HERE THERE BE DRAGONS (and spoilers)!!!
House of the Dragon SPOILER discussion
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I’ve largely been engaged by the Allicent/Rhaenrya rivalry, but this week Allicent felt a lot more cartoony, like the worst indulgences of TV Cersei’s villainy. Because everything else is still disjointed and the throughline is the decay of their friendship, it really relies on both of them seeming reasonable in their concerns and we didn’t get that this week.
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I’ve largely been engaged by the Allicent/Rhaenrya rivalry, but this week Allicent felt a lot more cartoony, like the worst indulgences of TV Cersei’s villainy. Because everything else is still disjointed and the throughline is the decay of their friendship, it really relies on both of them seeming reasonable in their concerns and we didn’t get that this week.
The kids actually were more engaging and interesting in this episode, but nearly everything felt clumsy and poorly staged. I rarely notice direction in a television show (usually it isn’t a factor), but the scenes were hard to make out – like the editors didn’t have the right shots. Like in the burial at sea (or at shore – that was a very undramatic kind of funeral, to be honest). By the way, would there even have been a body? We’ve seen dragon fire absolutely incinerate bodies on this show and in GOT. Was that an empty casket? Was the casket already carved or while Daemon was hauling it back for the funeral, did they have somebody working on it? The logistics of this funeral are confusing in the first place, but during the funeral, I couldn’t really get a sense of the space – where people were or really what the progression of the ceremony was supposed to be.
The fight between the princes was interesting, but also kinda confusing and unclear, but the final scene with the two queens (or queen and heir to the throne) just seemed like the actors didn’t know how they should stand or where to look.
Allicent is more over the top – though Olivia Cooke kinda has a tendency to do that – but I can understand her increasing puritanical madness as she deals with Rhaenyra’s obvious infidelity and illegitimate children against the fact that she is kinda an accessory to murder and her legitimate children are terrible and Rhaenyra’s are obviously better people than her own.
Emma D’Arcy hasn’t got a lot to really dig into, but the show seems obviously pushing her side over Allicent’s. She’s actually a good comedienne but this show is not just dark in the literal sense, but there is no real humor either. We need a Tyrion to show up.
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It hit as I was watching the latest episode that this series would have been 1-3 plotlines in GoT. I also keep coming back to the fact that I don’t care about any of the characters. They are pretty much all terrible people. There is no offset too, like you would have had in GoT, where you would see different characters on different quests. With HotD, it’s nothing but assholes fighting over a chair.
I was also thrown off that everyone got to the funeral so quickly. Is everyone an hour away by ship? This whole show feels rushed with time jumps and the like. It feels like we haven’t had a chance to really spend time with the characters and get to know them. This feels more plot-driven but unfortunately, the plot is not that engaging.
Ultimately, I’m not sure HBO picked the right series. I think Bloodmoon, set during the Age of Heroes, would have been more interesting and had more potential. I wouldn’t have minded a series with Arya traveling to new continents and new peoples.
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Yeah, the main deal is that Allicent would likely be a bad queen and her kids suck but Rhaenyra just married her uncle and he’s a homicidal maniac. On top of that, who gives a crap which of them is on the throne at the end? I don’t think the average commoner would notice a difference.
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On top of that, who gives a crap which of them is on the throne at the end? I don’t think the average commoner would notice a difference.
During the episode where Rhaenyra and Daemon sneak out into town, we see the common people quite aware of the issues around Rhaenyra being named as successor, with street performers joking about it etc.
So there seems to be some awareness there of who is on the throne.
I think the point is more, would it make a difference in their lives?
In Game of Thrones, we had a lot of reasons to care who sits on the Iron Throne. The Lannister kid is portrayed as the worst kind of sadistic evil, and that was probably a good idea because generally speaking, why should we care who sits on that throne? Westeros more or less runs itself. But with each of the parties vying for the throne on the opposing side, it is made clear why they shouldn’t succeed – Joffrey because he’s a little fucking psycho, Cersei because she’d be a horrible tyrant (well, arguably… there are points at which you’d almost be fine with her winning, which is why it’s important that she doesn’t give a shit about the White Walkers), and in the end Danaerys when she’s shown to be a mass murderer.
