Mind Expanding Things that Aren't Science

Topic

We seem to have lost the old Thought Provoking (TM) mind expansion thread, so here’s a replacement.
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Astrology:
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https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/06/i-was-an-astrologer-how-it-works-psychics
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Before you scoff, there are some interesting insights in the article that you don’t have to be a believer to appreciate. Here’s a couple of extracts that made me wonder:
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I’d understood organised religion to be something between an embarrassment and an evil. Yet as Aids did its dreadful work – this was the 1990s – I watched nuns offer compassionate care to the dying. Christian volunteers checked on derelict men with vomit down their clothes. I became uncomfortably aware that New Agers do not build hospitals or feed alcoholics – they buy self-actualisation at the cash register.

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I also learned that intelligence and education do not protect against superstition. Many customers were stockbrokers, advertising executives or politicians, dealing with issues whose outcomes couldn’t be controlled. It’s uncertainty that drives people into woo, not stupidity, so I’m not surprised millennials are into astrology. They grew up with Harry Potter and graduated into a precarious economy, making them the ideal customers.

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Some repeat customers claimed I’d made very specific predictions, of a kind I never made. It dawned on me that my readings were a co-creation – I would weave a story and, later, the customer’s memory would add new elements. I got to test this theory after a friend raved about a reading she’d had, full of astonishingly accurate predictions. She had a tape of the session, so I asked her to play it.

The clairvoyant had said none of the things my friend claimed. Not a single one. My friend’s imagination had done all the work.

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And my favourite:
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I can still make the odd forecast, though. Here’s one: the venture capital pouring into astrology apps will create a fortune telling system that works, because humans are predictable. As people follow the advice, the apps’ predictive powers will increase, creating an ever-tighter electronic leash. But they’ll be hugely popular – because if you sprinkle magic on top, you can sell people anything.

Replies

mind expanding Meme

mind expanding substances

Touch the Sky: 7 Psychoactive Substances to Expand Your Mind

I am not saying that people should allow or be tolerant of EVERYTHING but it seems that a lot are “trapped” by superstition, mythology, and close minded ideology that have been debunked by science but the science they have rejected. Never ends.

Do we know gravity will still work tomorrow?

Yes

Rocket wrote:

mind expanding substances

Touch the Sky: 7 Psychoactive Substances to Expand Your Mind

I walked past a lot of toadstools this year while out hunting for mushrooms (normally edible, non-mind-expanding ones) and I have to say I am always tempted. Unfortunately, I’ve never stumbled across the psychocibin ones, because I would definitely be more than tempted by that.
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Where that astrology thing is concerned… well, the big thing here (and which does have a connection to the mushroom issue) is that the mind is a very strange place indeed, and one that still has a huge potential for exploring. I am in my mid-forties now, and I have to say I am thinking more and more about having that midlife crisis and becoming a satanist/magician like Alan Moore did.

Christian wrote:

Unfortunately, I’ve never stumbled across the psychocibin ones, because I would definitely be more than tempted by that.

They like to grow on hillsides in wet conditions. That pretty much describes South Wales so they were abundant every autumn. The even grew on the grass outside the student halls of residence when I was in college, you can imagine they didn’t stay unpicked for long. I knew a guy who used clear an entire field of them into carrier bags and then dried them out, then sold them in London (not many hills in SE England) where he was studying for an enormous profit as they supply was free.

Anonymous wrote:

Do we know gravity will still work tomorrow?

We’ll know the second it doesnt

Dave wrote:

Yes

Well gravity is still here.

I think it’s an interesting question, are the laws of nature constant. It seems because they are pretty much stable for the time we have experimented and measured it we assume they are the same forever. I don’t buy a lot of what he says but Rupert Sheldrake has a funny story about the speed of light. Apparently the speed got “adjusted” downward a few times making it hard to say the speed actually changed or if the calculations were wrong previously.

Anonymous wrote:

I think it’s an interesting question, are the laws of nature constant.

Well, you know. I am not a physicist, but I think the assumption is that if the laws of nature actually had changed to any major degree, the results would be such that they would still be observable. Put simply, if gravity stopped working, we would all die very quickly. The way life has developed on this planet was – I think – only possible because those laws have been constant.
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When it comes to times reaching back to the Big Bang, I suppose it’s simply the easiest hypothesis to assume the laws have stayed constant as well, simply because there is no evidence to the contrary. But at that point is where I know too little about physics and science to really have any basis for the assumptions I’m making.

Christian wrote:

arjandirkse wrote:

I think it’s an interesting question, are the laws of nature constant.

Well, you know. I am not a physicist, but I think the assumption is that if the laws of nature actually had changed to any major degree, the results would be such that they would still be observable. Put simply, if gravity stopped working, we would all die very quickly. The way life has developed on this planet was – I think – only possible because those laws have been constant.

