DUNE 2021 – SPOILERS!!!

Topic

I’m not seeing a thread for this, and it’s premiering next week (already out in a lot of places, including the high seas) so we might as well have one.

So yeah, I found a copy, not the greatest quality, but eh, I was too curious not to, I’ll catch it again on a cleaner copy to enjoy the visuals more. I think the visuals are probably the highlight here, and probably worth a trip to the cinema for whomever dares (from what I could see at least). The soundtrack is pretty good too, so it might be a full experience.

That said, I won’t go into too many details right now, but I was a bit disapointed with it… I need to watch it in full glorious ultra HD to get a better sense of the visual quality, but some stuff I can judge as is, which is:

The designs… some stuff is great (like the ornithopters, amazing job) and some other stuff was rather disapointing… I gotta say, for all its flaws, the Lynch version had a very unique aesthetic, and I’m not even comparing here, but it’s just that some stuff feels a bit too flat and pedestrian. And I’m sorry but I just don’t like the design of the worms… that is the one thing which is inescapable not to compare it with the Lynch design, because it has been used in soooo many things by now (the Lynch movie might’ve taken it from somewhere else, now that I think about it), it’s kind of iconic… but more than that, these new ones are kinda crap… I get what they were going for, but nah, it looks like something else.

The second thing that is quite disapointing is the writing/plot, because I was kind of expecting them to explore the story a bit more, given how they have A LOT more time with a 2-parter, and yet, the completely skip over many things that I would consider, maybe not vital, but important in terms of character development specially. Some characters are also badly written, as in that’s not how they are in the books, but more importantly, they kind of do them a diservice by these changes, I’m talking specifically about Lady Jessica, but others too. The world-building is also rather lackluster, surprisingly, since you’d expect more of it with a longer run-time.

It’s a bit of a shame, I was expecting a more deep dive into the complexities of the plot, and yet they focus a lot more in the spectacle (which is good for sure). I know you porbably can’t do a very complete adaptation of the story, even with two movies, but I dunno, I was hoping for a better effort. This feels very truncated too, so I’m hoping there’s a 3 hours+ director’s cut of this in the pipeline (we know they filmed quite a lot, so here’s hoping).

That said, it’s Dennis Villeneuve on visuals and Zimmer on music, so it’s not bad, obviously… this is all coming from a long-time fan, so it’s obviously different for me. I do wonder how the casuals will react to it. It IS a lot more digestable, for sure, so it won’t hit the same walls the Lynch one did at least.

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I enjoyed most of it though it was a bit long in stretches. Essentially, I liked the changes but it did feel more like a television show than a movie like if Game of Thrones focused only on Jon Snow’s arc.

I do wonder if people who are unfamiliar with DUNE either the books, miniseries or 80’s movie will appreciate it.

However, the big takeaway is that bald people are sadistic, fat people are evil and if you’re bald and fat, you’re the Devil.

Anonymous wrote:

However, the big takeaway is that bald people are sadistic, fat people are evil and if you’re bald and fat, you’re the Devil.

Can confirm… we also have zero personality traits and no character development whatsoever

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Jon wrote:

The second thing that is quite disapointing is the writing/plot, because I was kind of expecting them to explore the story a bit more, given how they have A LOT more time with a 2-parter, and yet, the completely skip over many things that I would consider, maybe not vital, but important in terms of character development specially. Some characters are also badly written, as in that’s not how they are in the books, but more importantly, they kind of do them a diservice by these changes, I’m talking specifically about Lady Jessica, but others too. The world-building is also rather lackluster, surprisingly, since you’d expect more of it with a longer run-time.

That was the odd thing in that there did seem to be a tension between the filmmaking and the plotting. It didn’t seem like everything was integrated in the movie. There are a few fake-outs in regard to Paul’s prescience, and the scenes were artistic, but with a kind of artistry that did not really contribute to the story. The characterization was updated – except in the case of the Harkonnens where any character development was stamped out as soon as it showed up. There were a couple of moments where it seemed like Baron Harkonnen was about to reveal some hidden depth but they slammed the door on that literally in many cases.

On the plus side, there were some changes that made it a bit more relatable, though even then, it is not helpful to have modern day characterizations for characters in a completely different and fictional time period. Duke Leto is more like a modern politician, but at the same time, he comes off more like a weak modern politician more concerned about image than substance.

In regard to the whole, it doesn’t essentially stand out. Even though the visual artistry and design is very professional, a better story is still needed to justify all that. I never really felt that this story was really happening. There would always be one element in every scene that felt out of place.

Speaking of updated characterization:

Jessica. WTF were they thinking? They changed her A LOT and not for the better. She spends half of the movie having emotional meltdowns which is such a contradiction with her character and makes her come accross as a weak damsel in distress when she’s anything but… but not also does it make HER look bad, it also makes the whole Bene Gesserit look pretty weak and unimpressive. There’s is one meltdown she could be allowed to have, but other than that fuck no, she’s a BG, she’s supposed to be in full control of her body and emotions… that’s their whole thing. And listen, maybe the change wouldn’t be as egregious IF she weren’t one of the main characters, but as it is she has a lot of screen time and most of it just feels wrong… I dunno, out of all the issues in the movie, that might be the worst, tbh.

