Hickman’s X-Men – Dawn of X

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One of the most active comics threads in old-MW! We can continue our discussion of HoXPoX here.

New issue out today!

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Powers of X #5 – The 1-2 punch of House and Powers of X continue to be the books I most look forward to reading week in and week out. this issue is no exception. This issue largely covers a lot of the set up for the two big revelations last issue along with a furtherance of the X^3 timeline. It’s interesting how the issue continues to discuss a consciousness (Mind) in a body (Husk) that is not their own and then goes on to discuss that Professor X has moved his own consciousness with a previous copy twice. Are there things he has purposefully forgotten? We are still yet to see Moira in the House of X timeline but we do get a mention of “Moira’s No Place” and something about Forge powering Cerebro with a “Krakoan No-Place vent”. I’m also beginning to wonder if the X^3 timeline is from Moira’s 6th life where she talked mutants into siding with the machines against humans and that’s why they seem to be working together in that future. The highlight of the issue was probably Namor’s cameo. Looking forward to the last two issues of this series and where it leaves things for the start of the new era of X-Men.

[Eduardo]

So, some things I have been wondering, thinking about:
<br>
– All the villains have swore to submit to Krakoa’s laws, whatever they may be, so that makes me wonder about what will happen if a mutant commits a crime. Will there be a Krakoan prison? Or exile to the main world? Will a painful execution be on the table, just to bring the guilty back hoping they have learned the lesson (that takes me back to Destiny teaching Moira about poor decisions) or, the worse sentence (?), to live and die and remain dead, to be erased from the Cerebro database and not be resurrected by the Five?
<br>
– Could Sabretooth be the first mutant on trial? Will the Council be both executive and judicial and legistlative all in one?

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Eduardo.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Eduardo.

Let’s try this again:

Some musings about Krakoa. The villains have swore to obey Krakoa’s laws, whatever they may be, so that makes me wonder what will happen if someone breakes them:
– Will there be a prison? Or exile to the outside world?
– Will a painful execution be on the table, just to bring the condemned ones back to life, hoping the experience will teach them a lesson (echoein Destiny teaching Moira about poor choices in one of her lives…)
– Or will a normal death be the ultimate punishment? To be sentenced to a definitive death, with no resurrection, to be excluded or deleted from the Cerebro/Sinister database?
– Could Sabretooth be the first mutant on trial, as he jeopardized his assignment without need?
– Will the Krakoan council be executive, legislative and judicial branches all in one?

I cant believe that Hickman finally made Gambit the saviour of all mutantdom!

What an issue!

[Jake]

Eduardo wrote:

Let’s try this again:

Some musings about Krakoa. The villains have swore to obey Krakoa’s laws, whatever they may be, so that makes me wonder what will happen if someone breakes them:
– Will there be a prison? Or exile to the outside world?
– Will a painful execution be on the table, just to bring the condemned ones back to life, hoping the experience will teach them a lesson (echoein Destiny teaching Moira about poor choices in one of her lives…)
– Or will a normal death be the ultimate punishment? To be sentenced to a definitive death, with no resurrection, to be excluded or deleted from the Cerebro/Sinister database?
– Could Sabretooth be the first mutant on trial, as he jeopardized his assignment without need?
– Will the Krakoan council be executive, legislative and judicial branches all in one?

It’s like you knew all the right questions to ask, except anything regarding Gambit …

I really liked the beer scene at the end. Great ways to acknowledge some of the heavier things the primary players have been through. But I think Sinister should have brought Gambit a beer, too.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Jake.

There’s obviously a bit of suspension of disbelief that the heroes and villains would just bury the hatchet.

Nonemoreso then with Apocalypse – he’s like violated the person and controlled the bodies of like 10 x-men at least.

Also I read commentary that suggested the scene with the beers between Wolverine, Jean, Cyclops and Emma is a hint at polyamory which goes to Sinister Secret 5.

Did X-Men’s Lamest Mutant Secretly Create Marvel’s Biggest Future Threat?

What’s Apocalypse’s status now though? Last I read he was reverted to a kid and was quite innocent. Obviously now he’s back to full size but is he actually the same person that did those things?

garjones wrote:

What’s Apocalypse’s status now though?

“It’s Complicated”

[Eduardo]

Everyone seen the Foreshadowing variants for HoX 6 & PoX 6?

SPOILERS

• House of X 6:https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/f/60/5d8a29bfdcc33/clean.jpg
• Powers of X 6: Ohhh, and think before clicking because this is quite a BIG HINT of things to come it seems.
  https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/4/20/5d924e768732c/clean.jpg

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Eduardo.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Eduardo.

So my take on Apocalypse and ”young apocalypse” Evan is based on the Cable /Deadpool Blood of Apocalypse storyline where it is apocalypse’s blood that retains the memory /identity of En Sabah Nur but still needs a host body to maintain form.
Even is a cloned body of apocalypse but hasn’t reached maturity to be possessed by apocalypse.