That’s true, it’s a pretty good assumption that gravity must have been pretty much constant at least for most of the history of multicellular life. And given how galaxies form most of the history of the observable universe.

But I think technically using the empirical method you cannot claim to know these laws won’t change at some point. I think at least the current assumption that in the very beginning of the universe, like a zillionth of a second after the Big Bang, gravity worked differently, although there is no consensus about how it was different exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Rupert Sheldrake has a funny story about the speed of light. Apparently the speed got “adjusted” downward a few times making it hard to say the speed actually changed or if the calculations were wrong previously.

What actually happened is that for the first part of the 20th century the measured speed of light went up and down (not just down) all the time, depending on who was measuring when. Because for the first part of the 20th century we didn’t have instruments good enough to measure it reliably.
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After the mid-1960s, the measured values suddenly stop deviating and are all perfect constant. What universe-shaking thing happened to light to cause it to suddenly stop changing speed in the 1960s? Well, nothing happened to light. But humans invented laser interferometry, which is a much more reliable way of measuring speed.
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I’ve never read anything by Sheldrake so I don’t know what he thinks was happening to the speed of light and why it stopped happening coincidentally at the exact same moment humans invented laser interferometry.

Sheldrake is a bit of a woo meister but I liked the story. That said I don’t doubt what you’re saying.

Is there a reason light is always in such a hurry?

IIRC, physicists are now saying that the speed of light is not based on light, but is rather the universal speed limit, and anything massless automatically goes at the universal speed limit, and photons are just the massless particles that most people interact with.

That begs the question why does everything that is massless tend to move at that speed automatically.

I think they have math proving that massless particles automatically move at the universal speed limit; if I’m remembering correctly, the real question is why is that the universal speed limit? But once you get to math it’s beyond me I just know that there’s math that shows it.

There is a sufi khanqah in Leiden, quite near here. I am curious, I’d like to visit sometime and see what it’s like.

Anonymous wrote:

That begs the question why does everything that is massless tend to move at that speed automatically.

Gravitation. However, other forces are involved. Electrons are practically massless and when the move it is practically at the speed of light, but they can be held in place by electromagnetic forces because they have a negative charge.

 

Mind expanding things that aren’t science…

God

The first season of Twin Peaks…

njerry wrote:

The first season of Twin Peaks…

Twin Peaks: The Return

Specifically, Episode 8: “Part 8”.

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used but never filled.

Oh unfathomable source of ten thousand things!

Blunt the sharpness,

Untangle the knot,

Soften the glare,

Merge with dust.

Hidden deep but ever present.

I do not know from whence it comes.

It it is the forefather of the Emperors.

Christian wrote:

Rocket wrote:

mind expanding substances

Touch the Sky: 7 Psychoactive Substances to Expand Your Mind

I walked past a lot of toadstools this year while out hunting for mushrooms (normally edible, non-mind-expanding ones) and I have to say I am always tempted. Unfortunately, I’ve never stumbled across the psychocibin ones, because I would definitely be more than tempted by that.
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Where that astrology thing is concerned… well, the big thing here (and which does have a connection to the mushroom issue) is that the mind is a very strange place indeed, and one that still has a huge potential for exploring. I am in my mid-forties now, and I have to say I am thinking more and more about having that midlife crisis and becoming a satanist/magician like Alan Moore did.

I too am tempted to try psylocibin mushrooms sometime, in a controlled environment. I am not gonna do DMT though, that’s a bit too freaky for me.

 

It can apparently be useful for some who are suffering from depression. Now I am not really depressed, but I could always be a bit happier.

There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

The most mind-expanding thing I’ve experienced is pure science: a sample of Vantablack. It absorbs c. 99,97% of light. It isn’t devoid of colour or blacker than soot; it’s more like a complete absence – the epitome of staring into the void. Stare at it too long and it’s Twin Peaks glass box territory, yet it almost looks like velvet.

I know it’s my eyes trying to make sense of something that shouldn’t exist, but it’s freaky af.

Al-x wrote:

Mind expanding things that aren’t science…

God

God is All, and All includes science, so God is therefore not eligible for this thread.

DavidM wrote:

God is therefore not eligible for this thread.

If God is all, then he is this thread as well 

Well shit. Why did I have to be born in the Kali Yuga.

“I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo. “So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

–J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of The Ring

Gandalf is to Frodo as Krishna is to Arjuna…

I’m reading a book about the pre-socratic philosophers and it says about Pythagoras that he always made a show of going to the temple and engaging in rituals for the gods and appearing pious, and said that even if it didn’t give him any benefit from any gods, it would at least earn him a good reputation among his countrymen. I think this kind of virtue signalling happens a lot in religion, you come up with complicated systems of belief and proclaim yourself the expert because you’re basically the one in the position to decide the rules.