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That did seem like a miss. Again, I’m not even sure anyone would have caught the Mentat, Spacing Guild or Bene Gesserit distinctions if not already familiar with them. Like you pointed out, the story is comprehensible, but loses a lot of what makes it special.

I just watched it.

Visually and aurally, it was beautiful. The designs were great. Zimmer’s soundtrack complimented the film perfectly.

The acting, on the hand, was total crap. He has some great actors and does nothing with them. Timothee Chamalet has zero charisma and brings no weight to the role. I think cutting about 30 minutes would have helped a great deal, too.

I’m glad I saw it but I’m also very glad I watched it on HBO Max and didn’t waste money seeing it in the theater. This is definitely a wait for cable/streaming movie.

Todd wrote:

Timothee Chamalet has zero charisma and brings no weight to the role. I think cutting about 30 minutes would have helped a great deal, too.

Paul Atreides is a bit of a blank character in the books as well. He’s an entirely self-contained character that you only get glimpses of because we can read what he’s thinking. Lynch’s DUNE had to turn their thoughts into dialogue but honestly, the Lynch cast was a lot more fun to watch.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Todd wrote:

Timothee Chamalet has zero charisma and brings no weight to the role. I think cutting about 30 minutes would have helped a great deal, too.

Paul Atreides is a bit of a blank character in the books as well. He’s an entirely self-contained character that you only get glimpses of because we can read what he’s thinking. Lynch’s DUNE had to turn their thoughts into dialogue but honestly, the Lynch cast was a lot more fun to watch.

The Lynch cast was quite entertaining and very engaging.

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Todd wrote:

I’m glad I saw it but I’m also very glad I watched it on HBO Max and didn’t waste money seeing it in the theater. This is definitely a wait for cable/streaming movie.

It is difficult to really judge as it is only a partially told story with the majority of this setting up the protagonist to actually do something when most of this movie leaving Paul as a secondary character in the role he had in the events. It’s like ending Star Wars just a little bit after Ben Kenobi’s death. Not nearly a satisfying watch in itself.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

Todd wrote:

I’m glad I saw it but I’m also very glad I watched it on HBO Max and didn’t waste money seeing it in the theater. This is definitely a wait for cable/streaming movie.

It is difficult to really judge as it is only a partially told story with the majority of this setting up the protagonist to actually do something when most of this movie leaving Paul as a secondary character in the role he had in the events. It’s like ending Star Wars just a little bit after Ben Kenobi’s death. Not nearly a satisfying watch in itself.

I really think Dune would have worked better as a TV series with each season representing a different novel. I think it had the potential to become the next Game of Thrones. There really is a lot of story to condense into a series of movies that will come out years apart. Denis Villanueva has said he envisions this as a trilogy with Dune Parts 1 & 2 representing the first novel and Part 3 would be Dune Messiah.

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Yeah – there would have been a lot of good opportunities for a show – and still could be for that matter, there have already been three adaptations – and seems like a Bene Gesserit show is still in development.

First, they could have remained faithful to the world and the story without making it all about Paul. Paul is not very active in the first part of the story, so in the first season, he could just be a main character and not the protagonist so Duke Leto comes off the hero – very much like Ned Stark actually with a similar fate.

Then we get to know Paul and his resourcefulness as he escapes the Harkonnen and then becomes a Fremen leader. The part of the book that could use a lot more development is the insurgency or jihad that Paul leads. Turning it into a real war with real consequences, victories and set-backs could be great. Also, the part in the story where Paul just happens upon Gurney always bugged me. I think showing us more of Gurney’s story from the fall of the Atriedes to Spice Smuggler would add a lot to that section. Maybe even have Gurney and Paul at odds in several battles before they realize who they actually are. To stop spice production, Paul needs to stop the smugglers as well, but Gurney needs the profits from spice smuggling to achieve revenge on the Harkonnens. Maybe Gurney is even involved in plotting against the Fremen rebels because they are causing so much trouble for his operation.

Also, setting up the Sardaukar’s plan to use a Ghola of Duncan is also something they could have added to that part of the story to set up future seasons into Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Eventually, Duncan becomes something of the main character and watching his various gholas develop from childhood to adulthood would be interesting – and challenging from a production point of view.

Again, spreading out the focus from Paul is always a good move. Ironically, I was never really sold on the idea of DUNE as a series like GAME OF THRONES, but the movie did provide a way that it could work.

One interesting change in the movie from the book and the previous film was the scene where the Reverend Mother requests that the Baron spare Jessica and Paul. If you think about it, we know from the book that the Spacing Guild specifically commanded the Emperor to kill Paul. In the book, she was there when they made the request which was why she wanted to see Paul and perform the Gom Jabbar test in the first place.

Also, the Emperor would have told the Baron to make sure to kill Paul as well. He would not have dared to leave that out when the Guild threatened him so directly if he failed to do so.

So, that scene must have played out very differently in this version of the movie, or the Reverend Mother would be putting herself at risk making such a request to the Baron who could then communicate it to the Emperor.