Apocalypse must of joined another unknown host body and donned his celestial armour .

Also back in the 12 storyline Apocalypse needed the gathered mutants to help him bond with Nate Grey (but ultimately Cyclops) as he was an Omega Mutant and required a more elaborate melding process.

Just my take on it.

Also did anyone read the Finale of Age of X? What happened to Nate Grey?

He more or less stayed behind.

Age of X-Man was actually pretty different. It wasn’t great but there were lots of interesting ideas in it. There wasn’t much aaction.

If you want to talk Age of X-Man, please take it back to the old forum.

I actually liked it, but Tim’s assessment is spot on.

NYCC X-Men Panel coverage:
– https://www.newsarama.com/47284-nycc-2019-x-men-dawn-of-x-panel.htm
– https://www.cbr.com/nycc-marvels-dawn-of-x-takes-the-x-men-forward/

So far there is some interesting preview art for Powers #6, and they showed what’s coming in January 2020 to X-Men’s… I am dying at the cover and the concept.

From an interview about X Force with Ben Percy:

It’s all been very civil. The thing that’s so great about this experience is we are not only writing these individual series, we are writing one large story together. So the coordination that’s occurring, not just through these summits, but through everyday correspondence on Slack. If I have a question about Marauders, say, just yesterday, I was talking to Gerry, I was like, ‘hey, can I do this with the Marauders crew?’ and then we have a side negotiation. It’s all copacetic.

Damn I’m going to end up ordering the titles I thought could avoid.

[Eduardo]

On the same page as that, Hickman just said (via video) that Duggan’s Marauders is the book in Dawn of X that ties the most into the future of the X-Men.

And: “If you like your comics to come from a close-knit kind of universe, this is the most connected the X-books have been in a long time.”.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Eduardo.

[Eduardo]

New Dawn of X book coming in February: Wolverine by Benjamin Percy, Adam Kubert & Victor Bogdonavic.

https://www.newsarama.com/47273-wolverine-returns-with-dawn-of-x-solo-ongoing.html

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Eduardo.

Here’s my review from the New Comics thread. I’m really curious to see what the wrap up of the mini series and presumably send off to the regular series looks like.

House of X #6 – Hickman has built this book in a very interesting way with a lot of what happens in this issue being what kicked things off at the beginning of the series. I’ve really enjoyed it all especially the way the council for ruling on laws for a mutant nation were set up in this issue. It still leaves me a bit uneasy as Xavier’s actions here are usually what we have been taught are the actions of a villain in this universe. I’m curious what will happen in the final issue of this duology. Interestingly enough the Krakoan text at the end of the issue reads, “House of X”. So maybe the last issue of Powers of X will connect the two more and finish setting up the new status quo.

It’s the big day! Looking forward to hearing the reactions to this issue.

I can’t believe Moira turned out to be Omega Sentinels baby with Apocalypse mummadrai who was put through the siege perilous in the future and travelled back in time from an alternate dimension!

Oh .. and is a clone who is in love with … oh *throws dart at dartboard* Wolverine!

You were close.

Honestly I thought this final issue was a bit of a letdown – I was hoping for more in terms of payoffs of all the stuff that was set up earlier in the two series.

What we get is interesting, but it doesn’t feel like quite enough.

Dave wrote:

What we get is interesting, but it doesn’t feel like quite enough.

I Agree. I am glad that solved the mystery of Moira 6 but it answered too few questions. X3 asked a huge question but they did not even attempt a rudimentary answer. Why Moira disappeared also was not given a sufficient answer. The ending was very blase. Against the background of the celebration from HOX 6, Xavier and Magneto saying “we’ll see”, imo, is weak.
I understand we get the restart of X men next week to look forward but at the end of this great 12 week event we should have a better finale. I am thinking it might have been better if POX 6 should have come before HOX 6. That was a better finale issue than the one we got this week.

I loved it.

This is just the start. Hickman doesn’t always lay out so many cards in this form, but we know what they are trying to fight. We know about Moira 6 and that probably does change things on reread. I think I’m now going to try all the issue 1s as I can’t see where Fallen Angels fits in, but there must be a plan. We know Hickman can land his stories.

In Hickman we trust.

I thought it was a fine book-end. There’s obviously a lot of unanswered questions and it seems like lots of people were expecting them answered in these 12 issues. I guess i’m remembering Hickmans Avengers and FF runs which answered things as they went, but i also think the conceptual premises of those runs seemed far less complicated then what we have now.

I wasn’t surprised by the fact that the Librarian was a human. I’m not sure if it was meant to be a reveal or not but i thought it was pretty clear that the blue guys were meant to be the next iteration of humankind by the fact that nimrod was floating about. Although i did assume (wrongly) that the species in the enclosure was the “old humankind” kept alive to be studied.

