One of the most active comics threads in old-MW! We can continue our discussion of HoXPoX here.
New issue out today!
Hickman’s X-Men – Dawn of X
- This topic has 996 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 3 months ago by
.
Author
-
-
-
I’ve been thinking about the current X-Men and how I’m frustrated with it – it feels like its going nowhere – I like talky comics. I dislike fighty-fighty comics. I like interesting stories or interesting characters doing involving things – the Hickman run doesn’t always feel like that.
I’ve recently started reading the Clairmont issues from the beginning and wonder if he’s aiming to hit those notes and that’s stopping some of the good storytelling, by trying to ape something that was quite special at the time. I’m noticing characters appear years before I recalled them (Michael Rossi, Amanda Sefton), and seeing story arcs ideas that get introduced well before they come to the foreground and overlap with each over – Its also more apparent how there are subtle cross overs with the characters in Iron Fist, Ms Marvel etc – making me wish that the omnibuses had a broader focus.
I noticed that like Starman, Archie Goodwin had had an early influence – and that might have lead to the wonderful interlaced storytelling that spreads through both. Is Hickman attempting this threading without someone to demand the storytelling, pace and tone that needs to go with it? -
Is Hickman attempting this threading without someone to demand the storytelling, pace and tone that needs to go with it?
Full disclosure: I haven’t read of the current X-books
Editorial then and now are very different beasts (HA!) Part of it could be the current corporate structure and the fiscal demands of performance benchmarks per quarter and year. The market itself is very different today than it was then.
Claremont also had one title where he was given the freedom to take his time and develop characters and stories. Hickman and his team have half a dozen books or so that have to be coordinated. It may have worked better if he only had one title to focus on. You look at his run on Fantastic Four which worked pretty well.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
It is a bit of a change from Hickman because listening to him he basically only read two comics growing up. X-Men and Legion of Superheroes. When he was assigned FF he actually read the series from start to finish because he’d never read it before and came in cold. This is his first ‘fanboy’ assignment.
He’s definitely not aping Claremont’s ideas but I do see the same happiness in letting subplots run in and out and take their own sweet time. It’s why I have a lot more patience I think than most with the approach. I know a lot expected the same velocity of plot progression as in House of X but I grew up on the Claremont style, introduce Nimrod, not follow up on it for 18 months while the other aspects move on.
I have every faith, unless there’s some personal bust up with Marvel, it’ll all get covered in the end and that’s fine by me.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
I skipped X of Swords but reading current X-Men I have literally no idea what’s going on. Krakoa’s wife-island Akkro has shown up from nowhere after a gazillion years and they have decided that with help o legendary marriage counsellor Cypher a divorce is in their best interests?
Xavier is traumatized by the mere thought of it and nabs a few magical plant genitals to gift the inhabitants of Rokaka who are very old mutants made out of metal, a bunch of top-shelf passive-aggressive bastards who threaten charles with swords? Oh, and Cyclops has discovered democracy.
Am I reading this right?
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
I know a lot expected the same velocity of plot progression as in House of X but I grew up on the Claremont style, introduce Nimrod, not follow up on it for 18 months while the other aspects move on.
Yeah, I remember those days, too.
Unfortunately, we’re living in a different time. Back in the 80s, it was pretty much a given that Claremont would be the writer for the long haul, the book wouldn’t be canceled or rebooted, and editorial would be mostly hands-off and let the writer do what he wanted to do.
These days we don’t have that luxury. Corporate and editorial are more capricious, and it feels like books could be canceled or rebooted at any time, and creators are at the mercy of market forces. Long-term planning isn’t something that I would count on these days. Even creator-owned books at Image tend to disappear without warning after ten or so issues.
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
Maybe. I don’t expect Hickman will be on the book for 16 years like Claremont but 3 of the last published top 10 comics are X-Books under his command, with X-Men selling the best. That’s better than they have been for a decade or more.
If he has a plan for a few years like he had with Avengers of FF I expect he’ll see it play out. I don’t actually see that the business has changed that much, CC got 16 years because the sales kept rising.
3 users thanked author for this post.