Another good element of the movie was it’s presentation of the Sardaukar – they were more interesting than the Fremen, honestly, and I think a lot of fans have always been fascinated by them as well.

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Todd

I haven’t read any of the novels and there is a high probability I never will will so I’m okay with spoilers.

So, the inevitable question is, “How do we end this series?”

Assuming all goes well and the creeks don’t rise, the series could last 5 or more seasons. Is there a good point to end the show even if it doesn’t use every single novel? Or do you plow through to the end using all the books? I know there are some prequel novels so maybe that material could be absorbed into main story. GoT royally shit the bed toward the end so when a Dune series starts, how it all ends should be kept up in mind.

Frank Herbert himself said that Paul was only an anti-hero because he did not stop the story. Honestly, I don’t think an audience would have much interest after Children of Dune even though there are a lot of interesting ideas in the last three novels. Really, I think they could get 10 seasons out of Dune and Dune Messiah.

Todd wrote:

I haven’t read any of the novels and there is a high probability I never will will so I’m okay with spoilers. So, the inevitable question is, “How do we end this series?” Assuming all goes well and the creeks don’t rise, the series could last 5 or more seasons. Is there a good point to end the show even if it doesn’t use every single novel? Or do you plow through to the end using all the books? I know there are some prequel novels so maybe that material could be absorbed into main story. GoT royally shit the bed toward the end so when a Dune series starts, how it all ends should be kept up in mind.

I would end it with Emperor, and maaaaaaaaaybe incorporate some aspects from Heretics and Chapterhouse in there for full closure. But Emperor is really necessary, specially if you go further just the first book. I wouldn’t go fully into those 2 last books though, because they start a story that was never finished by Herbert and that is honestly more boring than not, except for a few instances.

Emperor is a good end-point itself, but it’s a bit unsatisfactory too, so again, you could cap it with some bits from Heretics, or better yet, you could frame Emperor within narratives from Heretics. The thing about Heretics is that it ends with the destruction of Arrakis, which is an even more definite ending, but I think you can get away with just using bits and pieces from that book without going fully into the plot. Notably, in Heretics there’s a moment where they find Leto’s secret stash (and his journals), which could be used to launch the season, and then end it with an epilogue and the destruction of Dune. That’s a great way of framing a final season, and hell even the overall story, tbh… it’s kinda weird they kept going after Dune was no more… for obvious reasons (plus it went nowhere).

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Todd

Yeah, that would make for a good story, but I really cannot think of a series where all the main cast is completely changed and then the story jumps a few thousand years in the future. In a sense, it would be like the original Star Trek series going immediately into The Next Generation.

I think Game of Thrones had at least two more seasons in it, but not much more than that. For DUNE, I could see GOD EMPEROR being a spin off after the original series if the original is a hit and I don’t really see Heretics and Chapterhouse being a natural part of the God Emperor narrative in television terms. Television audiences develop relationships with characters, not necessarily the worlds of the story, and Duncan Idaho is the only continuing character, but I don’t think it would be easy to expect audiences to get on board bringing back a cool warrior who dies in the first season.

Nevertheless, if the Dune movie is a hit, I’d rather see GOD EMPEROR adapted as a series incorporating Children of Dune with a showrunner who has the talent to combine both.

Well, Emperor is the conclusion to Leto’s arc, and to some extent part of Paul’s arc… plus yeah, there’s Duncan too, soooo… would it be weird? Sure, but that’s kind of the charm of that book… I was also surprised at the sudden time jump and change in the story, but pleasantly surprised.

As for the last 2 books… as I said, I wouldn’t really go into the story of those books, I would just use some parts as narrative framing devices… and probably only from Heretics, since now that I think about it, there’s nothing to take from Chapterhouse, I suppose.

But I do think it’s important to include some sort of epilogue that shows the results of Leto’s sacrifice (or the “Golden Path”), because without that, it all feels a bit unsatisfying, and that’s where some small parts of Heretics could come into play, but again, without getting into the whole business with Duncan, Miles (as much as I would LOVE to see him), the Honored Matres and all of that, because those are part of a different story arc which is a lot more disconnected from the rest of the overall storyline… and then Herbert also wrote himself into a cul-de-sac, but that’s another issue… =P

In a perfect world, we’d have 4-5 seasons dealing with Dune, Messiah, Children, Emperor (plus the bits I mentioned above)… and then if succesful a spin-off that would then tackle Heretics and Chapterhouse, for example, and it’d be probably best to heavily change Chapterhouse in order to finish it there, since the son’s sequels are so divisive. But a one season spin-off focusing on Miles? Fuck yeah… =P

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Todd

One element of Dune that was a little off for me was Chani. The actress just had two modes – surly and sunny with no in-between shades. The surly side did not seem natural but the sunny side did.

however, only a few of the actors felt like they were in character. Isaac, Skaarsgard, Rampling and especially Bardem as Stilgar certainly had some sense of belonging to the world. For the rest, it was like seeing them acting.

It’s a tough balance though, as the actors have to be relatable and can’t be completely alien. After all, they are speaking modern English and not whatever language they would realistically speak tens of thousands of years into the future.