It seems, going forward, the overall premise of the series will be about stopping both “technological leaps” and “post human leaps” to prevent Homo Novissima (although Ultron and superhumans have been around for a while), as well as defending Krakoa from external (and internal threats) – likely intersped with drama as moira, xavier, magneto and apocalypse work out what to do. Maybe the Dominion is, for all intents and purposes, the “big bad” like the Beyonders were in Avengers.

I’m thinking we might get the annual X-Crossover for a couple of years which deals with this while the books do their distinct things in between.

I guess im a bit unclear as to why Mutants can’t know the future? Because they’ll be sad? It’s not like they haven’t dealt with dystopias before. Besides, Destiny isn’t the only pre-cog (Blindfold is as well) so how exactly will that be managed? And what about dudes like Cable and Rachel and Bishop that evidently came from futures which may not be part of Moira’s lives (Cable is the most obvious stand out to me)? What is the plan for those guys?

Anyway, it was a strong bookend if not disappointing in some of the reveals. We get reminded of the tease of Cardinal and Rasputin, and the tower of ascension, so i doubt we’ve seen the last of those.

I’ll look forward to seeing what Hickman does with his X-books but I don’t think I’m interested in seeing any of the other writers explore these ideas, so I’ll probably just pick out the Hickman ones going forward. Hopefully they won’t try and make it essential to follow the whole line.

It depends how greedy Marvel publishing are.

There isn’t enough set up here which really establishes the premises of the other titles which suggests to me that Hickman’s story is about what goes on at Krakoa proper, and the other titles are allowed to be periphery to that as long as they coincide with the overall plan.

Also, in the spirit of this thread, my new theory is this:
The librarian knew Moira would die because he wants to accumulate as much knowledge as possible, and ultimately, allow the godhead to accumulate as much knowledge as possible. The series will end “in the future” where Mutants and Humans ascend together, this fulfilling Xavier’s dream in a sense, and creating a new godhead that exists outside of time as a benevolent force in the universe (perhaps it’s even the Phoenix, if you wanted to go super referential). At the centre of this will be Moira – this will be her 11th life.

For me Marauders and Excalibur are both Krakoa focused, plus have Council members in them. As I’ve said I can’t see where Fallen Angels fits.

Fallen Angels is supposedly about those who don’t “fit in” with Krakoa so it might be more about the subculture. You’ve got young cable, x23, Kwannon – they’re all sort of overshadowed by ‘other’ versions of themselves. Apparently Husk and Bling are in it too, so it’s basically Hot Young Cable and the Women

I’m getting issue 1, but no one there I care about.

I feel like if they changed the title to Hot Young Cable and The Women it would be a much easier sell.

I should be in x-men marketing.

I really enjoyed PoX 6, expect a lengthy, pretentious post about the 12 issues overall laying out why and my ULTIMATE MOIRA THEORY.

(that is, my theory on what Moira is up to, not a theory about Moira from the Ultimate universe)

Yay lengthy post!

I can do a short version of my theory: her long game is Mutants-in-Space

(We’ve seen echoes of this in one of the other futures, and seeds (literally) planted in the current reality)

Mike wrote:

I can do a short version of my theory: her long game is Mutants-in-Space

(We’ve seen echoes of this in one of the other futures, and seeds (literally) planted in the current reality)

Ummm okay but I feel strongly that this post could have been lengthier

My review from the New Comics thread.
.
Powers of X #6 – Wow, I was so close on my theory of what was happening in the X^3 timeline but so far off. It really did play with my expectations of what I had assumed we were told before. I actually really liked how this issue went back and revealed the story of the why behind what we have already seen reframing what came before almost like the film Memento. I loved the subtle connecting tissue revealed here. I would have always loved to see behind the curtain more but I don’t think that was ever the intent of these series. Instead, they were obviously meant to set up the new status quo that will lead into the new series. I am definitely looking forward to X-Men and might sample a couple of the other books with my eye on Marauders and Excalibur. I’m toying with the idea of picking up all the #1 issues.

[Will_C]

I think Moira exiled herself to No-Place for Magneto’s benefit. Her ultimate plan seems to be more his style than Xavier’s. Xavier’s faith in humanity will always threaten to push Magneto away, but Moira’s faith was lost long ago. So she hijacked Xavier’s body to keep the one she really needed (at that point) on board.

I honestly still don’t think we’re in the 616. I think House of X is just a few details off from where it needs to be. The militancy is fine but many of the good guys seem dangerously close to viewing themselves as superior beings.

Maybe at the end of Hickman’s run we’ll learn the final flaw Moira has to correct, and when she dies one more time and fixes that flaw (probably erasing her mutantcy somehow), she’ll do so in a way that will allow the bulk of Hickman’s X stories to remain intact, with the differences covered perhaps in a montage.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Will_C.