-
I really enjoyed X of Swords read as a block. SWORD was really fun. I’m still very much in and I’m still buying Excalibur even though I think the writing lets down what could be more interesting written by someone else.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
Participate in the annual election of YOUR protectors of Krakoa… the X-MEN!
The choices:
ARMOR
BANSHEE
BOOM-BOOM
CANNONBALL
FORGE
MARROW
POLARIS
STRONG GUY
SUNSPOT
TEMPO
-
Mark has been catching up on the earliest Hickman X-stuff via Marvel Unlimited, and talking about it with him has prompted me to reread HoX and PoX, and damn they’re still some great comics. Making me want to work out my timeline of Moira’s lives and when she realised things and what events in PoX lead to what different plans.
-
-
-
-
I find it amusing that almost half the people on the list were in the temporary X-Men team back when the Reavers attacked Muir Island around Uncanny 260
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
Come to think of it, how come Marrow isn’t in either X-Force or Hellions?
Because Marrow is the Jar-Jar Binks of the X-Men?
Or maybe I’m thinking of Maggot?
That period of X-Men is sort of like a half-remembered nightmare for me.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
-
Polaris? Well, at least it’s not Marrow.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
I’d only be against that because she’s getting a lot of good work/characterization in X-Factor. Now Banshee? He’s been on the bench a LONG time.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
<p style=”margin-top: 0px; caret-color: #222222; color: #222222; font-family: Cabin, sans-serif; font-size: 15.008000373840332px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>And introducing X-Corp!</p>
<aside class=”onebox allowlistedgeneric” style=”border: 5px solid var(–primary-low); margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 12px 25px 12px 12px; font-size: 15.008000373840332px; background: var(–secondary); caret-color: #222222; color: #222222; font-family: Cabin, sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”><header class=”source” style=”margin-bottom: 8px;”>
Marvel Entertainment</header><article class=”onebox-body” style=”border-top-style: none; padding: 15px 0px 8px; clear: both;”>
<h3 style=”font-family: var(–heading-font-family); margin: 0px 0px 10px; line-height: 1.2; font-size: 1.1487em;”>Mutantkind Soars to the Top in the New ‘X-Corp’ Series</h3>
<p style=”margin-bottom: 4px;”>The new X-Men title by Tini Howard and Alberto Foche makes its long-awaited debut in May!</p></article></aside>
<p style=”caret-color: #222222; color: #222222; font-family: Cabin, sans-serif; font-size: 15.008000373840332px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>
So that leaves us with
X-Men
Cable
Marauders
X-Force
X-Factor
Excalibur
New Mutants
Wolverine
Hellions
SHIELD
X-Corp
Way of X
CHILDREN of the Atom</p>
<p style=”caret-color: #222222; color: #222222; font-family: Cabin, sans-serif; font-size: 15.008000373840332px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>Gone
Fallen Angels</p> -
See this is why I don’t visit much anymore. I just break stuff and run away!!
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
-
The new X-Men title by Tini Howard and Alberto Foche
I parsed down your post to the important info. It’s by Howard so I won’t be reading it
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
Thanks to Marvel Unlimited I did a full read through of the X-Books to the end of X of Swords. So I’m making some random comments on them.
X-Men, Marauders and New Mutants are books that have a clear purpose and identity. The rest have a bit of a ‘samey’ feel, a group of pretty randomly selected mutants going off on missions. I could probably make an exception for Excalibur, it has its own feel but I have personal issues with most of the storytelling choices as the Moore, Delano, Davis Captain Britain is an all time favourite and I think they have replaced what they did there with a load of cliched British mythology stuff that they deliberately subverted back in the 80s. Where Otherworld was this super sleek hi-tech world now we have all the Arthurian/medieval stuff back for no reason.
X of Swords to start with is an extremely well constructed crossover. It can’t be easy to do a 22 chapter story like that across many writers and artists and have it feel like a very cohesive story. There was one sub plot with the Hellions where I thought they’d dropped the ball and forgotten it and then you find out that’s deliberately left late in an amusing twist. It does though cover a lot of Hickman tropes, if you have read his Infinity and East of West a lot of elements are very familiar.
6 users thanked author for this post.
