t have this… :unsure:

     

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  • #77328

    Not sure if you guys are taking the piss, but there is no way that snake-pareidolia you’re talking about is there without a fish-eye lens (or similar). Those windows are opposite each other.

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  • #77330

    Not sure if you guys are taking the piss, but there is no way that snake-pareidolia you’re talking about is there without a fish-eye lens (or similar). Those windows are opposite each other.

    Spoil sport B-)

    (No, I genuinely thought that was a legit image.)

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  • #77331

    Even if I’m wrong about the lens, which I admit is possible, I’d still count this as some sort of pareidolia.

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  • #77336

    Could be some kind of optical illusion, but then even if you just look at the shape of the building from the outside it isn’t hard to see it as a snake’s head. I think it’s an extremely odd artistic choice, especially right in the middle of the Vatican with its traditional buildings.

  • #77405

    Interesting idea that is coming clearer as older historians pass away and newer views of history take over. The so called barbarians are starting to be seen as a far more civilized and humane collection of cultures compared to the brutal Romans. Also, the influence of Rome on Christianity is the source of many of its later problems with intolerance.

    https://youtu.be/RwGDkF-tbp0

    https://youtu.be/7QXmPKJKVOY

     

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  • #77408

    Interesting idea that is coming clearer as older historians pass away and newer views of history take over. The so called barbarians are starting to be seen as a far more civilized and humane collection of cultures compared to the brutal Romans. Also, the influence of Rome on Christianity is the source of many of its later problems with intolerance.

    https://youtu.be/RwGDkF-tbp0

    https://youtu.be/7QXmPKJKVOY

     

    I was in Ravenna, those mosaics are incredible.

     

     

     

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  • #77419

    This could have been (or could still be) an interesting revision the producers of the Asimov FOUNDATION series could take. FOUNDATION emerged from the already dated idea that the Roman Empire was the pinnacle of civilization and its demise led to a thousand years of uncivilized violence and brutality. When really, the Romans were often more brutal, depraved and decadent than the civilizations they invaded, oppressed and then denigrated in their writings.

    So, it would be an interesting idea if Seldon is correct that the Empire will fall, but as the series progresses, we see he’s mistaken that ten thousand years of utter darkness will follow or that it would be better to lay the ground to rebuild a new Empire.

  • #77423

    Also, the influence of Rome on Christianity is the source of many of its later problems with intolerance.

    i’m not so sure about that. the R.C., in some cases, is much more compassionate and forgiving than the Baptists or the Episcopal Church. Many of the Evangelical and Protestant branches are where many of the Trump followers come from. Reverend Moore from Footloose was not a R.C.

     

     

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  • #77425

    FOUNDATION emerged from the already dated idea that the Roman Empire was the pinnacle of civilization and its demise led to a thousand years of uncivilized violence and brutality. When really, the Romans were often more brutal, depraved and decadent than the civilizations they invaded, oppressed and then denigrated in their writings.

    They just had better tech really didn’t they?

    I mean you see that in the modern day, when I went to Cambodia in the mid 2000s they had one ATM in the entire country and petrol was sold from plastic 2 litre water bottles on the side of the road rather than big automated pumps. So in that sense you’d get ‘back to civilization’ jokes but the place seemed very safe and everyone we met was kind and polite, definitely more so than you’d see in big western cities where people are often abrupt and cold. Does ‘civilization’ mean high tech or people being civil to each other?

    You add that then to history being written by the victors. There’s an amusing 18th century piece written by an Englishman about Wales where they are portrayed, quite amusingly in modern context, as having huge sexual appetites and being at it day and night. That’s a concept that repeats in colonialism of all types, the ‘shagging savages’ that can never control their sexual urges.  Yet history shows us the nobility were exactly the same. 18th century novels are full of unsubtle references to mysterious ‘cousins’ that appear out of nowhere. Long before he became PM the BBC did an episode of a family tree show with Boris Johnson, it turned out he was most likely descended from a king (I forget which one, Charles 1st maybe) but one of his bastards from an affair.

     

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  • #77431

    i’m not so sure about that. the R.C., in some cases, is much more compassionate and forgiving than the Baptists or the Episcopal Church. Many of the Evangelical and Protestant branches are where many of the Trump followers come from. Reverend Moore from Footloose was not a R.C.

    True but I think Johnny was looking further back to the establishment, protestant churches still stem from the thousand plus years of Catholicism before them, the books of the Bible they read were selected by Constantine and his mum.

    I’d agree in modern terms the evangelical churches do go further to extremes although that is variable by location. That political and far right element is maybe not exclusively but mostly a US thing (there are hints of that in Scotland and Ireland at times). I was raised Methodist and a Baptist church was next to us and they really were the most inoffensive churches you could find. I never rebelled against my religion, it was extremely mild and friendly, we mostly sang and did stuff for charity.

    The episcopal church is essentially an offshoot of the Anglican church and they are as sappy as they come. They have openly gay priests and ordained women and have bishops that argue maybe you don’t need to take the virgin birth literally.

  • #77445

    Most protestant churches in the Netherlands are pretty liberal these days, but there are a few that are still very strict. Between the town where I was born and the town where I now live there is a small village which is very strict protestant. My friend is a teacher and he ended up at a church service there through one of his students and he was shocked by the “fire and brimstone” sermon, everything was sin etc. and they even mentioned people from the village who were deceased who they say ended up in hell.

     

    Catholicism is also quite liberal here. It’s mostly in the South of the country but there are catholic communities spread everywhere in the other parts of the country too. My father’s family was from Amsterdam and he was never baptised but the family was originally Catholic. In numbers the Catholic community is the single largest religious community in the Netherlands.

  • #77448

    I think the key thing with a lot of Protestant churches is they were often described under the moniker ‘noncomformist’. They can essentially do what they like with no central control. Anglicanism has some of that as a holdover with a ruling archbishop and  general synod and the like but it’s pretty toothless globally.

    Protestants are the originators of the ‘fire and brimstone’ sermon but they can equally be the exact opposite, in my church they had a service where they played an anti war song by the gay band Bronski Beat. Islam is very similar too, there really isn’t a central authority so the variation in interpretation is pretty massive. It’s mostly within my lifetime the Wahabi style extreme reading has taken more hold but isn’t dominant. I went to a flea market a few years back and they had a 1970s Guinness advert suggesting breaking Ramadan fast with a pint of the black stuff.