For me, this issue seems to make it pretty clear that we’re not in the regular universe.

Moira’s decision to ‘break’ Charles makes him a different character to the one from the regular MU from a very early stage. Given that this is explicitly set up in direct contrast to his regular MU persona, it can’t be the regular timeline.

I think it makes sense for the regular MU to be Moira’s final life where she somehow cures herself and lives out her days as her regular non-mutant self.

I’ve read that comment a lot on various review sites.

I don’t think so. I think it’s more likely that Xavier mind wiped himself along with Magneto until “the right time”. I also think he mind wiped himself after he read Moiras mind without permission and discovered something he absolutely didn’t want to know.

I think the only person who has known the “whole” time is Moira, and, to a lesser extent, Sinister.

BESIDES she gets an 11th life if she does everything right – that means House of X has to be where everything goes right for mutantdom – then what is the 616? A shitty reward for moira as she gets to watch it go south again?

Nay, Moira will become a god. Marketh my wordoths!

I still don’t think this is the 616 proper… it’s waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too inconsistent with everything unless they use some handwavium bullshit to retcon the whole thing.
 
I do think that in the end, the “final tweak” will be Moira not interfering anymore, which will be what the 616 is, because that’s what would make the most sense, but it’s also painfully obvious… so who knows…
 
As for the issue itself, I’m a bit disappointed… beyond the repeated pages, which weren’t needed (not all of them at least), the ultimate reveal of the blue men and their agenda is a MASSIVE letdown… so you’re telling me that the ultimate baddies were those pesky humans all along? yawn… been there, done that.
 
I much prefered the idea of both humankind and mutantkind being inevitably superceded by a superior race, in this case the machines. I was kinda hoping the blue men were the result of an alliance between humans and mutants to become something more, and greater than the machines, or I dunno… something fresh. Cause as it stands, it seems the blue men are just another type of Kree, like literally almost the same thing, and again, that’s not as interesting if they’re what needs to be avoided.
 
Also, I’m not particularly happy, as I mentioned before, that this was all basically setup. I mean, I guess at least they concluded the blue men story-line, or, maybe not, since they seem to be “the ennemy”, but there as not much else in terms of resolution… like, I’d be super fuckin’ disappointed if I read a trade of this and it ended with a big fat TO BE CONTINUED… in as many books Marvel can squeeze money out of for who knows how long.
 
Anyways, I guess I’ll check them out, or some of them, but I doubt I’ll have the patience to stick with it. I still don’t believe this is the 616, and I’m not so hot for YET ANOTHER alternate reality tale… I mean I guess there’s nothing wrong with those, but in the end they all feel like they “don’t matter”… and on the other hand, I kinda wouldn’t want it to be the 616 either way, because I’m not in love with the direction of this whole thing… this is the sort of thing that will get retconned the moment it’s over, like Morrison’s run… so eh, I can’t muster the excitement, I’m afraid.

God I hope Hickman has Xavier turn to the reader and say, “by the way, this is hap opening in the 616”

Besides, Moira not interfering was life 1.

Anonymous wrote:

God I hope Hickman has Xavier turn to the reader and say, “by the way, this is hap opening in the 616”

Besides, Moira not interfering was life 1.

 
And we have NO IDEA how that turned out… for all we know that was the “good ending” =P

She died.

I kind of wish they would have updated that graphic to include her 6th life and what we now know from her 10th life. I wonder if that graphic will come back at some point in the future.
.
As someone whose job depends on data science and how to represent that data, I find these fascinating.

I’m sure it will. Like a lot of the other graphics in HoX/PoX it seems designed to let Hickman be explicit about exactly what he’s letting you know at a given time.

(Similar to the Krakoa ruling council diagram that has repeated across the last couple of issues).

If any of those lives resemble the 616 (excepting life 10) it’ll be life 4 – xavier and moira never married, but thats an easy retcon in secret, as is starting the institute together.

But thats not it you gigantic mob of silly faced people. The 616 is Life 10.

[Rocket]

One of my biggest questions is how is Proteus around? Moira seems to be the architect of all this. Did she take some years off, go seduce Mactaggart, have Proteus, then bring him to Krakoa? it just seems very strange.

edit: brain fart

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Rocket.

Rocket wrote:

One of my biggest questions is how is Proteus around? Moira seems to be the architect of all this. Did she take some years off, go seduce McAllister, have Proteus, then bring him to Krakoa? it just seems very strange.

Proteus’ birth is in the timeline at Year 31 that Tim posted above. If I remember correctly, her marriage to MacTaggart (who the fuck is McAllister) is shown earlier in the timeline.

RonnieM wrote:

(who the fuck is McAllister)

He’s a former manager of Coventry City.