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Todd

Urrm guys, I have skipped the last 4 or 5 post as this is spoilers allowed for what’s in the movie. If you want to delve into what happens in the books can you blank it out please because it’s not fair for people wanting to follow it in part 2.

I saw it today in Imax, thought it was very good. I very deliberately went to the cinema for a Villeneuve film as the scope and soundtrack are an enormous part of the experience. I fell short of loving it as the characterisation is a bit flat (although that can be common in sci-fi writers so not sure how much stems from the source – from what you are saying here that is the case with Paul) but enjoyed it a lot and look forward to part 2.

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Andrew

garjones wrote:

I fell short of loving it … but enjoyed it a lot and look forward to part 2.

That pretty much sums up my reaction. I’ll likely watch part 1 again soon, which is a good sign.

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garjones

garjones wrote:

Urrm guys, I have skipped the last 4 or 5 post as this is spoilers allowed for what’s in the movie. If you want to delve into what happens in the books can you blank it out please because it’s not fair for people wanting to follow it in part 2.

Do we really need that? I mean, the book is like 50+ years old, the movie 30+ and even the TV shows are quite old by now… I mean, I don’t even think I’ve gone into spoilers here, but sure, if you guys feel the need to a’right… I guess we could also move the discussion to a book thread, although I don’t think there’s enough interest for it… as you guys prefer I guess

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Todd

I have neither read the book nor seen the other adaptations so yes discussing what happens next is a big spoiler for me.

If spoiler tags (which still allow you to say whatever you want)mare such an onerous burden then I guess I gave my review and I’ll just take my leave of this thread.

It’s a tricky one when the books have been out for a while, but yeah, from memory the way we handled it in the Game Of Thrones threads was to just spoiler-tag anything that’s a potential future spoiler that comes from the books.

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Andrew

Well it seems they’ve greenlit part 2… but I wonder if he’ll get part 3… IIRC he’s said he’s interested in doing a 3-parter and cover Messiah as well, probably to cover Paul’s entire arc, which makes sense… that’d be pretty neat too.

I’m pretty disappointed they didn’t show the whole space folding thing in this movie… you’d think that could’ve been one of those really visually cool moments in the movie, but nah, they just unceremoniously skipped the whole thing… bummer. Although, tbh, those guild liners kinda looked like shit (just a big cylinder… wow, so cool), so bleh…

Really makes me appreciate Lynch’s opening A LOT more. I’ve seen many people criticise it quite a bit, but I think it was a very clever way of opening the movie… I wish Villeneuve would’ve poached some of that, considering he also changed the begining for this movie.

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Todd

Jon wrote:

Well it seems they’ve greenlit part 2… but I wonder if he’ll get part 3… IIRC he’s said he’s interested in doing a 3-parter and cover Messiah as well, probably to cover Paul’s entire arc, which makes sense… that’d be pretty neat too.

I’m pretty disappointed they didn’t show the whole space folding thing in this movie… you’d think that could’ve been one of those really visually cool moments in the movie, but nah, they just unceremoniously skipped the whole thing… bummer. Although, tbh, those guild liners kinda looked like shit (just a big cylinder… wow, so cool), so bleh…

Really makes me appreciate Lynch’s opening A LOT more. I’ve seen many people criticise it quite a bit, but I think it was a very clever way of opening the movie… I wish Villeneuve would’ve poached some of that, considering he also changed the begining for this movie.

I was also disappointed they didn’t show the space fold. At first I thought I missed something. I was looking forward to seeing that.

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Lynch’s DUNE did take an interesting but subtle departure from the book in that there was some sort of “magic” in the movie. In the books it is implied at least that the only supernatural ability was prescience provided by the spice. All the other powers like the voice or truth saying were developments of hypnosis and mentalist skills and things like folding space were actually done by machines. It was the prescient powers of the spice that allowed the Spacing Guild to navigate paths light years long.

in the movie though, it explicitly states that the spice gives the Guild the power to fold space. Characters with Bene Gesserit training literally have telepathy and sense events far away. The weirding modules use the intent of the user and seem like they amplify the power of the Voice as if it is something supernatural rather than a refined compulsion technique.

In the end Paul exhibits real psychic powers to a demigod like level. In some ways, it is more like Star Wars force powers.

 

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

In the end Paul exhibits real psychic powers to a demigod like level.

Does he? That wasn’t my reading of it. He has prescient visions, which clearly aren’t all correct as in one he was being chummy with the guy he kills at the end, and he’s quite good at fighting because he practiced with Josh Brolin. He has the Obi Wan speech power which he isn’t very good at and messes up.

I suspect it may be very different if you have a lot of Dune knowledge going in to next to none like me and his level of power is out of synch with the original work.

I think you and Jon are looking at things that are omitted or changed and I’m just taking it as a new movie I saw. Which isn’t to say either reading is right or wrong but the success of it will fall heavier on people like me I suspect. The books are a publishing success but it’ll still be most of the audience haven’t read them. The Lynch film wasn’t a commercial success and the TV version sank like a lead balloon, even on this nerd board it generated next to zero chatter.