 

Anonymous wrote:

I’m reading a book about the pre-socratic philosophers and it says about Pythagoras that he always made a show of going to the temple and engaging in rituals for the gods and appearing pious, and said that even if it didn’t give him any benefit from any gods, it would at least earn him a good reputation among his countrymen. I think this kind of virtue signalling happens a lot in religion, you come up with complicated systems of belief and proclaim yourself the expert because you’re basically the one in the position to decide the rules.

 

This is especially true for Tibetan Buddhism, as it exists among Tibetans and Western practitioners. It uses multiple highly elaborate systems to get to some point, achieve some kind of state of mind, which leads to some other thing, requiring this exercise or this ritual, which leads to this achievement etc. It is an endless exercise with some kind of enlightenment held out as a carrot. (I think scientology uses a similar system.) It also has a highly stratified almost-caste system, with monks and initiates as a kind of spiritual elite. The gurus and rinpoches, the elite of the elite, have an unassailable status in this kind of society. You have to have permission from them to engage in some ritual and by the way also swear obedience to them. It is hardly a wonder that there are multiple abuse scandals in the community.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyregion/shambhala-sexual-misconduct.html

 

 

Are we in the apocalypse?

Nah, probably not.

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DavidM

Al-x wrote:

Are we in the apocalypse?

Don’t worry, Al; if his press conferences are any indication, Governor Cuomo is ready to kick the apocalypse’s ass!!

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Rocket

Al-x wrote:

Are we in the apocalypse?

Nah, it’s just one in a long line. I’ve been through many. This is not my first apocalypse.

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DavidM

Since everything is in a state of entropy you are always in the Apocalypse.

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Todd

Al-x wrote:

Are we in the apocalypse?

I’d say we might be getting there.

Speaking of non-science… there are belief system that some take to extremes.

 

For example, some of the beachgoers felt that because they are young and have a

resilient immune system they can party in large crowds at this time like many did

Spring Break. Another example are conspiracy theories as to the origin of covid-19,

that it’s a Democratic hoax, a sensational virus coming up every election year, an excuse

for martial law.

Others who are religious believe in faith healing of the virus, no need to

worry about it because the “Lord is my shepherd”, and still others feel there is no need to

worry about global warming because of what God promised Noah in the Bible.

There have also been a lot of “mindsets” and views, like the flat earth, Obama is the

antichrist, one drop of blood rule etc. and they have the audacity to “challenge” those

who actually studied the academic subjects for decades.

(A favorite of mine is the one where if you had milk that was irradiated from a fallout, a significant percentage

feel that if you boil the milk, it would then be OK to drink…)

It is as Neil Tyson has said that the education system has failed many, and as Asimov stated years ago that some

are taking things to mean that my ignorant statements are just as valid as your learned ones.

With regards to those in the news and covid-19 , (not mentioning names as this is not the thread), it is becoming clear as certain

ones in office are exposing themselves as not being that bright. They are just average man on the street people who managed to have a populist message that caught on.

Well, I have said enough for now… carry on.

 

From my religious point of view, we’re not going to synagogue, but various rabbis  called for a national day of private prayer last week, and an Israeli rabbi is calling for an international one tommorow. So we’re listening to the doctors, but are using religious means within that system to help

Isaiah 38 is seen as a guide. The eponymous prophet tells the sick King Hezekiah that he was going to die, no matter what. But the King prayers for healing,despite the dire prophecy of an established prophet. From here Jews derive the principle that even when the sword is at your neck, pray. Hezekiah is answered, and Isaiah tells him to use a medicine that would only work on less serious cases- the take away is that there needed to be some level of using current medical knowledge.

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DavidM

Al-x wrote:

Speaking of non-science… there are belief system that some take to extremes.

It’s likely less to do with the belief system and simply the inertia of personal perception. Often, if a person examines their own actions or the actions of others, the behavior precedes the reason for the behavior.

Let’s say you’re walking around a park and you see some kids playing a pick-up basketball game. It’s not the belief that the coronavirus doesn’t threaten them that motivates them to play basketball during an epidemic. It’s that they enjoy playing basketball, so they believe that the virus doesn’t threaten them. If you confront them, politely, about it, they will suddenly have that belief even if they didn’t consider it. If you press them more that they could threaten people who would seriously suffer from it, they will come up with other beliefs supporting their present behavior.