    Catholicism has its global standard, the mass is essentially the same everywhere and to appeal so widely they still fit in to local norms. The thing there is more about emphasis, my wife has been born and raised a Catholic and when we first started dating and discussion came around birth control she actually wasn’t aware the church didn’t approve of condoms. She’s not dumb, she has a masters degree, speaks several languages and is a company director, it’s just not a subject that they really cared to talk about. Just as the move from Benedict to Francis has not changed any actual rules of the religion, Francis just emphasises the more liberal aspects of helping poor people over subjugating women.

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  • #77451

    i’m not so sure about that. the R.C., in some cases, is much more compassionate and forgiving than the Baptists or the Episcopal Church. Many of the Evangelical and Protestant branches are where many of the Trump followers come from. Reverend Moore from Footloose was not a R.C.

    that’s a slightly different point. I’m actually referring to the Roman Empire’s authoritarian influence on the early Church and early Middle Ages persecution of heresies that were actually more tolerant.
    The Roman Catholic Church today is much changed primarily due to the Protestant reformation but almost all Christian churches emerge from the early Roman influence including the Eastern Orthodox.

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  • #78158

    I’m actually referring to the Roman Empire’s authoritarian influence on the early Church and early Middle Ages persecution of heresies that were actually more tolerant.

    Yeah there was basically continuity from the Roman Empire to the Christian civilization post-empire in Italy and other former provinces. Making Christianity into a kind of cheat. We pretend to be meek and mild while creating a strict authoritarian and often militaristic regime. The whole church hierarchy is Roman, with the pope being the pontifex maximus, which is the same title the head priest of the ancient Roman religion had.

     

    The whole meek and mild angle of Christianity can be OK sometimes but I don’t like the idea of non-resistance to evil.

  • #78315

    I honestly think you can draw a direct line from Christianity to the self hating, “we suck” movement on the left, as well as the right. The whole idea behind being an intellectual in a large part of the Western world – though I think most in Anglophone countries – is to bash your own country and heritage. I think that is often pointed out to be the case for the left, but the same sentiment exists on the right. The whole Trump movement was also about bashing American institutions and history, bashing things like democracy, international cooperation, human rights, etc. Many of the things that are good about the West.

     

    I think there’s a link there to the concept of original sin or total depravity. It’s really a sickening ideology. Like in Christianity, we deserve punishment – we deserve punishment for climate change, wars, racism etc. And it’s kind of the same priestly class that metes out the punishment. The actual priests in the Middle Ages, and journalists and intellectuals now. They want us to bend the knee. On the right, it’s kind of the same, we deserve punishment for our perversions, for gay rights, abortion rights etc.

     

    We could be truly fucked, there’s very little common sense on either side of the ideological divide. Both sides are increasingly embracing authoritarianism. And I think it’s almost a mirror image of this toxic mix of humiliation and moral purity that exists in Christianity.

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  • #78342

    I honestly think you can draw a direct line from Christianity to the self hating, “we suck” movement on the left, as well as the right.

    What version of Christianity are you referencing here? Certainly not the “Christianity” that Trump and his constituents claim to be part of. Their version of Christianity involves hating others, as opposed to self-hating; of wanting to punish and humiliate others rather than themselves.

    True Christians — that is, people who follow and believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ — should be closer to the ideologies of the Left regarding equality, taking care of the poor and downtrodden, and loving others. Instead, the so-called Christian movement seems to embrace an attitude of denying rights to anyone with a different ethnicity or sexual orientation, and turning a blind eye to social programs that would benefit the truly needy and thus raise the quality of life for all people.

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  • #78357

    I agree if you take that version of Christianity you are closer to left wing ideas. I was referring mainly to the idea of the Fall of Man from Genesis which according to mainstream theology makes mankind inherently sinful which is I think a very dark message and it has echos in current day left and right wing ideology.

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  • #78433

    The whole meek and mild angle of Christianity can be OK sometimes but I don’t like the idea of non-resistance to evil.

    That speaks more to the focus of the central tenet of the Gospels which essentially boils down to “don’t give in to the temptations of the flesh.” Or do not let the emotions born in the body rule the mind (or the soul). In a sense, evil actions attempt to torment your mind through your body. The example of torture is the extreme one and it is essentially the central tenet of all dramas.

    The torturer or sadist isn’t interested in inflicting pain on the flesh but in bringing about suffering in the mind. Therefore, if you place yourself above the demands of the flesh then you have freed your mind from all suffering. I have to believe that this essential tenet grew up in the early Eastern Church where ascetic practices were common from North Africa to India.

    Also, it brings into focus the basic idea that fighting what a person considers evil is not the same as doing good. An essential element of Christianity was that no matter who a person met, the whole purpose of being born and thrown into the earthly world was to do that other person good. At heart, that other person is you – they didn’t choose the time or place of their birth or their body and they are who you would have been if you had come into the world on their same path.

    So, sin is not simply defined as an offence against God’s will. In the end, whatever happens is necessarily God’s will in Christian philosophy. Sin in its real, living sense is a debt you take on to yourself when you succumb to evil which always originates in one or another passion of the body – the flesh.

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  • #78437

    The torturer or sadist isn’t interested in inflicting pain on the flesh but in bringing about suffering in the mind. Therefore, if you place yourself above the demands of the flesh then you have freed your mind from all suffering. I have to believe that this essential tenet grew up in the early Eastern Church where ascetic practices were common from North Africa to India.

    Well I dunno…if you’re being tortured, I hope you can free yourself from the torture, without having to turn the other cheek.

     

    Alan Watts I think once did a talk on there being two separate religions that Egyptian priests taught, a separate religion for the lowly people and one for the rulers. The commoners were taught subservience and passivity while the rulers were taught how to keep the people under control. I wonder if there’s an anti-Christianity that basically teaches that, how to herd the masses. That’s probably politics come to think of it.

     

    I am not bashing all of Christianity, I think there are good parts. Like I said the whole total depravity doctrine is just toxic I think. It’s a mind virus.

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  • #78463

    Alan Watts I think once did a talk on there being two separate religions that Egyptian priests taught, a separate religion for the lowly people and one for the rulers. The commoners were taught subservience and passivity while the rulers were taught how to keep the people under control. I wonder if there’s an anti-Christianity that basically teaches that, how to herd the masses. That’s probably politics come to think of it.