Of course the more important thing GoT does really well is locking the Starks and the Lannisters into this battle (with Bran’s injury and Ned becoming Hand being two inciting incidents that make sure they can’t avoid this fight) and make us care about who wins, because our sympathies are firmly with the Starks. But they do make sure to show why these people should not get to the throne. In House of the Dragon, you don’t get the impression it’d actually matter much.
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Yeah, the main deal is that Allicent would likely be a bad queen and her kids suck but Rhaenyra just married her uncle and he’s a homicidal maniac.
I know that incest is a thing with Targaryens but I really find it offputting as a story point and “character development”. We already saw incestuaous releationships in GoT. I think it was suppoed to be “empowering” for Rhaenyra but for me, I lost all sympathy and compassion for the character.
No matter what great deeds Rhaenyra does in the future, I’m going to think, “Yeah, but you had sex with your uncle who basically groomed you.”
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I know that incest is a thing with Targaryens but I really find it offputting as a story point and “character development”. We already saw incestuaous releationships in GoT. I think it was suppoed to be “empowering” for Rhaenyra but for me, I lost all sympathy and compassion for the character.
It is weird in the show. I don’t get the portrayal. Did I miss something? I was pretty sure that they did NOT actually have sex before. I mean, they could have had sex sometime in the time jumps, but I thought the whole point was that Daemon did not have sex with her when she wanted to – then she had sex with Sir Crisco and Allicent thought she had sex with Daemon and found out she had sex with the other guy.
Honestly, I just didn’t get the impression they had any actual chemistry with each other. Much less that they were soulmates.
Daomon is honestly just a chaotic character and I can’t tell if that is intentional, but at the same time, the majority of very important life-changing experiences that the characters go through is off-screen over years and years. So character development is a little hard to judge.
On that note – how many years have passed here – the King looks like he’s aged 30 years, but it can’t be more than 15 or so, right?
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On that note – how many years have passed here – the King looks like he’s aged 30 years, but it can’t be more than 15 or so, right?
He’s not been well.
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On that note – how many years have passed here – the King looks like he’s aged 30 years, but it can’t be more than 15 or so, right?
He’s not been well.
As I’ve said before, the quick pacing and time jumps of the show makes me think of the latter seasons of GoT. I really feel like I’ve missed important charcter moments that would help me connect with the characters. As it currently stands, they all come across as assholes and if they all died, I really wouldn’t care.
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My main – but mild – criticism of it is that it still focuses on the adults probably more than it should. At this point, really, I don’t think we will get much surprising from any of the main characters except for the children – who are suddenly pretty much grown up by medieval standards.
Allicent’s kids are a little too over the top in their obvious badness – – a particular gripe I had with the adaptation of Game of Thrones as well – – but the adults are practically ossified in their enmity. This show really makes a good argument for killing your rivals before they are rivals.
However, in general, the show seems to indicate a falling action for active conflict while I think, even with all the time jumping, it really has taken to long to just get to the obvious outright warfare between the what — greens and blacks, is it?
I still think we could’ve used a few more focus characters from the commoner class who could provide context and commentary on how the venal ambitions of the upper class lead to endless pain, suffering and just plain exasperation of the people that depend on them for government.
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I thought the latest episode was excellent, the greatest of the show so far and up there with the best GoT episodes for me.
I’m on the opposite side of this. Can’t say that I cared at all about what was going on. And I didn’t think it was well built up to really, as there was a new question of succession that nobody had apparently thought about before, and everything else was just the usual soap opera stuff of people sneaking around trying to get the upper hand by doing really obvious stuff. Visaerys popping up was a really cool moment, yeah, and Daemon chopping somebody’s head off was at least something that happened, but other than that it was just random kids with or without eyepatches being mean to each other, as far as I am concerned.
I know that incest is a thing with Targaryens but I really find it offputting as a story point and “character development”. We already saw incestuaous releationships in GoT. I think it was suppoed to be “empowering” for Rhaenyra but for me, I lost all sympathy and compassion for the character.
It’s pretty weird, and the show probably didn’t do enough to make the audience understand just how normal this is to the Targaryans. It’s a pretty big societal taboo in our society after all.
I still think we could’ve used a few more focus characters from the commoner class who could provide context and commentary on how the venal ambitions of the upper class lead to endless pain, suffering and just plain exasperation of the people that depend on them for government.