It’s this innate human trait that often allows people to be so easily controlled, but, at the same time, often the leaders are victims of the same unconscious drives. A person who absolutely should not be a leader suddenly finds that he has all these devoted followers. So he suddenly believes he is  great leader. It wasn’t that he was a great leader and then people followed him, but the reverse. So now he’s stuck in a role he’s completely unsuited for but has no control over it.

It’s comical and tragic how stuck in this puppet show we are where we’re just pulling each others strings.

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njerry wrote:

Don’t worry, Al; if his press conferences are any indication, Governor Cuomo is ready to kick the apocalypse’s ass!!

His daily press conferences are my mom’s favorite part of the day. She loves the guy.

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njerry

Yeah, Cuomo is a rock star during this pandemic.

I did not mean to go on and on in my last post. It is just that
the ignorance gets to me and it blows my mind that some
of these people are actually in charge.

Blows my mind… expands my mind… whatever

Actually, I’m using Kabbalistic intentions during prayer that are supposed to help during a plague. It’s actually interesting that the description of the”malignant spiritual forces” that the texts say cause plague is similar to scientific descriptions of viruses, to the point that I have no trouble believing that it’s describing the spiritual forces behind viruses.

I am in doubt on wether to use psychedelics. I’ve thought about using mushrooms, and I know a way to obtain ayahuasca. However reading about it I am not quite sure how it would benefit me. Someone like Rogan states he has had these immense experiences on DMT however listening to him talking about it I fail to see why it is so great. I’ve listened to Terence McKenna though I am not sure the profound insights he talks about can’t be obtained by more mundane means, like meditating, or doing a retreat. And I’ve heard some people talk about bad trips which sound terrifying. I am planning to talk about this with my mental health counselor, although I am pretty sure she would advise against it.

I am not sure seeing “weird shit” and having random hallucinations is all that “mind expanding”.

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The DMT experience is supposedly very similar in users which is an interesting concept, but at the same time sounds unlikely. I’d need to see clinical trials on that.

What I find more interesting are mental exercises that are not chemical to reformat a person’s perceptions. Sorta like brainwashing in a good sense. Maybe mind cleansing is a better term. However, experimenting with hypnagogic states and lucid dreaming or any of the multitude of psychotherapeutic techniques that have grown up around Freudian psychoanalysis and Jungian analytical psychology is almost as dangerous as taking drugs.

It’s often why I’m skeptical of many self-help books and programs out there. What are the qualifications of these people, really? A lot of it – like this book I read recently called MINDSET – is based on studies that were never replicated or later found to be flawed. It reminded me of this one story about a team of researchers who wondered if there was any relationship between a person’s visual sense and their political convictions. So, they did a study of about a dozen people. They would show them a series of squares that were different shades of gray. It turned out that those who held strong political points of view had more difficulty determining differences in shades of gray.

So these researchers were ready to publish and they could already see how popular this study would be in the media. But because they were about to publish a paper that basically said extremist literally see the world in black and white, they decided to do the study again just to bolster their conclusions.

Instead, the second study showed absolutely no relationship. The first study was just a fluke. The researchers then slapped themselves for doing it again. They killed their golden goose.

So, just remember that when you read a book by someone like Malcolm Gladwell or when some guru cites some research that was performed thirty years ago by some small college in upstate New York on ten grad students. Most research studies turn out to be flawed or disproven within a few years of publication but the pop science and psychology books sit in the library or on Amazon or on some Internet archive to be cited forever with no corrections or follow up.

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Anonymous wrote:

I am in doubt on wether to use psychedelics. I’ve thought about using mushrooms, and I know a way to obtain ayahuasca. However reading about it I am not quite sure how it would benefit me. Someone like Rogan states he has had these immense experiences on DMT however listening to him talking about it I fail to see why it is so great. I’ve listened to Terence McKenna though I am not sure the profound insights he talks about can’t be obtained by more mundane means, like meditating, or doing a retreat. And I’ve heard some people talk about bad trips which sound terrifying. I am planning to talk about this with my mental health counselor, although I am pretty sure she would advise against it.

I am not sure seeing “weird shit” and having random hallucinations is all that “mind expanding”.

Psychiatry is just beginning to explore the use of psychedelics as a therapeutic tool. It’s still in its nascent stages but anecdotal evidence has been positive. From what I’ve read, one dose is all that is needed. There is extensive talk therapy before, during, and after.

I would strongly suggest NOT trying this in a self-medication fashion. Seek out a legitimate professional who can properly prepare and guide you through the experience and continue to assist you in processing it afterward. There is also a possibility that after evaluation, they may determine you are NOT a good candidate for the therapy. Be sure to thoroughly vet doctors who practice this therapy.

You want this to be a beneficial experience, not something that does serious damage to you.

Be smart and be safe.

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DavidM

Anonymous wrote:

What I find more interesting are mental exercises that are not chemical to reformat a person’s perceptions. Sorta like brainwashing in a good sense.