-
-
-
I’ve only got the House of X/Powers of X HC (loved it). Was looking forward to an HC every X-mas or so, but they’ve made it hard to figure out what to do (and yes, they hurried the first HC so of course a bunch of people like me are just waiting).
So as I wait, no one has really been singing it’s praises. Read between the lines it’s taken a while to get going.
But the X of Swords X-over could be the point where it takes off, and some expect it to. And it’s gotten decent to good reviews which is hard for something of that magnitude, so that’s a good sign.
(I’ve got it pre-ordered. April 20th)Just, I dunno. How to keep going? I guess I’ll have to skim through here and see how things are.
And then is everything geared to a multiple title crossover?
If so, Ben’s idea of wait for the Omnibus maybe the best plan, and Dan is correct about promotion when the MCU movies arrive.1 user thanked author for this post.
-
Marauders Is great, I love it. art is good, coherent narrative, maybe a slow at times? Blame Bendis.
Also perhaps the one most tied to characters from eras I love. Pryde, Shaw, Frost.X-men is interesting, maybe fascinating, but there’s no consistent narrative or characters, more an examination of the new world through stories.
excalibur I would have said meh, but the first post X of Swords issue, I actually enjoyed. Maybe it now has a low bar. Too many characters, many with little connection to their classic roots. But it was not actually bad. If you don’t care about Otherworld or aren’t delighted to see Meggan all grown up, it might not be that interesting.
New mutants. 50/50 – needs direction. They have the right art style, now they need dynamic stories to match.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
This week’s X-Men was really good, I have to say.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
I figure I’m 50-50 on getting a copy of the, preordered with SpeedyHen, X of Swords OHC at all, while becoming more ambivalent as to whether to get it at all at this point.
I can’t recall a story that so rapidly became a sprawling, untrackable monster, with a terrible traded structure, in the way the X-books have gone.
Hopefully, they do Omnibuses that collect it properly but I might not care by the time they do. The last year has really started to get me out of buying these editions.
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
I can’t recall a story that so rapidly became a sprawling, untrackable monster, with a terrible traded structure, in the way the X-books have gone. Hopefully, they do Omnibuses that collect it properly but I might not care by the time they do. The last year has really started to get me out of buying these editions.
I feel similarly. For me, Hickman’s X-Men was killed by Marvel pulling their typical trick of taking a successful thing (HoXPoX) and milking it via multiple spin-offs and tie-ins and crossovers without being very clear on where the essential core story (following on from HoXPoX) could be found.
I couldn’t be bothered with the hassle of having to order not only the X-Men series, but then all the Giant-Size issues too, then some of the New Mutants book, then the Empyre stuff, then the X of Swords crossover… it all just became a pain to keep track of, and Hickman’s typical lack of hurriedness to actually do anything with the story points he set up in HoXPoX only made me feel less patient with it all.
In the end I ditched the whole thing. If it had just been a straight Hickman series to follow I’d probably still be reading it today.
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
It’s not wrong that they took a tightly delivered story into a sprawling line. It’s just I didn’t really expect anything else really.
Reading stuff via Marvel Unlimited really changes your view of following books, when you aren’t individually paying for everything it’s more about a time investment and overall for the books it’s been worthwhile for me, they are all pretty decent. I pay $6 a month whether I read one X-Men comic or a 22 issue crossover.
I do think Hickman will inevitably close off all his ideas in this run because he always has before but I fully appreciate how off-putting the model is. In the 90s when the X-Men expanded hugely and had these crossovers where you had to read every book I dropped them in the US editions but bought the Panini reprints where they collected 3 or 4 issues, in the correct order for barely more than one US one.
4 users thanked author for this post.
-
It does look perfectly constructed for being read on Marvel Unlimited.
The reason I find the collecting of it confusing in terms of trades is they immediately went with HoX-PoX as a $60 OHC. X of Swords was announced, that’d probably get OHC, so they’ll probably do OHC or Omnibus for the bridging material? Nope. They do 3 select OHCs only instead.
It wouldn’t be as bad if Marvel’s trades weren’t an offence to any worthy quality standards. But even if they were better, how does a series like X-Factor work with its’ third or fourth issue being part of X of Swords?