    It’s not religion that teaches that as much as all of society itself. Most people want to be told what to do but also to be told they are free to not do it… and then they do what they are told anyway, but now it’s their “choice.” Even non-conformists tend to conform to the image of non-conformity. Even the so-called leaders telling people what to do are mostly just telling them to do what they already were going to do anyway.

    Today that sort of “elite teaching” really applies to rich vs poor. Money is a tool – literally an instrument of exchange – that people can learn to use, but the way it is perceived and presented to the masses is not only a childish viewpoint but literally the worst way anyone would want money to be used.

    On the other hand, if more people were educated in the Way of the Dollar as it is being used by the most wealthy, we’d essentially be in a real-life version of A Piece of the Action.

  • #78466

    I agree if you take that version of Christianity you are closer to left wing ideas. I was referring mainly to the idea of the Fall of Man from Genesis which according to mainstream theology makes mankind inherently sinful which is I think a very dark message and it has echos in current day left and right wing ideology.

    This is an essential point as well.

    If I were Christian, I’d have to accept that God has put people into a universe and on a world where there is no God and the Divine Plan is that there is no plan. This somewhat similar to Zizek’s point of view on Atheist Christianity. God died and left mankind to do good in a world without God.

    That’s something I think is missed in the paradox of omniscience and omnipotence. People want to control things, but that’s because we are all vulnerable to misfortunes of all kinds. If I were a god, I wouldn’t need anything so why would I want to control anything? I certainly wouldn’t need to make any plans.

    At the same time, hidden in that is the question what makes a person vulnerable to misfortune and suffering. It’s almost always our frame of perspective — often something we’ve grown up with — that determines what makes us suffer.

    You talked about the resistance to evil, and I don’t know if anyone here has had serious addiction problems, but over time you learn that resisting the impulses very quickly becomes a part of the addiction. It’s an internal drama that ends usually with succumbing to the addiction — a negotiation that you want to lose. A bad bargain.

    Again, fighting evil is not the same as doing good. Fighting evil is actually being driven by evil. Your actions are determined by the evil you perceive and over time, that justifies the evil you do in fighting it.

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  • #78544

    Again, fighting evil is not the same as doing good. Fighting evil is actually being driven by evil. Your actions are determined by the evil you perceive and over time, that justifies the evil you do in fighting it.

    Do you think violence is necessarily evil? I disagree. I think that’s a kind of moral trap, it allows your abusers to do whatever they want without the possibility to resist. You kinda have to consider the possibility that the rule that you can’t fight back is something invented by the abuser. When you’re taught not to resist you’re easy to conquer.

     

    (Not saying fighting evil is necessarily violent, there are many approaches of course. For instance education could also be fighting evil, charity, etc. But I think violence is your main problem with fighting evil)

  • #78555

    Do you think violence is necessarily evil? I disagree. I think that’s a kind of moral trap, it allows your abusers to do whatever they want without the possibility to resist. You kinda have to consider the possibility that the rule that you can’t fight back is something invented by the abuser. When you’re taught not to resist you’re easy to conquer.

    However, all conquerors excuse their actions by claiming it was for the interests of defense in defiance of evil. That was the justification for our soldiers in Afghanistan. While the Jihadists and fundamentalists made the same claims for fighting back. Everyone was caught up in the fight against evil and it simply fueled the fires of even worse evils.

  • #78557

    Well those are examples where those who claim to fight evil actually did evil, I agree. But take the resistance in European countries during the nazi occupation… I mean like the French resistance, the groups that fought back against occupation in their own countries. Would you say they shouldn’t do that?

    It just seems counter instinctual…if you’re attacked, it seems the natural reaction to defend yourself.

  • #78564

    However, what did the French turn around and do in Algeria and Indochine right after the war? A lot of children of WW2 in the UK lived through the Battle of Britain only to grow up in a country that felt to them like it was run by Nazis.

    The deeper question is what led you into the position of being attacked? World War 2 is brought up often as a clear fight between good and evil, but the United States was still pushing natives off their land, lynching and falsely imprisoning African Americans and the European powers all had subjugated colonies from Africa to the Pacific. To most of the world it was a war between different nations of genocidal oppressors.

    if more good had been done long before the violence then evil would not flourish and there is far more talk about fighting evil than discussion on doing good.

  • #78565

    if more good had been done long before the violence then evil would not flourish and there is far more talk about fighting evil than discussion on doing good.

    Fair enough, this is probably true. However I think you can’t deny occupied or oppressed people the right to defend themselves, and to strike back against the oppressor. Of course the French did bad things too, but that doesn’t mean the resistance shouldn’t have the right to fight back.

    I think you can draw the line all the way to self defense. If someone attacks you on the street, should you let him?

  • #78587

    Depends on what they want, of course. If they just want your wallet, then of course give it to them.

    However, again, that is more like getting struck by lightning. It’s not really a good example of a moral quandary. If someone attacks you on the street, honestly, you aren’t going to do anything because they will have the advantage.

    Nevertheless, we have a couple cases here in the US all over the news about shootings that claim self defense, and we’ve had cases before like the Trayvon Martin killing where even if either side in the situation was completely right and honest in their intentions, neither of them would have been doing good. More good would have come out of it if everyone involved had done absolutely nothing, and we’d never know about it.

    The only time a person can do any good is right now because now is the only time you can do anything. And the only good a person can do is for the other people they are with. Again, though, there isn’t much conversation about what is good and what good can we do, but more about what’s right! (or even less interesting, what’s wrong.)

    You talk the French Resistance, but what about German civilians in the post-war in Soviet occupied Germany? The Red Army committed numerous war crimes against the German civilians. Would you say they deserved it? Should the Germans have formed a resistance against the Allies? Obviously, most French did not join the resistance (though many would say they did after the war), so were they committing evil by not resisting?

  • #78632

    You talk the French Resistance, but what about German civilians in the post-war in Soviet occupied Germany? The Red Army committed numerous war crimes against the German civilians. Would you say they deserved it? Should the Germans have formed a resistance against the Allies? Obviously, most French did not join the resistance (though many would say they did after the war), so were they committing evil by not resisting?

    All tyranny should be resisted but it’s tough to condemn anyone for not joining the resistance, obviously most people are not all that heroic. That doesn’t necessarily make them bad people.