I also found the religious elements interesting, again no idea how much was from Herbert but the worship scenes had them bending over to pray like a Muslim, while cradling beads like a Catholic, facing a wall like in Judaism and then applying a mark to the forehead like Hinduism. Add in some meditation I probably missed and you have an amalgam of the major Earth religions.

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Todd, lorcan_nagle

I mean in the Lynch DUNE movie. It’s a subtly different approach than this new one or even the series on Sci Fi channel.

in the current Dune, it is closer or even more grounded than the books. Prescience is implied because how could he know about Chani before he even came to the planet, but it is generally the ability to process and connect synchronous information much faster than normal human cognition.

Herbert combined several religious approaches. ZenSunni is one religion that strongly influenced various cultures and the Orange Catholic Bible implies a combination of Protestant and Roman beliefs.

the interesting element is that while there are many different worlds, there really isn’t mass migration between them for the mass of people. It is very feudal and Medieval as far as the experience for the majority of the universe.

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Todd

garjones wrote:

I think you and Jon are looking at things that are omitted or changed and I’m just taking it as a new movie I saw. Which isn’t to say either reading is right or wrong but the success of it will fall heavier on people like me I suspect. The books are a publishing success but it’ll still be most of the audience haven’t read them. The Lynch film wasn’t a commercial success and the TV version sank like a lead balloon, even on this nerd board it generated next to zero chatter.

Well sure, I said that much in my first post… it’s not that it’s a bad movie, obviously, it’s just that I was disappointed with it as a big Dune fan.

However this begs the question, since you’re a Dune noob:

What did you think about the character development in the movie? Did the Baron seem anything other than just a one dimensional evil character? Did the Doctor’s betrayal have any sort of emoitional impact? What sense did you get from Gurney Halleck or Thufir Hawat? Did you even get an understanding of what Thufir Hawat’s deal was?

For my money, the only ones who got any character development were the Duke, Paul, Duncan and Jessica (who they kind of mangled along the way compared to the book, but without comparing her to the book I guess she was alright-ish).

Also, did you get that whole “sci-fi GoT” vibe everyone always talks about?

What I’m getting at is that, yes, being a fan kind of taints my perspective, but there are things that one can judge despite it, which is narrative, plot, character development, etc… and in the end I felt the movie was lacking in those, regardless of my pre-existing knowledge… but maybe I’m wrong, or I’m exagerating… I dunno, it’s hard to tell.

As far as the GOT style, it worked hard to stay PG13. No full frontal nudity or sex and hardly any blood even though they were all fighting with swords. I mean one guy gets his head cut off by a steak knife and no arterial spray.

The design was gritty but they “did a man’s job, sir,” keeping the censors happy in that regard. Not easy with the Baron in the movie.

i did find the movie more enjoyable on second viewing though. It is a little unclear or unfocused at times but works for large sections

Anonymous wrote:

As far as the GOT style, it worked hard to stay PG13. No full frontal nudity or sex and hardly any blood even though they were all fighting with swords. I mean one guy gets his head cut off by a steak knife and no arterial spray. The design was gritty but they “did a man’s job, sir,” keeping the censors happy in that regard. Not easy with the Baron in the movie.

That’s not at all what I meant… I just meant GoT in terms of plot, with the political intrigue and the different houses, etc… a more slow paced story with interesting characters, etc… Dune was never about violence, gore or sex, so there’s no real reason to go outside of PG13.

In fact, I was a little bit surprised that Villeneuve chose to go with a rather Lynchian Baron Harkonnen, because he’s not even that ominous and “dark” or disgusting in the books… I mean, sure he’s fat and he’s ruthless, but he doesn’t even really fly like he does in either movie (although I agree it looks cooler), he barely uses his floating device as a walking assistant (’cause he’s super fat) or shower in disgusting baths or whatever else.

Heh, people make fun of the cat/mouse milking contraption in Lynch’s movie (and it’s silly, for sure) but Villeneuve also kinda has a similar thing with the spider-y creature that’s just there for no good reason (except showcasing the voice I guess)… although to be fair, I did appreciate the wink (or at least I think it is) to Lynch’s movie with the hazmat suits that kinda look like the Sardukar suits in that movie.

Jon wrote:

What did you think about the character development in the movie?

I touched on it in my review:

I fell short of loving it as the characterisation is a bit flat (although that can be common in sci-fi writers so not sure how much stems from the source – from what you are saying here that is the case with Paul) 

It’s definitely the weaker aspect of the film. Aside from Momoa’s Duncan most of the characters were quite functional. It’s a question I posed about the source because the main reason I don’t really read sci-fi, maybe moreso at the hard sci-fi end, is it can be very plot driven and the characters often chess pieces serving that plot. I love The Expanse but I think that’s its biggest weakness too, the leads are quite bland.

Todd blamed the cast but I’m really not sure how much they had to work with. Isaac is an excellent actor but if he’s handed a stoic character that shows little emotion then that’s what you get.