Koan practice can be good for that. Also some Tibetan visualization meditations. (There are however indications that Buddhist techniques did at some point involve hallucinogens.)

There are some milder psychedelics which are interesting like blue lotus. I also get a buzz from certain teas, like Li Shan tea or Bai Hao Yinzheng white tea. “Tea high” is a real thing, that has been attributed to an amino acid named l-theanine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Pharmacodynamics

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Todd

Todd wrote:

I would strongly suggest NOT trying this in a self-medication fashion.

That is certainly good advice. I think it is common to always have someone watching you when doing something like mushrooms or DMT. DMT especially is powerful stuff that can cause strong reactions which can be dangerous. But mushrooms can lead people to do crazy things as well.

In the end that’s why I am a little skeptical about some of the claims. I’m not sure if it is really mind-expanding or if it is just another intoxicant. When people come back claiming to have talked to alien beings, I could reply I did that too in my dream last night. Or when I was in the psychiatric hospital.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

There are some milder psychedelics which are interesting like blue lotus. I also get a buzz from certain teas, like Li Shan tea or Bai Hao Yinzheng white tea. “Tea high” is a real thing, that has been attributed to an amino acid named l-theanine.

I do take several amino acid supplements but nothing seems as impactful as an actual drug – or even as much as nicotine or caffeine that have absolutely demonstrable effects. L-Theanine, Tyrosine, Taurine, Serine, etc. like most nutritional supplements – you only notice the way you feel when you stop taking them more than when you are taking them. Certainly, mood and energy are less when I forget to keep up with them.

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Anonymous wrote:

In the end that’s why I am a little skeptical about some of the claims. I’m not sure if it is really mind-expanding or if it is just another intoxicant. When people come back claiming to have talked to alien beings, I could reply I did that too in my dream last night. Or when I was in the psychiatric hospital.

In the articles I’ve read, the psychedelics are basically a “reset” switch for the brain that allows more traditional talk therapies to be more productive. As I said before in the articles I’ve seen, it often only takes one dose in a controlled environment with a professional to make a positive difference. The biggest factor for success is that traditional talk therapy continues after the psychedelic-use session.

The dosage is tailored to the person so it may not be the intense trip you would receive from what you would buy on the street. This is why if you choose to explore this, you work with a licensed and vetted professional.

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garjones

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There are some milder psychedelics which are interesting like blue lotus. I also get a buzz from certain teas, like Li Shan tea or Bai Hao Yinzheng white tea. “Tea high” is a real thing, that has been attributed to an amino acid named l-theanine.

I do take several amino acid supplements but nothing seems as impactful as an actual drug – or even as much as nicotine or caffeine that have absolutely demonstrable effects. L-Theanine, Tyrosine, Taurine, Serine, etc. like most nutritional supplements – you only notice the way you feel when you stop taking them more than when you are taking them. Certainly, mood and energy are less when I forget to keep up with them.

The wiki article also says l-theanine doesn’t have much of an effect by itself, but I definitely notice an effect when drinking that tea. Maybe it’s another compound in the tea or a combination of different things in the tea. It is like a “brain boost” – I feel somehow both very relaxed and alert.

Maybe it’s the combination of the caffeine and the l-theanin.

I have no personal experience with psychedelics, but I like this description from English beat poet Pete Brown, who did use them in the ’60s:

I always thought that people with no imagination took acid and then imagined that they had an imagination, which was nice for them briefly. And the people who did have imagination, but took it anyway, it really sent them right over the fucking top to somewhere horrible. The results were not good.

I like to think I have a reasonable imagination 

 

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Todd

[garjones]

Anonymous wrote:

Someone like Rogan states he has had these immense experiences on DMT however listening to him talking about it I fail to see why it is so great.

I know where he’s coming from and I think one of the common myths of psychedelics is that hallucinations are pretty intense or that big a part of the experience (maybe on DMT which I haven’t tried but not on LSD and mushrooms). In truth all me and my friends ever really experienced was swirling shapes in patterns, like in a particularly garish wallpaper or carpet design, maybe a few shadows moving about. You don’t see pink elephants or anything and are completely aware or what’s normal or not.

The significant thing with them is they essentially turn your mind somewhat inside out to how it normally operates. It seems very easy and clear to ponder the deep existential questions we often try and avoid but try something simple like making a cup of tea and you’re fucked remembering what the hell you are trying to do, it’ll take half an hour and at the end you’ll probably have forgotten to put the tea bag in.

To many people that allows them to develop a perspective to essentially not sweat the small stuff, become more philosophical about things and possible more chilled. The problem with a recommendation though is not everyone has that reaction, a minority get the ‘bad trip’ experience where instead they feel frightened.