And the implication is that Moira specifically sought out MacTaggart as a genetic match likely to create a reality-manipulating mutant.

… which also invites a different perspective on Xavier’s relationship with Gabi Haller, given Legion.

Mike wrote:

And the implication is that Moira specifically sought out MacTaggart as a genetic match likely to create a reality-manipulating mutant.

… which also invites a different perspective on Xavier’s relationship with Gabi Haller, given Legion.

Is this the place where I confess that I always get Proteus and Legion mixed up?

1 user thanked author for this post.

Andrew

This is a safe space Ronnie

[Jon]

Anonymous wrote:

She died.

Yes Tim, SHE died… the question is what happened to the mutant race on that time line? Not to Moira herself… perhaps that’s a “good ending” timeline for both humans and mutants, or at least for mutants… but we don’t know, because she dies, and apparently never gets involved.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Jon.

I’ve loved this set of minis by the way. I won’t comment too much because I am strange and have a dislike of story speculation. I prefer to just see it unfold.

garjones wrote:

I’ve loved this set of minis by the way. I won’t comment too much because I am strange and have a dislike of story speculation. I prefer to just see it unfold.

This is actually my general MO. This story just seems to beg for it a little more with clear fakeouts in certain places. I don’t know what’s going to happen either which seems a rarity.

[Jon]

Also, and I’ll probably need to re-read the whole thing, but there’s a lot of things that don’t make sense here… or have no in-story logic… So X0 and X1 are presumably her 10th timeline, or the latest… X2 shows her 9th life and X3 shows her 6th life.
 
In X2 she joins apocalypse and we get that whole thing with Nimrod and they acquire the location of the Master Mold in space, which they will then destroy in X1. But that doesn’t really make sense does it? Because it’s in X3 that she lives the longest and she and logan “finally understand” why they “always lose”. What she discovers in that 6th life is that it’s the humans who are behind the whole thing basically, they discover their end-game which is becoming post-human and joining with the phalanx. Blue man literally tells them that both the Sentinels and Nimrods were basically distractions…
 
So what doesn’t make sense to me, is why she’d focus her efforts on the machines on those lives after? I mean, sure to stop that future she saw in X3 from happening, but for exemple, in X2 (9th life) they go through a whole thing to learn the Master Mold’s secret location, which is fine and all, but surely that was completely unnecessary when she’s cozy with the world’s biggest telepath who could arguably find out in the past before the Master Mold is even created, not to mention the whole other host of mutants (and other X-friendly heroes) who could help with that…
 
But more than that, knowing what’s humanity’s long-term plan, wouldn’t Xavier’s original dream be the more sensible path and work WITH humanity in peace to change the future?
 
And that’s barely one of my qualms with this story, because you have to remember, it’s not like there aren’t other superheros in the world, like say Reed Richards, who would probably be more than up to help with the situation if he knew what was ultimately at stake… I’m sure Reed wouldn’t be so hot on the idea of humanity merging with the Phalanx for exemple.
 
But beyond that, let’s also not forget all the different alternate futures we know of where none of that happens, which means changing that particular outcome shouldn’t be too difficult. Cable’s future was basically a mutant-ruled future by Apocalypse… wouldn’t that make it a “better ending” for mutants and Cable basically a villain for stopping it? Same goes for the original AoA timeline.
 
Also, I get the point of the story is focusing on the many lives of Moira X, but are we just gonna ignore the existence and over use of timetravel in the MCU, and the fact that not only humans have several way of doing it, BUT there’s a few mutants who can do it? A lot of this story kinda seems moot, and that’s kind of the problem with trying to do this type of story for Marvel (or DC for that matter)… I mean, sure it’s fun and all, but it just kinda doesn’t work. Anyhoo… rant over… =P

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Jon.

Jon wrote:

but are we just gonna ignore the existence and over use of timetravel in the MCU

Of course you are. Time travel stories never make any sense if you give them any scrutiny.

Given the prime time travel Marvel story is Days of Future Past I would imagine that this is connected to why no precogs. I have definitely been on the maybe not 616 viewpoint.

Just reading this thread makes me sooooo grateful that I don’t read Marvel comics anymore. I mean, this statement alone:

Jon wrote:

X2 shows her 9th life and X3 shows her 6th life.

It’s a plus for me when a superhero story doesn’t bother too much with what characters in other books could be doing to help. Logically every major battle should rope in as many available heroes as possible but these stories work best with a limited cast.

njerry wrote:

Just reading this thread makes me sooooo grateful that I don’t read Marvel comics anymore. I mean, this statement alone:

Jon wrote:

X2 shows her 9th life and X3 shows her 6th life.

You’re missing out.

RonnieM wrote:

This is actually my general MO. This story just seems to beg for it a little more with clear fakeouts in certain places.

Absolutely. I’d go as far as to say that if you’re not actively wondering what Hickman isn’t telling you, then you’re not really engaging with the story in the way that he intends.