    I think at least part of the thing we’re doscussing is the imprecision of language, of course resistance to evil doesn’t have to be violent, there are many ways to do it. If you can change the mind of someone who was planning to hurt someone that is also “fighting evil”. Violence should be a last resort. (A bit like the term jihad in the Quran often doesn’t refer to war but a spiritual striving or struggle.) Fighting evil can be as diverse as fighting some occupying force with bombs, or fighting political corruption, protesting against some kind of human rights violation, or even curing cancer. Or struggling with your own urges to do something bad.

    Would you say some people deserve punishment for the bad things they do or should everything be forgiven?

  • #78635

    Would you say some people deserve punishment for the bad things they do or should everything be forgiven?

    I don’t really think any human being can judge or has any authority to. what could possibly make anyone think they have the inside track to know who should be punished and what the right punishment should be. Doesn’t matter if it is one judge or twelve juror, zero times any number still gives you zero.

    However, explain to me the point of the punishment in the first place. We’re punishing millions of people every day from courts and prisons to families and schools and it doesn’t seem to make a difference. One year is pretty much the same as the next. Societies with light legal punishments and no prisons can have less crime than those with more severe.

    Again, punishing evil is not the same as doing good. It should not take a major part of our time or attention.

    now, you are arguing above that the culture is designed to reward the leading minority that has its own set of rules. So surely most of the punishments imposed are done so by their authority and against those that defy the rules in that elite interest. So unless you are or want to be a member of that elite, there is only the incentive to oppose it and refuse to punish.

     

  • #78637

    However, explain to me the point of the punishment in the first place. We’re punishing millions of people every day from courts and prisons to families and schools and it doesn’t seem to make a difference. One year is pretty much the same as the next. Societies with light legal punishments and no prisons can have less crime than those with more severe.

    I’m often in favor of lighter or alternative punishments but I don’t think we have had societies that don’t punish their evildoers at all. If you have examples of that I would love to hear it, I think it’s an interesting debate. Norway is often mentioned as a country with lighter punishments and nicer prisons but they still have prisons with prisoners in them.

    I’m honestly not quite sure what the purpose of some punishments is, beyond removing the danger of re-offending in the case of psychopaths and repeat sexual offenders. it often seems a variation on “an eye for an eye” which is kind of a primitive notion. You hurt me, I hurt you in return.

  • #78638

    Do you guys seriously believe in evil? I don’t mean to be condescending, but the concept of evil sounds a bit cartoony to me. There is always a better, more thorough descriptor for any kind of behaviour or person than just calling it/them “evil”. It’s kids stories level of otherization.

  • #78641

    Do you guys seriously believe in evil? I don’t mean to be condescending, but the concept of evil sounds a bit cartoony to me. There is always a better, more thorough descriptor for any kind of behaviour or person than just calling it/them “evil”. It’s kids stories level of otherization.

    I have often wondered of “good” is simply the fear of punishment and/or pain. When you do not conrfom to the group/society, you receive some sort of sanction depending on the severity of the transgression. This goes back to hunter/gather times when going against the needs of the group would jeopardize everyone.

    “Evil” people are those who do not fear the punishment, or at least have a higher threshold for the reprocussions.

  • #78642

    Well it fits as a word. Wether evil is something metaphysical or some kind of brainwrong or something else, I am not quite sure. But yeah certain things and behaviors I would describe as evil.

  • #78643

    I have often wondered of “good” is simply the fear of punishment and/or pain. When you do not conrfom to the group/society, you receive some sort of sanction depending on the severity of the transgression. This goes back to hunter/gather times when going against the needs of the group would jeopardize everyone.

    “Evil” people are those who do not fear the punishment, or at least have a higher threshold for the reprocussions.

    I agree sometimes the words are used that way, but sometimes there are instances when what the group wants is actually immoral or evil, and going against the group or what the majority wants is what is good.

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  • #78659

    Do you guys seriously believe in evil?

    in general, evil is simply misfortune. Evil actions are those that cause misfortune to others and in the end evil punishes those that commit it as well because they don’t benefit from the good they could have done instead.

    I can’t really believe that people are evil. People are too complex. Real people aren’t characters in a story. Our lives aren’t stories. They are a whole lot of stories overlapping at the same time. We’re each the heroes of our own stories but we are also supporting characters in each other’s stories.

    In any story though, there is only one character that doesn’t support anyone else. That’s the villain.

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  • #78665

    I can’t really believe that people are evil.

    Me neither, I think people are basically good in their core. Evil is more like something that possesses someone, like a bad influence that you invite. Or like a layer of dirt that you can wash off.

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  • #78691

    I agree sometimes the words are used that way, but sometimes there are instances when what the group wants is actually immoral or evil, and going against the group or what the majority wants is what is good.

    True, whenever you hear an accusation of evil in public, whether you agree or not, usually the accuser (or writer) has nothing good in mind when they do it.

  • #78700

    I think it’s kinda funny that people who are all about superhero comics, Star Wars etc. are cynical about a concept like evil… ;)

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  • #78734

    I can’t really believe that people are evil.

    I think that greed and selfishness — in other words, consistently putting your own interests above that of others even when it would be no real effort to you to hold out a helping hand — is evil. And plenty of people are like that.

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  • #78766

    But do they choose to be like that? That’s the distinction here. Greed, like envy, anger and all the other so called deadly sins are not chosen. They are emotionally driven and no one chooses to feel emotions.

    So, we meet a person who is angry, greedy, envious or lustful and we blame them for being that way, but the core of the problem is that they are being controlled by those emotions they never really chose to have or necessarily want. It’s the basic helplessness of being human that we can’t control what can hurt us internally or externally. But societies are built on denying both our obvious and widespread inability to control our emotions and drives and our final absolute mortality.

    So we pretend that no one really needs help and that if we all follow the rules we’ll live forever. But the people we consider the most evil are likely those that need the most help rather than punishment and we all end up dying unhappy because no one is willing to help anyone unless they “deserve” it.

  • #78779

    I find it very tough to define “evil”…I think it is a term that has heavy metaphysical overtones and I’m not sure there is any metaphysical dimension to what I personally call evil…so maybe if I was being completely rational, I should use another word. I’m not sure though. Emotionally the word seems to fit for the worst acts of immorality.

     

    I listened to videos by a certain anarcho-primitivist, Derek Jensen for a while. I thought he had a fascinating view on some things. He thought it was evil to destroy nature (beyond basic needs, like for food) and he linked such destructive behavior to other evils, like sexual abuse. I think there is something to that, an urge to destroy, defile, distort. However on the other hand, certain things should be destroyed.