As Todd says there’s not really enough study to say why people have varying reactions (although in my experience most have the Rogan one), maybe an existing condition or personality type defines it, we don’t know.

 

 

• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by garjones.

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Todd, DavidM

I’ve been curious about it. Though maybe with my history of mental illness it’s better to avoid it.

I am not sure. It is something I’ve been wanting to discuss with my mental health counselor, especially because in some cases, it seems to have helped people who were suffering with problems of depression. Johnny’s point is well taken though, it is very anecdotal and one or two studies from a long time ago that said there may be benefits could just be wrong.

The funny thing about DMt is these stories of meeting otherworldly beings, there are lots of DMT folks who thinks that’s real somehow, these beings must really exist and they were interacting with them. Man, you were taking maybe the strongest hallucinogen known to man. It could have been, you know, a hallucination. if there’s one thing being crazy has taught me it’s that sometimes the things you believe to be true may be bullshit.

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Todd

DMT just from what I’ve read is a bit different to other hallucinogens as it takes you ‘under’. The descriptions are of people closing their eyes, and ‘waking’ after the trip. I think the first I read was in a Hellblazer comic and John passed out into an aboriginal dreamworld but despite that being fiction I looked at real life accounts and they appear very similar.

So essentially these are more intense dream experiences in a way. They aren’t seeing the aliens come into the kitchen and have a chat as they try and make that impossible cup of tea, they haven’t moved and are ‘seeing’ them with their eyes closed.

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Mind expanding things….

More dimensions beyond the three we know of…

Al-x wrote:

More dimensions beyond the three we know of…

You only know three?!?!

You live such a deprived life!

A monkey typing away randomly for all eternity will eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. Therefore the chance of any random monkey randomly writing the works of Shakespeare at any given time is larger than zero. Therefore there is a possibility that Shakespeare was a monkey.

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Christian, Todd

There are no dimensions beyond three…

change my mind.

Al-x wrote:

There are no dimensions beyond three…

change my mind.

You’ll change it yourself, given time.

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DavidM, Christian, Todd

I’ve heard Trump plays 4D chess so there must be at least 4 dimensions.

Dave wrote:

You’ll change it yourself, given time.

I see what you did there.

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Todd

Al-x wrote:

There are no dimensions beyond three…

Surely you must have heard of the 5th Dimension?

Very popular R&B group that started in the ’60s, and whose members included Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis, Jr.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What I find more interesting are mental exercises that are not chemical to reformat a person’s perceptions. Sorta like brainwashing in a good sense.

Koan practice can be good for that. Also some Tibetan visualization meditations. (There are however indications that Buddhist techniques did at some point involve hallucinogens.)

There are some milder psychedelics which are interesting like blue lotus. I also get a buzz from certain teas, like Li Shan tea or Bai Hao Yinzheng white tea. “Tea high” is a real thing, that has been attributed to an amino acid named l-theanine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Pharmacodynamics

Yeah, I’ve been using Kabbalistic meditation. Drugs aren’t used, though before the health effects were known, some advocated tobbaco as a meditation aide. In fact, I once read in a book by a rabbi whose synagogue I pray at here (of course, not these days; closed due to pandemic) that when the health effects began to be known, his religious school of thought said that smoking is harmless with the right meditation, but it could only be done by advanced practitioners, and he and his late father never tried because his grandfather was martyred in Auschwitz before he could give the secret.

njerry wrote:

Dave wrote:

You’ll change it yourself, given time.

I see what you did there.

I’ve seen Interstellar.

Anonymous wrote:

I’ve seen Interstellar.

I’ve seen Interstellar. What a coincidence!

Did Nolan invent March? It seems to be happening for an awfully long time.

Height
Length
Width

… and maybe time

‘Nuff said

Al-x wrote:

Height
Length
Width

… and maybe time

‘Nuff said

M-theory

Although a complete formulation of M-theory is not known, the theory should describe two- and five-dimensional objects called branes and should be approximated by eleven-dimensional supergravity at low energies.

Is coronavirus God’s will? Jewish, Christian and Muslim leaders debate tough questions amid pandemic

JRCarter wrote:

Is coronavirus God’s will? Jewish, Christian and Muslim leaders debate tough questions amid pandemic

No, because God doesn’t exist.

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Todd, Dave

At the very least two out of those three ideas are wrong by default.

 

 

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Todd, Dave, lorcan_nagle

I think it is well possible that god(s) do exist, just not the Abrahamic version. If one’s highest principles or “ultimate reality” can be called god, it certainly exists. But a lot of people wouldn’t call that god.