Marvel have been pretty good at packaging their material into complete chunks, so this seems weirdly haphazard.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
Here Ben, this should clear everything up.
-
-
-
Here Ben, this should clear everything up.
What a mess: they started so well with HoX PoX but I wouldn’t even read Tini Howard, Vita Alaya or Leah Williams on MU which I already pay for, let alone spend £20 a month trying to keep up.
Si Spurrier is on a great roll though, my hope is his Way of X book can be read independently. His plans for Nightcrawler sound really interesting and knowing him he will be intelligent enough to try and have this stand alone away from the rest of the muck.
-
And this is where I drop off too, or at least from buying the books monthly.
I have been reading the core X-Men on faith more than enjoyment – Hickman’s always suffered from the mid-season dip before pulling it out of the bag at the end. But, this is getting too big and sprawling for me to just read his book now.
I’ll likely continue with Wolverine because I like Percy’s take on the character, and it’s Adam Kubert ffs! But the rest I’ll read on Marvel Unlimited at some point in the future. If I can be arsed to.
-
Si Spurrier is on a great roll though, my hope is his Way of X book can be read independently. His plans for Nightcrawler sound really interesting and knowing him he will be intelligent enough to try and have this stand alone away from the rest of the muck.
I missed that one of them was a Spurrier book. I’ll keep an eye out for the reviews on that.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
the hellfire gala symbol looks like Star Trek Federation ship.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
I’m planning to buy the OHC of the really good bits, and event omnibuses though that would mean no Hickman new mutants.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
I found this video interesting – its good to see people look critically at the Hickman run and what its doing.
It reminds me that the Hickman run so far does read like he’s read more x-men than I have and is mashing it up into one story – not unlike what Grant Morrison did.
There’s a list in my head that I need to unpack in the ways that in some ways Hickman is telling the oposite kinds of stories and combining motifs to seek fertile new ground.
lets do one. how many times have islands featured in X-men
- Magneto’s island M (that ended up being where Magick got made, right?).
- Moira’s Muir Isle
- Krakoa
- Genosha
- Madripoor
Any more? Are those ideas being re-used?
What other x-men themes and motifs are being re-visited? New body and transformation? Death and rebirth? Time travel and changing the past? Space operas?
There’s something in my brain about the outback and the savage land, perhaps looping back to limbo too, but I don’t think Hickman has gone there.
-
This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
Here Ben, this should clear everything up.
I can’t believe they’re still using that horrible font… u_u
-
The best offense. #XMenVote pic.twitter.com/oJRnh7Y82n
— Marvel Entertainment (@Marvel) April 13, 2021
Fun party. #XMenVote pic.twitter.com/f6UW7CpaM8
— Marvel Entertainment (@Marvel) April 12, 2021
Better luck next time. #XMenVote pic.twitter.com/KgC99i5M0f
— Marvel Entertainment (@Marvel) April 11, 2021
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
In hardcover news.
It looks like Hickman’s X-Men OHC has become an omnibus: https://www.hachettebookgroup.biz/titles/none/x-men-by-jonathan-hickman-omnibus/9781302929985/And there is a hellfire gala red carpet collection (that looks like a Big OHC / Small Omni): https://www.hachettebookgroup.biz/titles/none/x-men-hellfire-gala-red-carpet-edition/9781302931568/
IDK what that means for plans to collect the Hickman X-men run. Buy all the OHC and Omnis and hope there is a plan?
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
What a total balls-up.
First, no way does that Hickman Omnibus stay at $75 RRP, expect it go up to $100-125.
Second, it’s combining pre and post X of Swords material.
The Hellfire Gala OHC? Who knows how that’ll fit in?
Inclined to abandon getting any collections of this now, it’s one fuck-up after another.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
it’s one fuck-up after another.
I disagree, I think it’s very on-brand for the X-Men to be virtually impossible to follow unless you’re a die-hard fan.
-
-
-
-
-
-
Yeah. Excalibur is quite central to the X of Swords storyline because it involves Otherworld and a few bits and pieces but you should get the drift and if you don’t – I’d just go and google it. The comics themselves aren’t very good.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
I like Synch and Laura on the team, especially after their story in the Vault. I remember when they brought Sync back, there was a data page talking about his troubles fitting in after being dead so long, and now he’s lived lifetimes in the Vault. Couple that with the dynamic of spending those lifetimes with Laura, which she doesn’t remember, it’ll make for some interesting dynamics between the younger members.