  • #78780

    But do they choose to be like that? That’s the distinction here. Greed, like envy, anger and all the other so called deadly sins are not chosen. They are emotionally driven and no one chooses to feel emotions.

    I am not so sure about this. It is definitely true in some cases, some people really have little or no control over their feelings and actions, but I doubt if it is always true. I think we do have some kind of free will to choose better alternatives than greed.

     

    I have trouble with arguments that just throw away free will, like we are no more evil than the cordyceps fungus for what it does to ants.

     

     

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  • #78787

    But do they choose to be like that? That’s the distinction here. Greed, like envy, anger and all the other so called deadly sins are not chosen. They are emotionally driven and no one chooses to feel emotions.

    So, we meet a person who is angry, greedy, envious or lustful and we blame them for being that way, but the core of the problem is that they are being controlled by those emotions they never really chose to have or necessarily want. It’s the basic helplessness of being human that we can’t control what can hurt us internally or externally. But societies are built on denying both our obvious and widespread inability to control our emotions and drives and our final absolute mortality.

    So we pretend that no one really needs help and that if we all follow the rules we’ll live forever. But the people we consider the most evil are likely those that need the most help rather than punishment and we all end up dying unhappy because no one is willing to help anyone unless they “deserve” it.

    But surely that then ignores the moral dimension, in the sense of humans being sufficiently intelligent to recognise those natural impulses and be able to overcome them (because we recognise that they ultimately lead to negative outcomes, whether for ourselves or others).

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  • #78807

    This seemed appropriate for the current discussion:

    Six Boys Washed Up On A Desert Island, And They Survived A Year Just Fine

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  • #78857

    So we pretend that no one really needs help and that if we all follow the rules we’ll live forever. But the people we consider the most evil are likely those that need the most help rather than punishment and we all end up dying unhappy because no one is willing to help anyone unless they “deserve” it.

    Christianity is very schizophrenic about this. Jesus in the gospels is all about forgiveness and helping people mend their ways. But other parts (Paul’s epistles) and the official theology definitely do call humans evil.

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  • #78878

    But surely that then ignores the moral dimension, in the sense of humans being sufficiently intelligent to recognise those natural impulses and be able to overcome them (because we recognise that they ultimately lead to negative outcomes, whether for ourselves or others).

    however, I’ve seen no real evidence that is true even in the most moral people.

    that point of view is basically the influence of rational egoism and invariably it ends with some sort of inhuman ideal like Neitzsche’s Overman or Trotsky’s New Man. It’s the basis of both Ayn Rand’s Objectivism and ironically Marxist Leninism that drove her family from Russia when Rand was a girl.

    It’s a philosophy though that originated in a Russian novel called something like WHAT SHALL BE DONE by a writer named Chernyshevsky. However, Dostoevsky was so disgusted by it that he wrote NOTES FROM AN UNDERGROUND MAN. No one remembers Chernyshevsky and everyone knows Dostoevsky but arguably the former is responsible for far more damaging ideas especially in our political history.

    Reason actually has very little to do with our lives. Like that line in ANNA KARENINA where Levin is working alongside a peasant on his estate and explains he believes in reason and cause and effect.

    The peasant simply responds “was it reason made you choose your wife?”

    we can find reasons for what we do but it hardly really drives us to do them.

    Gurdjieff had an interesting take on it. For him we were driven by our unconscious which had far greater power in every way than our consciousness. So his methods were essentially to influence the unconscious rather than the rational to allow a healthy mind emerge. Not to fight the unreasonable urges or impulses but to accept them and work with them.

    animals are far more rational than people. It’s not our reason that makes us human but our defiance of it.

    reasonable men adapt themselves to their circumstances. Unreasonable men force their circumstances to adapt to them therefore all progress depends upon unreasonable men. – Shaw

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  • #78886

    however, I’ve seen no real evidence that is true even in the most moral people.

    You’ve seen no evidence that people can control their animal urges and not act on them, whether for their own benefit or for the benefit of a greater good?

    Isn’t that what society is? If not, why aren’t we all killing each other? Doesn’t a lawful society rely on people controlling themselves in this way?

    The peasant simply responds “was it reason made you choose your wife?” we can find reasons for what we do but it hardly really drives us to do them.

    Just because our thought processes sometimes rely on instinctive or natural urges, doesn’t mean that they always do – and certainly doesn’t mean that we always act on them.

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  • #78891

    I think it is just self evident most people have some level of control over their “primal urges” but it varies. Obviously we’re not all killing and raping each other all the time or drinking or drugging ourselves to death, but some people lack those controls. We’re beings of instinct and also reason.

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  • #78911

    You’ve seen no evidence that people can control their animal urges and not act on them, whether for their own benefit or for the benefit of a greater good? Isn’t that what society is? If not, why aren’t we all killing each other? Doesn’t a lawful society rely on people controlling themselves in this way?

    Right, I don’t see any evidence people are controlling their urges. Instead, what I see and experience is that people have stronger urges to get along. How often do you really want to actually hurt someone when it isn’t immediately met with a desire for some sort of reconciliation and return to peace? The pretense is that we feel some unpleasant emotion and then we reasonably “control” it, but no one can honestly say that’s what they did after an argument with a spouse or coworker. Instead, we’re driven by an extreme social urge that really is much stronger than we usually acknowledge. Much much stronger than anything in an ape society.

    We don’t control anything – it’s just one urge that rises up against the other. We are always acting on urges and our reasoning mostly is after the fact or biased by those urges.

    However, the truth is that we are killing each other quite a bit anyway. Less so than in the past, but still a lot of war and murder going on. Laws aren’t stopping it. It’s not like the main reason you haven’t shot somebody or robbed a bank is that it is against the law, is it?

    When society wants people to kill, it has to spend thousands of dollars training and conditioning them to do it. Like Ranger school training in the US Army. It is incredibly hard to get soldiers to actually shoot to kill at the enemy mainly because every soldier knows that the person he’s supposed to kill is essentially just like him – some guy sent into battle by somebody else.