God is a word that is nearly impossible to discuss without descending into nonsense. It doesn’t mean anything that anyone can agree on which applies to so many other elements of human experience from love to knowledge to music. They only mean something in the context of their usage so to discuss “does God exist?” is like taking a checker off a checkerboard and asking “what does this mean?” It only means something in the context of a game of checkers.

In one game, called religion “God” created the entire world in seven days. In another game, called “science” the entire universe developed over billions of years with no indication of any intelligent or creative guidance. Each are true only in their established context.

What’s ironic is that you can see a strange reaction when fundamentalists are confronted with inconsistencies in the game. I can’t recall his name but there is a Biblical Scholar who seems to have made it his mission to point out all the inconsistencies in the New Testament. For example, in one gospel the Last Supper is a passover meal and in another it takes place after the passover. The story where Jesus saves an adulteress (not necessarily a prostitute) from stoning with the line “let the one without sin cast the first stone” was not actually in the original gospel. Instead, it was a marginal story added by one scribe to demonstrate a point in the gospel. Later copyists then inserted the story into the gospel.

This scholar began as an evangelical fundamentalist who believed the New Testament was literally the entirely true word of God, so when faced with obvious inconsistencies, his faith was challenged to the point that he no longer believes. That he actually seems dedicating to assaulting it. However, there are numerous scholars who don’t find these threatening to their faith at all. To them, the factual nature of the bible is not the point of the “the game.”

 

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Todd

Dear God

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garjones

Anonymous wrote:

his faith was challenged to the point that he no longer believes. That he actually seems dedicating to assaulting it. However, there are numerous scholars who don’t find these threatening to their faith at all. To them, the factual nature of the bible is not the point of the “the game.”

yeah the fundies often turn into the biggest critics. They are “fundamentalist” in their criticism.

 

I used to hang out on a Buddhist forum for a bit, and they had their fundies too. People who took stuff from Buddhist scripture very literally, and couldn’t quite accept it when some people deviated from certain doctrines or mixed things up a bit. Often they used to be Christian fundies before they lost their faith and “found Buddhism”.

Thing is, in the US it is the Christian fundies that make it hard for the rest.
I said before that they believe that they don’t have to worry about global warming
because of God’s promise to Noah in the Bible. Also, they are against teaching
evolution in school, give a hard time in the abortion issue, and with the coronavirus
they feel that since “the Lord is my Shepherd” they can congregate en masse like recently.
They give a hard time on the main social issues and try to keep the society in general from
being progressive.

Just saying.

Al-x wrote:

Height
Length
Width

… and maybe time

‘Nuff said

Time itself has multiple dimensions.

Think about this: a day had 24 hours, but those hours look like this:

The linear day is equal to twice the circumference of the circle.

But a circle also has area, which is equal to (circumference squared) / (4 pi)

With a circumference of 24 hours, a day also has an area of approx. 45.8 square hours.

I leave it to the reader to calculate how many cubic hours there are in a day.

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Todd

Can you visualise a circle with many centres and no circumference?

Did someone say pie?

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Todd

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

I think it is well possible that god(s) do exist, just not the Abrahamic version.

With this post I didn’t mean to belittle people’s beliefs in Abrahamic Gods. I think there is a lot of good in those traditions, I just can’t bring myself to believe in an all-powerful, personal God as described in the Bible (including the Jewish version) and the Quran.

 

I do admire the figure of Jesus. There is a lot of wisdom in the Gospels.

Anonymous wrote:

I do admire the figure of Jesus.

He spends a lot of time at the gym.

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Christian, Todd

Anonymous wrote:

God is a word that is nearly impossible to discuss without descending into nonsense. It doesn’t mean anything that anyone can agree on which applies to so many other elements of human experience from love to knowledge to music. They only mean something in the context of their usage so to discuss “does God exist?” is like taking a checker off a checkerboard and asking “what does this mean?” It only means something in the context of a game of checkers.

In one game, called religion “God” created the entire world in seven days. In another game, called “science” the entire universe developed over billions of years with no indication of any intelligent or creative guidance. Each are true only in their established context.

What’s ironic is that you can see a strange reaction when fundamentalists are confronted with inconsistencies in the game. I can’t recall his name but there is a Biblical Scholar who seems to have made it his mission to point out all the inconsistencies in the New Testament. For example, in one gospel the Last Supper is a passover meal and in another it takes place after the passover. The story where Jesus saves an adulteress (not necessarily a prostitute) from stoning with the line “let the one without sin cast the first stone” was not actually in the original gospel. Instead, it was a marginal story added by one scribe to demonstrate a point in the gospel. Later copyists then inserted the story into the gospel.