As to the GoT comparison yeah I mean the most obvious element is the ‘House [instert name]” stuff and clashing family dynasties. As with GoT that was almost certainly taken from history with the Wars of the Roses and houses Lancaster v York. I mean he could have nicked it off Dune but that’s what Martin said was the inspiration and that seems fair enough, it’s not an obscure piece of history, there are thousands of books about it because the plotting and politics make it interesting to read about.

garjones wrote:

Todd blamed the cast but I’m really not sure how much they had to work with. Isaac is an excellent actor but if he’s handed a stoic character that shows little emotion then that’s what you get.

I don’t blame any of the actors, tbh… I think they did their very best with what they got indeed, I blame the script a 100% on this one.

garjones wrote:

As to the GoT comparison yeah I mean the most obvious element is the ‘House [instert name]” stuff and clashing family dynasties. As with GoT that was almost certainly taken from history with the Wars of the Roses and houses Lancaster v York. I mean he could have nicked it off Dune but that’s what Martin said was the inspiration and that seems fair enough, it’s not an obscure piece of history, there are thousands of books about it because the plotting and politics make it interesting to read about.

But just the House XXX is kind of surface level, no? I mean, there’s obviously no real digging into the whole political intrigue in the movie… Ironically, I’m pretty sure Lynch’s version does a lot more with less time, albeit in a rather messy fashion perhaps.

I dunno, I guess it was bound to happen this way… the fact of the matter is: They should’ve gone with an HBO show… They want another GoT and they had this franchise, it should’ve been obvious, so I’m not sure what happened. Maybe Villeneuve REALLY pushed for it, but someone should’ve had their brains turned on for this one.

That said, a better script would’ve helped, the script really is the weakest element in an otherwise very well executed movie. This whole thing reminds me of Tenet in that same way.

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Todd

Jon wrote:

Heh, people make fun of the cat/mouse milking contraption in Lynch’s movie (and it’s silly, for sure) but Villeneuve also kinda has a similar thing with the spider-y creature that’s just there for no good reason (except showcasing the voice I guess)…

I thought the spider woman was supposed to be Yueh’s wife. When he tells the Duke that they take her apart like a doll, I immediately thought of the Baron’s “pet.” I makes more sense as the sort of thing they would use to break the doctor’s imperial conditioning. It would have to be horrible.

Jon wrote:

But just the House XXX is kind of surface level, no?

Sure it is, but I think that’s the part that screams out to the viewer “ooh that’s like Game of Thrones”.

There is the family factions scheming and betraying but as I said that’s something very common in history and literature, I don’t see a whole lot past that.

maybe Game of Thrones isn’t the right tv series for a comparison
https://youtu.be/cDKlToU4R_0

 

 

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Todd

Speaking of Lynch’s version, this popped up the other day on my youtube feed (I guess looking at reviews is to blame)… this is the revised fan edit that incorporates a lot of scenes from the various versions and extras too. Haven’t watched this particular one, but it’s probably similar to the one I watched some time ago.

Anyhow, Dune also has several cuts so I don’t necessarily know which one is the best, but this one is the most complete, for whomever is interested… plus it’s still somehow up in youtube, so you might as well while it’s there =P

Gar: You can watch this I guess, and stop at the same point the new movie does… which I think is about 2/3 in on this one or so… However there might be some spoilers from stuff that the new one doesn’t cover… I’m not sure

Edit: Shit, props to Zimmer and all, but the Toto score still gives me goosebumps.

Edit2: ahhh young Virginia Madsen…

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Rocket

1. Jon wrote:

   Gar: You can watch this I guess, and stop at the same point the new movie does… which I think is about 2/3 in on this one or so… However there might be some spoilers from stuff that the new one doesn’t cover… I’m not sure Edit: Shit, props to Zimmer and all, but the Toto score still gives me goosebumps. Edit2: ahhh young Virginia Madsen

   True. I like a lot of Lynch’s DUNE up until the last act. It is tied in with the first time I read the novels. Also I really liked the Marvel comics adaptation. Maybe even better than the movie it adapted.

At heart, I think it’s a mistake to take DUNE too seriously. It’s essentially one step beyond Flash Gordon and Lensman. It is more intellectual but only in the sense that Elric is slightly more intelligent than Conan. It still needs the bright flash of adventure to really breathe.

Right… so quick update on the 1984 version… I went back to check a little bit… DO NOT WATCH the official extended edition, that one is fucking garbage… if you wanna watch an extended version, watch the fan edit because the guy who did it took care of removing most of the dumb shit in the EE, while keeping all of the extra scenes and even color-correcting them in a few places. The official EE is a horrible mess.

That said, I kinda wish the fan edit would’ve done a bit of a better job in a couple of places, but eh… it is what it is… as it stands, the theatrical is probably still the best, but the fan edit does fill a lot of nice extra-scenes, without butchering the movie with the ham-fisted edits from the official EE… not surprising Lynch got his name removed from that abomination.

Revisiting the 1984 movie… damn, they did A LOT of great things… some that are even better than Villeneuve’s, like the entire designs for the Caladan section and the vast majority of the costumes (the Sardaukar soldiers look like shit) throughout the movie.