It’s not like he’s very subtle about it, setting out big text pieces that then have huge redacted chunks to highlight exactly which gaps your imagination should be trying to fill in.

Jon wrote:

Tim wrote:

She died.

Yes Tim, SHE died… the question is what happened to the mutant race on that time line? Not to Moira herself… perhaps that’s a “good ending” timeline for both humans and mutants, or at least for mutants… but we don’t know, because she dies, and apparently never gets involved.

Ok, im misunderstanding you then. Arent you saying that this is an alternate reality and the story will return to the 616 whereby Moira is just a normal human? If so, thats not life 1 – if its about moira not interfering thats life 1, but thats not the 616

Anonymous wrote:

I still don’t think this is the 616 proper… it’s waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too inconsistent with everything unless they use some handwavium bullshit to retcon the whole thing.

Yeah, everything at the start of HoX is completely off-model from what we’ve seen before in the 616 universe. It feels like a cold reboot or an alternate reality like the Ultimate Universe. All of these alternate timelines gives them a lot of wiggle room, though.

At any rate, I do fully expect Hickman’s run to be almost completely retconned after he leaves the X-sandbox. It will be revealed that Moira wasn’t actually a mutant with multiple lives, and that everything that happened was caused by the manipulations of Apocalypse, Sinister, or Krakoa — either mind control or some kind of dream or hallucination. Or the “real” mutants are all in suspended animation in pods, and all of the stuff going down from HoX-on was done by “clones” of the real mutants that were controlled by Krakoa or something similar.

Hickman’s X-verse is an even more radical departure than Morrison’s was, and look how quickly they backtracked from that.

I didn’t say that! Fake news!

^
Second time that’s happened, and I think I just figured out why I’m putting the wrong names to quotes… the “Reply” and “Quote” functions are now at the top of the posts instead of the bottom, unlike
not only the old board but every other board I’ve used.

It’s not particularly intuitive, where you have to go back to the top of a post to reply to it. (I’m using a laptop, things might look different on a phone or tablet, though.)

No, it’s the same on mobile.

It’s how this message board package is built I’m afraid. It’s one of those things we’ll get used to over time.

I think it’s fine once you get used to it.

[Mike]

garjones wrote:

. It’s one of those things we’ll get used to over time.

… coincidentally, this is also the official Conservative line on life in apocalyptic post-Brexit Britain.

Cup of tea?

(NB: actual tea may no longer be available post-Brexit, please enjoy Hot Tea Substitute TM (soil in a cup of hot water))

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Mike.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Mike.

Anonymous wrote:

Ok, im misunderstanding you then. Arent you saying that this is an alternate reality and the story will return to the 616 whereby Moira is just a normal human? If so, thats not life 1 – if its about moira not interfering thats life 1, but thats not the 616

UHm… yes and no? xD
 
I mean, that IS what I’m saying, but no, I didn’t say 616 would be her 1st life, it would be her 11th… Her first life she didn’t know she was a mutant, she didn’t know anything, and we the readers don’t know what happened in the far future (that goes for many of her lives, btw)… What I’m saying is, the logical thing would be for Moira to reach the conclusion that the problem has been her all along, she’s the one causing that particular outcome, therefore she’d take herself off the board by un-mutating herself in her 11th life and wiping her memory and just leaving stuff up to fate. There’s a name for that sort of thing, but I’m a bit too drunk to remember right now… I mean that thing when a character is kind of fucking things up by trying to fix things… someone might know
 
But again, that might be a little too obvious and Hickman might just use some plotdevice to retcon stuff instead… we’ll see…

I think at this stage, given the current status quo with Krakoa is beginning to be reflected in other MU titles, it pretty much has to be the prime/616 reality; anything else would need a Secret Wars style whole-line reboot wouldn’t it?

[Jon]

Keravin wrote:

Given the prime time travel Marvel story is Days of Future Past I would imagine that this is connected to why no precogs. I have definitely been on the maybe not 616 viewpoint.

 
How is DoFP the “prime” time travel story? Might’ve been one of the first and probably one of the more popular, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it the “prime” one considering it was very short and not all that important in the long run. Age of Apocalypse had a lot more impact, for exemple. Cable is a REALLY popular character, and Bishop too, to a lesser extent… Alternate futures is sort of a tradition in Marvel stories… seems the future is always in constant flux, and that’s not even without getting into the whole “do those futures cease to be or do they become their own parallel reality” type of question, which might come into play still, btw…
 

Will_C wrote:

It’s a plus for me when a superhero story doesn’t bother too much with what characters in other books could be doing to help. Logically every major battle should rope in as many available heroes as possible but these stories work best with a limited cast.