That would’ve been a very good thing. Having more characters outside of those families generally would’ve been good.
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And I didn’t think it was well built up to really, as there was a new question of succession that nobody had apparently thought about before
I don’t think it’s so much that they hadn’t thought about it, but the circumstances hadn’t forced the decision to be made up until that juncture – at which point all the various claims and counter-claims came to the surface again.
and everything else was just the usual soap opera stuff of people sneaking around trying to get the upper hand by doing really obvious stuff. Visaerys popping up was a really cool moment, yeah, and Daemon chopping somebody’s head off was at least something that happened, but other than that it was just random kids with or without eyepatches being mean to each other, as far as I am concerned.
I don’t agree with this point – I thought the dinner with the whole family brought together and the (attempted) reconciliation was a wonderful scene, and one that went very against the grain of the usual plotting and meanness, as you had a lot of characters actively trying to overcome those differences and mend old wounds for the sake of the father. It was very Shakespearean and I thought Considine sold the whole thing brilliantly.
Having said that, if you haven’t invested in the show and its characters and storylines then I can see why it wouldn’t land the same way. I’ve enjoyed it more than most here, so the payoffs felt very meaningful and earned to me.
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I don’t agree with this point – I thought the dinner with the whole family brought together and the (attempted) reconciliation was a wonderful scene, and one that went very against the grain of the usual plotting and meanness, as you had a lot of characters actively trying to overcome those differences and mend old wounds for the sake of the father. It was very Shakespearean and I thought Considine sold the whole thing brilliantly.
Considine did very well, and yes, it was very Shakespearean in a way. But you hit the exact point – for that to actually work, I’d have to be in some way invested in the characters, as you say, and even the main characters just aren’t believable or interesting enough to me, and the kids are entirely two-dimensional at this point.
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Paddy Considine deserves an Emmy and BAFTA for his performance. It was fantastic. But then, everyone’s performances are usually top notch.
But seriously, this show is an absolute train wreck. The time jumps have negatively impacted the show. It honestly feels like we’ve only gotten the highlights. The children, who appear will be important moving on, we barely know. It seems that every time we see them, they’re a different age (with different actors). How am I supposed to connect with them when I barely know them? They are all paper thin at this point. The adults don’t feel that fleshed out either. On GoT, we spent time with the characters and in some cases, watched them grow up and evolve. Even with the “bad guys”, we grew to understand them.
I’ll finish the season but depending on how it ends, I’m not sure I’ll tune in for Season 2.
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I have found the multiple recastings unnecessarily confusing. Just pick an actor and age them up and down as required, we can suspend our disbelief. Far easier to do that than have to spend time each episode working out who everyone is all over again.
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https://www.instagram.com/reel/CjqUESVrmDS/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
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Post on a Discord I frequent:
I don’t watch Game of Thrones either, but the idea that centuries of inbreeding would produce Emilia Clarke is way more unrealistic than any of the dragons on that show.
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That would’ve been a very good thing. Having more characters outside of those families generally would’ve been good.
It does feel like they are missing the obvious option here. They had the maid who was attacked by the prince, but… who is she? How do the servants live in this world? Where do they sleep? Are there some that side with one side of the family and others that don’t? Are some of them spies for one faction? We’ve only seen them in relation to the main characters, but the majority of the people that live and work in the palaces and castles are invisible.
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Yeah, exactly. And that is the show’s greatest weakness: The characters and the world are two-dimensional because you don’t get the feeling that they exist outside of the plot.
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Beginning to think that the smallfolk of King’s Landing were happy when the Dragons died off.
So, this was probably my favourite of the back half of the show so far because I felt like there’s been enough of an anchor on the characters, possibly because most of them have been around for a few episodes and there’s been more of a continuity to what’s going on, and most importantly Aemond, Aegon and Alicent felt more like nuanced, well-rounded characters than cartoon monsters. I just wish the show was more consistently like this, and hopefully it will be next week and through into series 2.
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The episode was very done. Great performances all around.
Unfortunately, I still don’t like any of the characters. They are all assholes. I don’t care what happens to them. There really is no character to root for.