  • #78917

    Right, I don’t see any evidence people are controlling their urges. Instead, what I see and experience is that people have stronger urges to get along. How often do you really want to actually hurt someone when it isn’t immediately met with a desire for some sort of reconciliation and return to peace? The pretense is that we feel some unpleasant emotion and then we reasonably “control” it, but no one can honestly say that’s what they did after an argument with a spouse or coworker. Instead, we’re driven by an extreme social urge that really is much stronger than we usually acknowledge. Much much stronger than anything in an ape society. We don’t control anything – it’s just one urge that rises up against the other. We are always acting on urges and our reasoning mostly is after the fact or biased by those urges.

    That’s just another way of describing the moral choices I’m talking about, though.

    All you’re saying is that we end up making the choices that we choose to make. Of course we do. It’s a circular, self-fulfilling definition.

    But that idea of conflicting urges, and being able to suppress one urge in favour of another – because we have an intellectual understanding that the first one would lead us (either individually or collectively) to a bad place – is pretty much exactly what I’m talking about when it comes to moral choices. You’re just choosing to characterise that moral choice as another natural urge.

    So coming back to your earlier point about meeting someone who is greedy or lustful or whatever and blaming them for that – I don’t think people are blaming them for the natural urge so much as blaming them for their inability to control those urges and act against them when the situation demands it.

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  • #78927

    I don’t think there is any intellect involved except as an enabler. We don’t conscious choose or control the urge to get along with each other any more than we control negative urges. We don’t choose who we fall in love with so why do we expect that other people have chosen who or what they hate?

    The urges lead to the reasons rather than the other way around. This is also true of punishment. There is no reasoning for the punishments inflicted by law on criminals or more social forms of humiliation and ostracization that is inflicted gleefully on people seen as transgressing the norms. We’re not blaming them for the inability to control their urges, but using them as scapegoats upon which to unleash the pent up urges we want to express.

     

  • #78941

    The urges lead to the reasons rather than the other way around.

    I don’t know if this is true, though. There are plenty of situations where we suppress quite powerful basic urges because we know better.

    Imagine you’re out at a public event, you desperately need the toilet, and there’s a queue. Do you just piss on the floor in front of everybody? Do you push your way through the queue to get to the front? Or do you do what 99% of people do and wait your turn, putting up with a bit of discomfort?

    Imagine you’re desperately hungry and you see a grocery store – do you run in and grab food off the shelf and start eating it immediately? Or do you wait an extra few minutes and pay for it like most people would?

    Yes, you might argue that in situations like this we make these choices because we know that we’ll face negative consequences for acting on our impulses – a fight in a public bathroom or being collared by a security guard. But that’s exactly what I’m talking about – being able to act against our base urges because we know that there are good reasons why we shouldn’t follow them.

    These aren’t mysterious, impulsive and unknowable choices like who you fall in love with. They’re rational, intellectual choices that an intelligent animal is able to make despite their most basic urges telling them to do the opposite.

    I don’t deny that some of our actions are directly motivated by primal and instinctive urges. But that doesn’t mean that all of them are.

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  • #78947

    It’s a mixed picture I think, sometimes you can’t even be sure where instinct stops and reason begins.

     

    Also you can make some colossaly stupid (and evil)  mistakes using reason and some brilliant compassionate decisions by instinct.

     

    It is interesting to speculate about the role of instinct and reason and our capacity to exercise free will but ultimately I think it’s one of the philosophical questions there just is no definitive answers to and it may be more an issue of belief.

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  • #78956

    Another aspect of the weakening of the concept of free will in some circles is the idea that we can’t take care of ourselves, and therefore decisions have to be taken for us by a sufficiently strong authority, some ultimate source of wisdom (which used to be the priest I guess). That fits in with the whole nurse Ratched society our countries have turned into with covid.

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  • #78976

    But do they choose to be like that? That’s the distinction here. Greed, like envy, anger and all the other so called deadly sins are not chosen. They are emotionally driven and no one chooses to feel emotions.

    True, you can’t control your emotions. But emotional responses are immediate and transitory. If somebody triggers you, you feel immediate anger, and maybe you’ll lash out. It’s something you can’t control.

    But what you can control is what happens after that, because after the emotion (quickly) fades, what happens next is entirely in the control of the rational mind.

    So if somebody cuts you off in traffic, you can perhaps be forgiven for screaming obscenities at him, he’s made you angry and that’s an emotional response you can’t entirely control. If you then follow him for the next 10 miles, wait until he parks, and walk up to his car and shoot him, that’s not an emotional response, that’s an entirely voluntary act that you’ve had half an hour to consider and still think is a good idea. That’s gone from an involuntary human response to premediated evil.

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  • #79038

    But what you can control is what happens after that, because after the emotion (quickly) fades, what happens next is entirely in the control of the rational mind.

    I don’t see that though. We’re rarely using our rational mind except to serve our emotional satisfaction.

    Just think about the basic process of the mind. You do not choose the thoughts or words that come to your mind. It might seem like it, but just think about when you cannot remember a word – when it is on the “tip of your tongue.” Where are these words coming from? What is pushing them and the thoughts we have to the “front” of our mind?

    It is definitely not something in our control. Because, the emotion of anger does not simply “fade” like a tide naturally recedes. Instead, it is driven down by counter emotional coping or empathetic responses that you don’t control either but we are lucky that most of us have. I’m sure you’ve met or know people that do not have those counters and their anger does not fade. They hold a grudge and it remains as bright and furious years later.

    This isn’t in our control any more than what we are actually conscious of is something we rationally select. Instead, the rational mind is always biased toward enabling and supporting the urges and providing methods for acquiring what we want (which often is really not what we consciously think we want) and justifying the behavior with reasons why we did what our urges really compelled us to do.

    We’re just lucky that most of us are driven much more strongly by the urge for peace and desire for emotional contentment rather than our negative anti-social impulses. However, I doubt anyone chose to be that way.

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  • #79039

    Yes, you might argue that in situations like this we make these choices because we know that we’ll face negative consequences for acting on our impulses – a fight in a public bathroom or being collared by a security guard. But that’s exactly what I’m talking about – being able to act against our base urges because we know that there are good reasons why we shouldn’t follow them.

    However, my point is that we are not rationally acting against our base urges but that our urges also include empathy and, especially, the fear of discomfort.

    Have you ever really taken a moment to rationally assess whether or not you should piss on the floor or cut in line or start a fight in a bar? The immediate response is going to be fear of getting in trouble. You’re not going to have to think about it or rationally oppose those “base urges” because another much stronger urge is going to rise up and do that for you. Your rational mind is going to be there and explain it to you as free will, but really it is just conceding to a much stronger urge that society is really dependent upon.