 
Sure, but it’s kinda hard to not do that when dealing with such big concepts. Even in AoA the other “human” heroes were involved, if in a very small capacity. Plus they DO appear in the series, again, even if in a small capacity. Franklin Richards is kind of a big deal, particularly considering that Moira and Xavier were looking for a “reality-altering” mutant… that’s Franklin’s power, IIRC. I don’t think that cameo in earlier issues was just a cameo.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Jon.

[RonnieM]

Jason wrote:

Second time that’s happened, and I think I just figured out why I’m putting the wrong names to quotes… the “Reply” and “Quote” functions are now at the top of the posts instead of the bottom, unlike
not only the old board but every other board I’ve used.

It’s not particularly intuitive, where you have to go back to the top of a post to reply to it. (I’m using a laptop, things might look different on a phone or tablet, though.)

You’re overcomplicating it. Just drag over the text you want to quote and hit “Quote” or just hit “Quote” if you want to quote the whole post.

You shouldn’t need to type any names yourself.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by RonnieM.

Dawn of X Primer: ‘X-Force’

Jon wrote:

Tim wrote:

Ok, im misunderstanding you then. Arent you saying that this is an alternate reality and the story will return to the 616 whereby Moira is just a normal human? If so, thats not life 1 – if its about moira not interfering thats life 1, but thats not the 616

UHm… yes and no? xD

I mean, that IS what I’m saying, but no, I didn’t say 616 would be her 1st life, it would be her 11th… Her first life she didn’t know she was a mutant, she didn’t know anything, and we the readers don’t know what happened in the far future (that goes for many of her lives, btw)… What I’m saying is, the logical thing would be for Moira to reach the conclusion that the problem has been her all along, she’s the one causing that particular outcome, therefore she’d take herself off the board by un-mutating herself in her 11th life and wiping her memory and just leaving stuff up to fate. There’s a name for that sort of thing, but I’m a bit too drunk to remember right now… I mean that thing when a character is kind of fucking things up by trying to fix things… someone might know

But again, that might be a little too obvious and Hickman might just use some plotdevice to retcon stuff instead… we’ll see…

I see what you’re saying but that doesn’t gel with Moira as we know her. She started Muir island, she helped discover the X-gene, she harboured Magneto, she helped establish the Xavier Institute – she’s been an active ally of the X-men. If she decided everything were her fault she woudlnt do that.

Maybe she might decide that it’s her foreknowledge which is the fault of everything but without foreknowledge she just lives life 1.

Hickman’s been very careful with this – I see why lots of people want an alternative universe tale in the grand tradition of Age of Apocalypse and House of M but to those people i say – Where are the cool costume redesigns????

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe she might decide that it’s her foreknowledge which is the fault of everything

 
That is what I mean by “not interfering”, I mean not interfering with destiny/the future, not necessarily staying away from the X-Men… As far as we’ve seen, the only common denominator that leads to that post-human blue people future is Moira herself from the moment she starts using her power to change shit around. Hence why I said we don’t know how her only normal life’s far future ended up being… might’ve been worse, might’ve been better… that’s kind of the key, but in that first normal life, she just lived normally and died, so we’ve got no account of it, at least so far.
 
Speaking of other issues, if I understand correctly, in this last iteration, it seems she’s still expecting muntantkind to fail, which doesn’t make sense considering all she/they went through on her previous life to get the location of the mastermold. Wy bother if she believes it’s pointless? =/
 
Anyhoo, I’m expecting this whole thing to go badly at some point, because there’s no way Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and all of them will just create their Utopia and that’s it… It’s more likely that Xavier & co. will just succeed and we’ll get a glimpse of what happens when mutants DO win… and it might not be pretty… the conclusion of it being, no one should have foreknowledge like that.

Jon wrote:

Keravin wrote:

Given the prime time travel Marvel story is Days of Future Past I would imagine that this is connected to why no precogs. I have definitely been on the maybe not 616 viewpoint.

How is DoFP the “prime” time travel story? Might’ve been one of the first and probably one of the more popular, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it the “prime” one considering it was very short and not all that important in the long run. Age of Apocalypse had a lot more impact, for exemple. Cable is a REALLY popular character, and Bishop too, to a lesser extent… Alternate futures is sort of a tradition in Marvel stories… seems the future is always in constant flux, and that’s not even without getting into the whole “do those futures cease to be or do they become their own parallel reality” type of question, which might come into play still, btw…

The alternate future thing in Marvel comes from Days of Future Past. It set them up as a trope for the X Men and is a stone cold classic. Rachel and Nimrod come from it which is vitally important.

Jon wrote:

Anyhoo, I’m expecting this whole thing to go badly at some point, because there’s no way Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and all of them will just create their Utopia and that’s it… It’s more likely that Xavier & co. will just succeed and we’ll get a glimpse of what happens when mutants DO win… and it might not be pretty… the conclusion of it being, no one should have foreknowledge like that

I still don’t follow your logic but I agree there’s going to be drama. There wouldn’t be a story otherwise!