I’ll watch the season finale and unless it does something fantastic to grab me, I think I’m done with the show.
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I still don’t like any of the characters. They are all assholes.
Characters can be assholes, but you have to like them in order to be able to watch them week after week. The characters in SEINFELD were all selfish assholes, but they were entertaining.
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I still don’t like any of the characters. They are all assholes.
Characters can be assholes, but you have to like them in order to be able to watch them week after week. The characters in SEINFELD were all selfish assholes, but they were entertaining.
The characters in It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia are terrible people but hilarious and you know their schemes will fail. Half the fun is watching their plans go sideways.
With HotD, I just don’t care about them. I don’t care about their plans and goals. The fact that the tipping point is one character misinterpreting another one is what I’d expect in a sitcom. Here, it just felt silly.
For me, the time jumps and recastings really hurt the show. I am also not finding the story of the civil war that compelling. It’s not grabbing me.
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I feel the same as Todd (as I’ve said before), but at least this episode was fun to watch because shit was happening for once – and yes, it helped that this episode could build directly on the ones before in a way that most of this season just couldn’t do.
And I have to say I did like that moment when Rhaenys fucked everything up with her big dragon. I was mentally cheering her on to go on and do it, just kill all of those bitches and be done with the whole thing. I really would have liked that as an ending to this season – Rhaenys killing pretty much all of the big characters!
It was a bit weird that we didn’t get to see Rhaenyra do anything at all. I suppose that’s because next week’s focus will be on her response to everything going on.
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Okay I fell behind on this show and caught up.
My main feeling is it doesn’t feel like Game of Thrones. It actually feels like a 1980s Sunday night BBC drama like the Borgias or The 6 Wives of Henry the 8th or Elizabeth R. It is far more in that vein of focused politics of the court and family betrayal – that was always a part of GoT but just one element. It’s very good at that, lavish production and quality cast but it’s a very different kind of show. A bit like She-Hulk where I mentioned I probably wouldn’t have watched it without the branding, that’s probably true here.
Like in that example though I am quite enjoying it. I think the last two episodes put the chess pieces in place for something a bit more ambitious going forward. Episode 8 gave us clearer motivations for the younger ones with Aegon, Aemon and Luke to degree getting some clearer character traits rather than just kids milling around and changing actors every episode. Episode 9 played on the revenge of Cersei musical theme which is a good technique for upping tension and we got a big dragon scene, war is inevitably coming here which changes the focus.
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I really enjoyed the finale, and overall like this show.
It’s not perfect, and sometimes I don’t know who to root for, but it has won me over and I very much expect season two to be awesome.Side note: would love to have a War Table like that!
Medieval Ikea, perhaps?So how does the dragon rider have control?
Like telepathy? I think it’s now established that the dragon’s temper can make them do what they want without their riders instruction/permission (unless I misread that scene. He did look horrified at his dragon’s actions).Maybe when a dragon gets to a certain age, or size (absolutely massive!) they act like teenagers when agitated.
There can be no doubt. This war is on!
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I don’t think it was explained per se, but it appears from previous episodes that dragons & riders form a sort of empathic bond… I’m assuming they “felt” the agression in their riders and decided to duke it out…. which was a very poor decision on the small dragon’s part… xD
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I think I’m done with the show.
The finale was decent enough, but ultimately, I don’t care about any of the characters. When the kid died (which was telegraphed way too strongly), all I felt was “meh”. We barely spent any real time with him to develop some sort of bond. That problem persists with the offspring characters. The rest of them are very endearing or sympathetic.
The producers have said there will be no more time jumps but unfortunately, the damage has been done. That really stifled development and bonding time with the characters.
Like The Rings of Power, House of the Dragon is not bad by any means. Both are decent enough shows but for me, I won’t be continuing with either.
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I liked it but it was not much of a season finale, much more like a bunch of setup for next season. Which is what GoT used to do with its season finale episodes too, but this didn’t really have any big Wow moment to make you sit up and take notice or get you excited for next time. Just more of the same, which isn’t a bad thing but also didn’t feel very climactic. There could easily be several more episodes in the season after this one.
Also, it feels like Eyepatch kid is in a different show to everyone else, he’s like an anime character brought to life. The whole dragon fight bit felt unusually staged for this show too, more like a kids adventure movie like a Harry Potter or something.