This scholar began as an evangelical fundamentalist who believed the New Testament was literally the entirely true word of God, so when faced with obvious inconsistencies, his faith was challenged to the point that he no longer believes. That he actually seems dedicating to assaulting it. However, there are numerous scholars who don’t find these threatening to their faith at all. To them, the factual nature of the bible is not the point of the “the game.”

 

It’s actually the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark and Luke) that say it was a seder, but John says it was the night before; this also has implications for the Crucifixion and Resurrection, as the Synoptics say the Crucifixion was on the first day of Passover, and the Resurrection on the third day, while John says the eve of and the second day; this has implications about Jesus’ tomb which effects the Resurrection accounts, which would be more on the mind of a Christian Fundamentalist, 1 Cor 15:14-17  (emphasis mine):

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;….

In that regard it is interesting that the resurrection is never actually narrated in the New Testament. There is no scene in the bible where Christ actually rises from the dead, no witness account of it. He’s dead and then later he’s not in the tomb and, in some account, an angel is there to tell the mourners (just Mary or several people depending which gospel) that he’s alive and to go tell the apostles to go either to Galilee or Jerusalem to meet him… which they don’t do. It’s very weird.

Now, in gospels that were not included, the resurrection is narrated which is where we get the stories of Jesus going to preach to the dead or to Hell in the three days in the tomb. It’s all very strange how some stories are taken “as gospel” and others are just hanging around in the background. Of course, the original Christians never needed a New Testament or even thought one should be assembled.

Of course, very few people who actually believe that the New Testament really is the word of God have actually read much of it.

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DavidM

Well the Bible’s a tough read. Some books of the Bible are beautiful, others were quite terrible to get through.

 

My favorite religious writing is probably the Zhuangzi which is part of the “official canon” of Taoism.

Are there beings of energy and do they exist in the
so called other dimensions?

Al-x wrote:

Are there beings of energy and do they exist in the
so called other dimensions?

Yes.

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Todd

Al-x wrote:

Are there beings of energy and do they exist in the
so called other dimensions?

Yes. Their names are Claude and Denise, and they run a dog grooming studio on the outskirts of Dublin.

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Todd, Dave

If one doesn’t believe in G-d, how could any group of people advanced out of the stone age? To work with metals, one needs metal tongs, but to make metal tongs one needs metal tongs- infinite regression. The original tongs must have been provided to humanity! So the fact that I am using a cellphone right now and not banging rocks together proves G-d for me

Well, I’m convinced.

Wait a minute – how did god make the metal tongs?

(Presumably that’s irrefutable proof that there’s something else even greater than god in the universe.)

njerry wrote:

Al-x wrote:

Are there beings of energy and do they exist in the
so called other dimensions?

Yes. Their names are Claude and Denise, and they run a dog grooming studio on the outskirts of Dublin.

Is Dublin part of the outer dimensions?

Humans cannot make tongs without tongs. More precisely, the transition from not having metallurgy to having it presents an infinite regression for physical beings, because one needs metallurgy to work with metallurgy; without outside intervention, no human society could have advanced from not having metallurgy to having it- yet we know it happened.

So you’re saying there are ways of making metal tongs without having metal tongs? Well I never.

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garjones

People, I present to you your new god.

So Hephaestus is the true God?

I’m not saying God doesn’t exist, but I do not see how mankind’s evolutionary development is undeniable proof of His existence. Birds learned how to build nests; beavers learned how to build dams; why would it be inconceivable for Man to learn metallurgy without some divine influence?

According to Mason (1895, The Origins of Invention) metallurgy was invented by a woman called Necessity.

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DavidM

njerry wrote:

I’m not saying God doesn’t exist, but I do not see how mankind’s evolutionary development is undeniable proof of His existence. Birds learned how to build nests; beavers learned how to build dams; why would it be inconceivable for Man to learn metallurgy without some divine influence?

Correct, the initial premise is logically inconsistent. There is no evidence that you need to already know all about metal working to invent metallurgy. There is no evidence that you need tongs to simply work with metal – only to work with metal in a certain way. Metallurgy after all is just a name we gave to an activity that was already developed. It’s like saying that you already need to understand a language to learn it.

Language is another good example here. When was the first word spoken and how could it be if the language didn’t already exist? The answer is similar to the Ancient Astronaut theory – “we don’t know… therefore aliens.” Neither proves the existence of anything or the absence of a God.

I mean, even if there was a God, it would make more sense that he would create a being who could figure things out rather than need God to figure it all out for him. If God created this extremely complex being with intelligence, sentience and memory, but he has to give him tongs or he’ll be stuck in the Stone Age… that just makes him sound like an incompetent deity. It’s a desperate superficial argument that minimizes both humanity and divinity.

Besides, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it wasn’t God that taught mankind, it was the fallen angels.

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DavidM, lorcan_nagle