Moving on, does anyone think we’ll see Franklin Richards again? He’s a Hickman favourite and a major player when it comes to mutants altering reality

I think Franklin’s current story arc in FF could easily be leading up to him leaving his family and coming to Krakoa, so wouldn’t surprise me at all.

And again, they emphasized a bit too much the fact that they needed a “reality altering” mutant… They have Proteus now, but Franklin seems like a much better candidate… and more stable, probably.

Lots of little bits of info as Hickman answers questions… even hinting at a future Moira series

X-Men Monday #32 – Jonathan Hickman answers your House of X and Powers of X questions

That’s a quality read. I guess I’m a little disappointed in his blase response about Wolverine, but it’s fine.

Sounds like there is a lot in the pipeline but I really hope Claremont isn’t writing the Moira book.

huh I’m interested in that tidbit about Jean… I wonder what he’s referring to…

Jon wrote:

huh I’m interested in that tidbit about Jean… I wonder what he’s referring to…

Yeah the Phoenix is a powerful weapon.

If Xaviees rebooting mutants then it makes sense he’s put Jean back in that mindset

[Jon]

garjones wrote:

Jon wrote:

huh I’m interested in that tidbit about Jean… I wonder what he’s referring to…

No I know that’s the book he’s refering to, but what does it mean? I honestly just thought they chose to use that particular costume just because, but I’m not seeing what would that mean… does it mean Jean still has the Phoenix force here? is he forshadowing her death AGAIN (god I hope not)? The way he put it made it sound as if the costume choice is really important
 
I mean, technically, she did die again in space in that mission to the master mold, so I wonder if that’s what he was referencing?

• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Jon.

https://www.newsarama.com/47402-hickman-reveals-solo-moira-x-title-that-will-dance-between-the-raindrops-of-x-men-continuity.html

“So, yes, there was going to be a 1000-year timeline in the back of Powers of X #6 explaining all the cool things that happened in that life,” Hickman said. “The reason why this changed in production is because there was a writer we had hoped to get to do our eventual Moira book (that works as a kind of ‘dancing between the raindrops’ of X-Continuity story), and they agreed to do it long before we were expecting them to commit. Which was great news.

“Then I basically told them what I was planning to do and asked if they wanted me to not put the timeline in the book (which would lock a lot of plot/story stuff in), and after talking about it, we decided not to stick it in there,” Hickman continued.

It’s Claremont, isn’t it? It’s got to be Claremont! (I mainly hope it is just for Ronnie’s reactions )

I hope it’s not bloody Claremont.

I … guess I hope it’s either Ellis or Caiman.

X-Men #1 was fun. Loved the interactions between the Summers family and the Marauders.

[Rocket]

I read that Hickman article. like others, i was caught by the comment about Jean’s costume. I don’t want her to die either but there is a new norm in Xmen. death is meaningless to them now. if she dies, they will just remake her. None of this long drawn out fuss about her dying. I liked his answers about Omega level mutants and “MAKE MORE MUTANTS” I also clicked on the article about Fallen Angels. Not sure about Bling but the other 4 all have identity issues and that intrigues me. Click on the picture below for the link to that article.

‘There’s a lot of ‘me’ in it’ – Bryan Hill talks Fallen Angels

• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Rocket.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Rocket.

X-Corp incoming

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-stealth-announces-x-corp-series/

paul f wrote:

X-Men #1 was fun. Loved the interactions between the Summers family and the Marauders.

You mean the Starjammers? I laughed a lot at the Mooommmm.

[paul f]

Eduardo wrote:

You mean the Starjammers?

Yes, obv. Stupid brain.

Also loving the continued teasing of whatever’s going on with Scott/Jean/Logan: https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/16/20916145/x-men-1-wolverine-cyclops-jean-grey-love-triangle-hickman

• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by paul f.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by paul f.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by paul f.

One of my big questions is Human interaction with Krakoa. While I believe Scott does enjoy the view, did he do this because Corsair may not be welcome on Krakoa proper?

Yeah, i think when Scott says he liked the view he’s being glib and non mentioning the real reasons.

Corsair and the Starjammers are a big one, but there’s probably others too.

My points of interesting noteworthiness:

1. Is Scott banging Polaris? Holy hell Hickman’s X-Men is crazy orgy!

2. There was fun to be made with Vulcan’s stilted dialogue but I hope Hickman has more to bring to the table with that character.

3. It was nice seeing the Summers’sses together acting like a family. I feel like Hope should have been there.

4. The post-human character is interesting. She vaguely reminds me of Black Swan.

5. I am willing to go for the ride on evil Karima Shapandar and the mad-scientist Orchis mob. There’s not much there right now, but i trust Hickman.

yeah, I see your point. But do you trust Hickman?