Anyway, I’ll definitely look forward to more of the show, but this season felt like it was maybe just short of the knockout moment that would have made it great rather than just very good.
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The last episode was alright. I actually liked the dragon chase scene a lot, and I did feel for the poor kid, even if it was bloody obvious he’d get killed. One of the very weak moments this week was nobody bringing up that, hey, this might actually be a fucking dangerous thing, sending your kids away alone on the eve of war?
But at the end of the episode, with Rhaenyra’s “It’s on” face, I thought to myself, hey, if this was the first episode of a show, I’d be interested in where it goes.
But it’s not really enough after a season of lukewarm stuff. I don’t think I’ll be back.2 users thanked author for this post.
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You’ll all be back =P
One of the very weak moments this week was nobody bringing up that, hey, this might actually be a fucking dangerous thing, sending your kids away alone on the eve of war?
I thought about it, but then… he should’ve been fine… Like Daemon pointed out, they have a lot of dragons, so no one would be stupid enough to murder the princess/queen’s son and risk getting obliterated by a bunch of dragons, which in this world I guess is akin to having nukes…
But then pirate teen went full stupid and there we go…
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Well, Aemond once said Lucerys would die screaming in flames like his father, so I guess getting eaten by a dragon is close enough.
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one writer “wanted it to be even later than that, with Viserys dying” — which in the series didn’t happen until the end of Episode 8 — and account for the major events that came before with “flashbacks or dialogue,” Martin says
Well that person clearly had the right idea. Shame nobody listened to him/her.
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Not a real trailer.
But anyway, watching this I’m reminded how little I care about any of these people. I’ve mostly forgotten who they are, and what I remember is being annoyed with most of them.
I don’t think I’ll be watching season 2 of this. It’s a bit hard to resist, what with the GoT connection, but honestly it’s just a waste of time.
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Not a real trailer.
But anyway, watching this I’m reminded how little I care about any of these people. I’ve mostly forgotten who they are, and what I remember is being annoyed with most of them.
I don’t think I’ll be watching season 2 of this. It’s a bit hard to resist, what with the GoT connection, but honestly it’s just a waste of time.
My thoughts exactly.
I thought it had some great performances and scenes, but the story itself was just not compelling to me at all. I didn’t care about any of the characters.
I’m not going to watch it.
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I caught up on all this. Two more to go.
A slight tip would be to watch one of those 10 minute YouTube videos recap of season 1 and the online House of Dragons Wiki.I remembered a few of the cities and castle estates because they were in GoT.
The intrigue is still there, but I would say that because it is based on a completed work,
the next few seasons and ending shouldn’t suffer like the last few seasons of GoT because GRRM didn’t finish the thing.Looking forward to episode 7 this weekend.
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I caught up on all this. Two more to go. A slight tip would be to watch one of those 10 minute YouTube videos recap of season 1 and the online House of Dragons Wiki.
Yeah, I had to do this before watching this season as I’d forgotten so much of the detail of season 1.
I’m up to date with season 2 now and really enjoying it. The story is engaging and the actors are mostly great. Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.
Compared to GoT I still think it lacks a couple of things – the scope still feels smaller and less sweeping than GoT, which felt like it had a much bigger variety of locations. And I don’t think there’s as much wit or humour – there’s no character like Tyrion who is reliably entertaining and really lights up the screen.
But it’s still a good show and has grown into itself this season.
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I thought the s.2 finale was fine in that GoT way of most finales feeling like they’re half tying up loose ends and half providing a trailer for next season. I do think the scenes between the two Queens are a highlight though and their closing interaction here was good.
Oddly while I’m sure they wanted us to get excited about the explicit flashforwards to the GoT stuff in the future, that part felt the most throwaway and inessential to me, I think the drama of the main conflict of the series is enough to support it at this point without having to keep linking it to GoT.
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Debates about the pacing of storylines….
In these media feeds, a lot of viewers wanted more action. GoT had a few episodes of epic battles and apparently viewers wanted to see that here. But they will have to wait 2 years for season 3.
This link here talks about how Warner Brothers cut the season from 10 to 8. GRRM said that to really do justice to the material about 4 seasons (10 each) would suffice. But…
And:
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