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Todd

Jon wrote:

Right… so quick update on the 1984 version… I went back to check a little bit… DO NOT WATCH the official extended edition, that one is fucking garbage… if you wanna watch an extended version, watch the fan edit because the guy who did it took care of removing most of the dumb shit in the EE, while keeping all of the extra scenes and even color-correcting them in a few places. The official EE is a horrible mess.

That said, I kinda wish the fan edit would’ve done a bit of a better job in a couple of places, but eh… it is what it is… as it stands, the theatrical is probably still the best, but the fan edit does fill a lot of nice extra-scenes, without butchering the movie with the ham-fisted edits from the official EE… not surprising Lynch got his name removed from that abomination.

Revisiting the 1984 movie… damn, they did A LOT of great things… some that are even better than Villeneuve’s, like the entire designs for the Caladan section and the vast majority of the costumes (the Sardaukar soldiers look like shit) throughout the movie.

What would say is the best fan edit? Is it on YouTube?

Todd wrote:

What would say is the best fan edit? Is it on YouTube?

Ye, it’s the one I posted above… it’s 480p though (for a reason, the extra scenes are super low quality). It’s not a perfect edit (I would’ve edited some parts differently), but it’s very seamless and has most of the extra scenes in the official EE without having the stupid narration and some of the shitty extra scenes they added into it. It also fixes some of the blue eye issues, and removes the rain bit at the end.

If you wanna watch the movie in high visual quality (or as much as possible, considering) you should watch the HD theatrical… but for an extended version, that Spicediver fan edit might be the best.

Jon wrote:

Todd wrote:

What would say is the best fan edit? Is it on YouTube?

Ye, it’s the one I posted above… it’s 480p though (for a reason, the extra scenes are super low quality). It’s not a perfect edit (I would’ve edited some parts differently), but it’s very seamless and has most of the extra scenes in the official EE without having the stupid narration and some of the shitty extra scenes they added into it. It also fixes some of the blue eye issues, and removes the rain bit at the end.

If you wanna watch the movie in high visual quality (or as much as possible, considering) you should watch the HD theatrical… but for an extended version, that Spicediver fan edit might be the best.

That video is blocked in the US.

Todd wrote:

That video is blocked in the US.

Oh bummer… maybe search a copy on youtube… it’s called Dune (1984) Alternative Edition Redux by spicediver… there are other videos that edit some stuff on top of it… but this one is a bit under 3 hours… you can also find it on torrent.

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Todd

Jon wrote:

Todd wrote:

That video is blocked in the US.

Oh bummer… maybe search a copy on youtube… it’s called Dune (1984) Alternative Edition Redux by spicediver… there are other videos that edit some stuff on top of it… but this one is a bit under 3 hours… you can also find it on torrent.

I found this:

That’s the one =)

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Todd

Todd wrote:

That’s a pretty good video and one of the few who are noticing the bad interpretation of Jessica… and good points about Gurney, but they complitely omited the much bigger role of Thufir.

Speaking of which, I’m not gonna spoil anything, but he’s supposed to have a much bigger role in the book, particularly in the 2nd half… and now I’m wondering if they’ll omit all of that, because they sure as fuck didn’t lay ANY goundwork for either Thufir or mentats in general, so it’d be a bit weird if they go into that whole thing all of a sudden in part 2.

Oh the shame… =(

Jon wrote:

Speaking of which, I’m not gonna spoil anything, but he’s supposed to have a much bigger role in the book, particularly in the 2nd half… and now I’m wondering if they’ll omit all of that, because they sure as fuck didn’t lay ANY goundwork for either Thufir or mentats in general, so it’d be a bit weird if they go into that whole thing all of a sudden in part 2.

True – nor did they make much of a thing about Suk Imperial training so Yueh’s betrayal is a bit more pedestrian in this. Even the Spacing Guild received no explanation at all in this so if you hadn’t read the book or seen the Lynch movie, then what do you know about them just from this film? It is an interesting point in that Jessica says to Stilgar she knows that the Fremen have ships, but I’m thinking… who’s navigating those ships? How would spice smuggling even work without the guild supporting it?

Honestly about half the cast of the novel hasn’t even appeared yet in the movie, and I mean significant main characters.

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Todd

Anonymous wrote:

True – nor did they make much of a thing about Suk Imperial training so Yueh’s betrayal is a bit more pedestrian in this. Even the Spacing Guild received no explanation at all in this so if you hadn’t read the book or seen the Lynch movie, then what do you know about them just from this film? It is an interesting point in that Jessica says to Stilgar she knows that the Fremen have ships, but I’m thinking… who’s navigating those ships? How would spice smuggling even work without the guild supporting it?

For sure… Although I can get why they skipped Yueh’s story, even though it completely robs the story of the emotion of his betrayal, because the Suk doctors are basically non-existant after the first book (and no wonder, clearly the Suk Imperial training failed =P).