    This is similar to the basic superego-ego-id relationship in Freudian psychoanalysis, but everyone has this mistaken idea that the super-ego is rational and the id is irrational, but they are the same thing and equally irrational but representing different urges – and both are out of control of the ego.

  • #79044

    Have you ever really taken a moment to rationally assess whether or not you should piss on the floor or cut in line or start a fight in a bar? The immediate response is going to be fear of getting in trouble. You’re not going to have to think about it or rationally oppose those “base urges” because another much stronger urge is going to rise up and do that for you. Your rational mind is going to be there and explain it to you as free will, but really it is just conceding to a much stronger urge that society is really dependent upon.

    The classic counter-example to that is the person who’s driving on a deserted highway in the middle of the night and still stops at a red light. That’s a conscious decision that runs against your basic desires (to get where you’re going) and isn’t motivated by any counter urges or fears (nobody is going to know either way what choice you make), but the person makes a conscious, rational decision to do it simply because they think it’s the right thing to do.

  • #79051

    The classic counter-example to that is the person who’s driving on a deserted highway in the middle of the night and still stops at a red light. That’s a conscious decision that runs against your basic desires (to get where you’re going) and isn’t motivated by any counter urges or fears (nobody is going to know either way what choice you make), but the person makes a conscious, rational decision to do it simply because they think it’s the right thing to do.

    However, it is not rational. That’s the exact example of what I mean. If you are only doing something because of conditioned responses, then you are not in control. You’re just obeying the urge to obey the rules. It’s not that nobody will know, but that you will know, and who you are to yourself is at least as important as what other people think about you.

    Rationally, you would have judged the situation and just run the light, but emotionally, you take satisfaction from doing the right thing. It’s still an emotional urge, not a rational one, to obey the rules. And, of course, your mind will bring up all sorts of unrealistic hypothetical situations – maybe there is a jogger wearing black that you don’t see running along the road in the middle of the night. What if a puppy runs across the intersection right as you run the light? Oh, you’d be in the wrong. Or, worst of all, maybe there is a police officer you don’t see just waiting for someone to run that light. It’s still emotion and not reason – and it’s a good thing we do not rely on reason for our moral choices.

    Rationally, if you piss on the floor at a club, nothing would happen to you as chances are no one wants the trouble to interfere with you. People cut you off all the time in traffic, do they get in trouble? Usually no, so they are probably making the most rational decision considering the situation, but they aren’t doing it out of rational reasons, but out of driven selfish urges that they then rationalize.

    These urges though are changed and evolve through experience. Situations that leave us with severe emotional impact change our responses to future situation, but primarily in the sense that we avoid experiencing the self-punishment, recrimination – we don’t rationally assess consequences objectively. However, we end up being better people because of it – because it’s been our capacity to love irrationally and to empathize with no reason to that we’ve managed to create a society that doesn’t completely tear itself apart.

     

  • #79056

    However, it is not rational. That’s the exact example of what I mean. If you are only doing something because of conditioned responses, then you are not in control. You’re just obeying the urge to obey the rules. It’s not that nobody will know, but that you will know, and who you are to yourself is at least as important as what other people think about you.

    Rationally, you would have judged the situation and just run the light, but emotionally, you take satisfaction from doing the right thing. It’s still an emotional urge, not a rational one, to obey the rules.

    This is a good example of what I was saying earlier about your logic being circular and self fulfilling.

    If the person in our example were to take the impulsive decision to follow their desires and run the red light, then you’d characterise that as an emotional and instinctive decision. But if they take the opposite choice, then you also characterise that as an emotional rather than rational urge.

    If you adopt a philosophy where every possible choice is going to be able to be defined by you as impulsive and emotional rather than rational or moral, then of course it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    According to your definitions every choice we make is impulsive and emotional. But that’s only because your framework is designed to define every possible choice that way and not even countenance the idea of rational thought and morality.

    You’re adopting the logic that any choice we make is ultimately what we want to do and is thus based on our true urges. But that’s not really examining the reasoning behind our choices, it’s simply using the end result (and the inescapable fact that any choice we make is the one that we chose to make – that the “urge” to take a particular option won out in the end) to justify your definition.

    If you start from that position then of course you’re never going to acknowledge that any decision is made for moral reasons. But it’s faulty logic.

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  • #79544

    I think the idea that we are not in control, that our decisions are made for us before we are even aware of it, is a big part of the materialist view on things. I gues the decisions then are really made by some instinctual being that recides deep inside us, and reason makes up an explanation of why we did that after the fact. However that is still us. It’s not some Svengali steering us, it’s us.

     

    It’s kinda weird because of course there are processes in the body which are controlled by the brain and the nervous system that we have no control over, like all the things that sustain our body and keep us alive, thermoregulation, cardiac function, bowel activity and all those things. However when I make a decision to do something, something that appears in the consciousness, I do think I have some measure of control over that. Maybe it’s not some force of Pure Reason restraining our wild emotions, maybe it’s more like a learning process where we learn to steer our instincts. Maybe our ability to be taught things is also testament to our reason and ability to steer our decisions.

     

    In the end it is just a basic belief for me that we have free will. I am an inner witness to that, I just feel and know I have free will. It is also demeaning to deny someone that free will, it is saying “Instead of a moral agent, I see you as a mindless automaton”. However it is not perfect, we all have instances where our instincts can overwhelm us, and our reason is obviously very limited as well. We are flawed beings I guess, despite having worth and goodness. Which is why we should seek to help each other. And teach each other.

  • #79978

    If the person in our example were to take the impulsive decision to follow their desires and run the red light, then you’d characterise that as an emotional and instinctive decision. But if they take the opposite choice, then you also characterise that as an emotional rather than rational urge. If you adopt a philosophy where every possible choice is going to be able to be defined by you as impulsive and emotional rather than rational or moral, then of course it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. According to your definitions every choice we make is impulsive and emotional. But that’s only because your framework is designed to define every possible choice that way and not even countenance the idea of rational thought and morality. You’re adopting the logic that any choice we make is ultimately what we want to do and is thus based on our true urges. But that’s not really examining the reasoning behind our choices, it’s simply using the end result (and the inescapable fact that any choice we make is the one that we chose to make – that the “urge” to take a particular option won out in the end) to justify your definition. If you start from that position then of course you’re never going to acknowledge that any decision is made for moral reasons. But it’s faulty logic.