-
Talking of ‘coming back’ I have been curious where the cutoff point was that Sinister had harvested all his DNA and Xavier his Cerebro downloads.
By my guess the Morlock Healer is the death furthest back (UXM #291). There’s no John Proudfoot Thunderbird back, no Van Roehm of the Hellfire Club – so they must be too far back.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
It’s frustrating how inconsistent Hickman’s X-Men is. There are some issues where you just think his heart’s not really in this. And, then there are issues that remind you that this guy wrote the rather wonderful House of/ Powers of duology.
#18 and #19 are the latest examples of the latter, telling the story of what happened to the team sent into the Vault. This was superb. A great sci-fi heavy two parter that really leans into how evolution is at the heart of the mutant story. Excellent stuff.
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
-
Huh, I had the opposite reaction, it felt like a re-hash of what he did with Moira and Logan in HOX/POX.
That’s a fair criticism, I agree.
Feel obliged to point out at this point that the Children of the Vault came from the criminally underrated and largely forgotten X-Men run by Mike Carey, Chris Bachalo and Humberto Ramos. This was some good shit, as the young ‘un’s would say.
Highly recommended for those who liked Morrison’s New X-Men or those currently enjoying Hickman’s work.
-
Feel obliged to point out at this point that the Children of the Vault came from the criminally underrated and largely forgotten X-Men run by Mike Carey, Chris Bachalo and Humberto Ramos. This was some good shit
I second that recommendation. Carey’s run was very good.
-
-
-
Dealer Alert
Hickman X-Omnibus now available for pre-order at £54.19 at Amazon:
Be a good placeholder until any better offer arrives.
Edit – meanwhile, X-Men: Hellfire Gala is taking the mick, coming in at £54.19 too! For 12 issues! But due September 2021.
-
OK, I need for Jean Grey to get out of that old Marvel Girl costume. She should be past that.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
It’s funny to me that X Men Red gets referenced more than most recent X men books. It is also one of the first books I read by Tom Taylor.
-
-
-
-
To be honest I’m not 100% sure. Amazon don’t offer an easy version of appending a URL with the tag, they seem to want you to create an ad link.
We have the general link there all the time which is working well but it pays out a very small percentage, if you direct link an ad to a specific product it’s much higher.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
On that note, I got to reading about someones guesses on the original plans for the mutant massacre and fall of the mutants. I’d read some things similar, but this had a lot more detail, how ever I’m not sure how truthy it was. Though it does explain the kinda mess after issue 200 and also some of the loose plot elements from the 270s.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
-
Neither of those have been followed up on (at least in the Hickman written stuff).
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
Ah ok. I got the impression Moira was being left for later but thought the pharma stuff might be more near-term.
Dan is right that the pharma stuff is pretty central to Duggan’s Marauders book.
-
-
-
they could have just said “a shocking murder leads to the Trial of Magneto”, without mentioning the Saga at all
but I guess they can’t help themselves.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
-
It is great art but I believe the artist is fan of Game of Thrones. Check out Polaris’ right hand. As far as continuing reading X-men comics. Eliminate the ones you don’t like and see what happens coming out of Hellfire Gala. It is supposed to shake things up.
-
I do find reading via Marvel Unlimited hugely changes my approach.
In truth most of the X-Men comics are good. Some of them are very good, some are a bit average, all worth reading really.
Every Monday on the app, that I have paid for at $69 a year, 2-4 of them appear so I read them all.
You see a wider tapestry of what various writers are doing with what an ideas machine like Hickman can inspire. If I was reading via trade I would almost certainly give up and via issues would have spent an enormous amount it’s hard to justify.
-
-
I believe the artist is fan of Game of Thrones. Check out Polaris’ right hand.
I’ve never seen or read GoT so that doesn’t mean anything to me, I’m afraid. Is that a bad thing?
This explains everything.
-
-
Sunfire. And, yes. Synch.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
Thanks. Pretty cool lineup!
1 user thanked author for this post.