    What you’re pointing out is illogical. My exact point is that every choice we make is initially impulsive and rationality is determined after the fact and by the bias imposed by the impulse. What you would need to show is how the action was guided by rational thinking before it was taken, which is impossible because that never happens. Rationales are always after the action is taken.

    I’m not adopting “the logic that any choice we make is ultimately what we want to do and is thus based on our true urges.” That is the conclusion I’m making from examining the actions I’ve taken and that I observe in other people.

    What you are suggesting is that I consider the possibility that reason can guide actions, but that’s like saying that we should consider the possibility that the Earth is flat. Since I’ve never actually seen a spherical or flat earth, there is always the possibility that it is flat, but the observations I can make from my position does support that it more like a sphere.

    It’s the same problem with the idea of free will applied to choices. There can never be an entirely equal choice and you will be able to justify any choice you’ve made after the fact. However, the rational, conscious justifications hardly ever will really be the reasons that the choice was made. We are constantly in the grip of unconscious urges that naturally are invisible to us except after long serious self-examination.

    However, the central point here is that the good we do and encounter in this world is hardly the result of reasonable thinking.

     

  • #79979

    I think the idea that we are not in control, that our decisions are made for us before we are even aware of it, is a big part of the materialist view on things. I gues the decisions then are really made by some instinctual being that recides deep inside us, and reason makes up an explanation of why we did that after the fact. However that is still us. It’s not some Svengali steering us, it’s us.

    Not at all materialist. The materialists believe in reason and rationality and there are always good reasons to do terrible things.

    The spiritual or religious viewpoint is that we are definitely not in control. From AA’s higher power to Flannery O’Connor’s famous quote “…free will does not mean one will, but many wills conflicting in one man. Freedom cannot be conceived simply.”

    Or from Shaw’s idea that since “reasonable men adapt themselves to their circumstances and unreasonable men force their circumstances to conform to their desires, then all progress on this world depends on unreasonable men” to Dostoevsky’s idea that the only way men can prove they are free is to act against their own interests, even the belief in free will drives people’s actions and desires out of their control.

  • #79988

    Maybe materialism is a different current in philosophy but I think if you ask modern secular scientists most would say free will is an antiquated notion. Something like a moral soul that has to keep ignoble passions in check.

     

    In spirituality it’s a mixed picture of course. However even in Christianity many theologians would say human beings have the capacity to make a conscious choice for goodness. In Buddhism and Hinduism I think it’s very diverse, but most directions I think affirm that humans can choose to do good. Traditional Buddhism shares a lot of characteristics I think with Greek stoicism.

     

    The big exception on the side of Buddhism is Pure Land, especially Shin Buddhism, which says we’re irredeemably sinful and the only way to salvation is to surrender yourself to Amida Buddha. Kiyozawa Manshi is an interesting figure, kind of a Buddhist existentialist.

  • #79989

    I’m not adopting “the logic that any choice we make is ultimately what we want to do and is thus based on our true urges.” That is the conclusion I’m making from examining the actions I’ve taken and that I observe in other people. What you are suggesting is that I consider the possibility that reason can guide actions, but that’s like saying that we should consider the possibility that the Earth is flat. Since I’ve never actually seen a spherical or flat earth, there is always the possibility that it is flat, but the observations I can make from my position does support that it more like a sphere.

    Ultimately though your justification for the conclusion that no decision can ever be considered moral or rational is built on a foundation of logic that is based on a pre-existing assumption/observation that no decision made is moral or rational.

    Essentially you’re saying that your position holds true because you think it does.

    I can’t argue with that! :rose:

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  • #80004

    In spirituality it’s a mixed picture of course. However even in Christianity many theologians would say human beings have the capacity to make a conscious choice for goodness. In Buddhism and Hinduism I think it’s very diverse, but most directions I think affirm that humans can choose to do good. Traditional Buddhism shares a lot of characteristics I think with Greek stoicism.

    A core concept of Jewish Kabbalah is that we have no conscious choice over anything we do in the material world. We are driven solely by the selfish pursuit of personal pleasure. At every decision point, we make an unconscious calculation of which option will give us the greatest amount of pleasure for the least amount of effort, and we take that option. We have no control over the decision, it’s what we are programmed to do. The only free will we have in this world is to choose to ask the Creator, “Please let me stop being selfish”. Only when we make that choice can we enter a spiritual state and ultimately join with the Creator. Needless to say, very few human souls are able to do this.

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  • #80006

    In spirituality it’s a mixed picture of course. However even in Christianity many theologians would say human beings have the capacity to make a conscious choice for goodness. In Buddhism and Hinduism I think it’s very diverse, but most directions I think affirm that humans can choose to do good. Traditional Buddhism shares a lot of characteristics I think with Greek stoicism.

    A core concept of Jewish Kabbalah is that we have no conscious choice over anything we do in the material world. We are driven solely by the selfish pursuit of personal pleasure. At every decision point, we make an unconscious calculation of which option will give us the greatest amount of pleasure for the least amount of effort, and we take that option. We have no control over the decision, it’s what we are programmed to do. The only free will we have in this world is to choose to ask the Creator, “Please let me stop being selfish”. Only when we make that choice can we enter a spiritual state and ultimately join with the Creator. Needless to say, very few human souls are able to do this.

    That’s an interesting point of view, thanks.

  • #80063

    If you look at dharmic religions, I think you could say they all have a “selfish” component. Liberation in Buddhism is ultimately an individual thing, you don’t really get liberated by feeding the poor, but by freeing one’s mind (although come to think of it maybe Jainism is different but I don’t know much about Jainism.)

     

    Theravada is more radical in this way than Mahayana (except Zen which is Mahayana but selfish in the extreme). Mahayana adds this “we are all one and interconnected” shtick which makes the difference between what is actually selfish and what is not kind of paradoxical. Mahayana also added the Bodhisattva ideal of a kind of spiritual warrior who wants to liberate all sentient beings.

     

    Christianity in particular seems to stress “be humble and serve others”. Islam is a bit different in that it gives license to rise up and defeat tyrannical rule that oppresses you. Islam you could say might be a fitting religion for the “woke” people in that way, always fighting oppression.

     

    Like in Dave’s example of Kabbalah, if you have to ask God to make you stop being selfish, isn’t that in a way selfishness too? I think the end goal is still personal bliss, unity with God.

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