In the same vein, the spacing guild is barely mentioned in the first book, so I can also understand them not going into all of that… yet… although the way they depicted the inter-galactic travel was very confusing and quick, I actually missed it… I was wrong that they didn’t do it, they did it, but in a very different and subtle way, and that was not exactly “space folding” per-se, it was more like a star-gate, which explains the design of the SG freighters… very weird choice, and I can’t say I agree with it… because again: I completely missed it in my first couple of viewings.

However, mentats, or rather mentat training is a HUUUUGE part of the entire series, from the 1st to the last book. So glossing over that is a little more important overall, specially if they go into the sequels, and that’s beyond the roles of Thufir and Piter in the first book, which are not insignificant by any means.

As to your point of spice smuggling, ehhh… the guild doesn’t give a shit about smuggling because they most likely also get their cut, and they’re only interested in the spice flowing. In fact, I’m sure they rely on smuggling a lot more than it’s mentioned in the books, specially during transitory periods like the one in the first book, and though I don’t remember if it’s mentioned or not, I’m sure spice smuggling is a much much bigger deal in the 2nd, 3rd and specially 4th book, when the spice is basically under Atreides control.

Smuggling isn’t given a lot of attention but it is crucial to one of the main character’s story and reappearance. I agree the guild must control the smuggling as well since it undercuts both the emperor’s and baron’s monopoly.

However, if the role of the guild was understood then the risk to Paul and Jessica in leaving Arrakis is increased. The movie is very narrow in its adaptation in that the larger world around them is not a part of the story.

Which is the ultimate shame of doing movies instead of a GOT-style show… a show would allow for exploring the larger and honestly quite rich world around Paul, which is by far one of the most interesting aspects of the book series, and though I suspect the second part will indeed touch on some of those aspects, like the way fremen economy works, the smuggling and the whole mentat thing (if you believe Villeneuve’s claim), there is simply too much world building throughout the books that can’t be explored even in a two-parter movie.

Fact is, people say “Dune can’t be adapted”, and that’s absolutely wrong, it most def can be adapted, it just needs a lot of time for it to be done justice, otherwise you end up with a hectic rushed version like the Lynch movie, or a movie that barely even scratches the surface of anything like this new one, and neither of those options are good, imo, although this new one is certainly a better movie.

But think about all the things they could explore at leisure in a show:

First of all, the whole background of the Buttlerian Jihad and the consequences that has in the larger context, which are all of the factions like the Bene Gesserit, the Guild, the Mentats, the Suk Doctors (to a lesser degree), IX, the Tleilaxu, etc… They could also explore MUCH better the dynamics between the houses and the emperor and the larger political landscape of that world, inculding the Landsraad and CHOAM, what they are and what they mean. They could aslo explore the different economy systems, both within the imperium and the juxtaposition with the fremen economy. And obviously they could also go into all of the details of the plot itself and the characters.

The richness of everything around Paul’s story is what makes Dune a “GOT-like” story, there’s a lot of stuff to be explored and expanded upon, even, and so yeah… it REALLY stings that they went with a movie and not a show because now was the perfect time to do it… Although I guess Legendary is partly to blame, probably, since they’re the ones who own the rights (I think).

Oh well… guess we’ll have to wait another 20 years… but it kinda fuckin sucks ’cause I’d like to see a good adaptation before I fuckin die… u_u

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Todd

Finally saw this tonight, before it leaves cinemas. I had mixed feelings on it – it looks great, the cast are fine (Momoa and Isaac bring some much needed charisma) and the sound/music is excellent – it was worth seeing it at the cinema just for that.

But as a movie I found it weirdly shapeless and episodic in structure, with no real sense of peaks and troughs or even a real climax at the end. And I didn’t really connect with the characters – usually Villeneuve is good at tying his spectacle to a strong emotional core, but I just didn’t feel that at all here.

Maybe it all plays differently if you’ve read the book, I don’t know.

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Dave wrote:

with no real sense of peaks and troughs or even a real climax

Personally, I found the climax be the resolution of the visions Paul had. As if they coalesced into one unequivocal truth at the moment they fought. I get that it might not work out for everyone but it really, really, worked for me.

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Dave

I guess there is that, but it’s a little low-key a climax for such a big movie.

To me the movie felt a little like the first few episodes of a Dune TV series strung together. There were definitely setups and payoffs, but smaller and more episodic in terms of the way the story moved forwards.

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I think if we get the planned trilogy, watching all three movies back-to-back-to-back might make for a more satisfying experience.

I’m not sure we’re getting a trilogy, tbh… unless it did amazingly well for HBOmax, the BO ain’t that amazing. Yet another reason why it should’ve been a show from the get go.

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Todd

Jon wrote:

I’m not sure we’re getting a trilogy

We aren’t. I heard Villeneuve interviewed on Kermode and Mayo last month, he always planned to split the novel into two movies. This was said before they got the green light for the second part.

garjones wrote:

Jon wrote:

I’m not sure we’re getting a trilogy

We aren’t. I heard Villeneuve interviewed on Kermode and Mayo last month, he always planned to split the novel into two movies. This was said before they got the green light for the second part.

I think Villeneuve has spoken of a possible trilogy that would see him adapt Dune Messiah as the third film.

So yes, a two-part adaptation of Dune as the first two films but then a third movie based on the second book.

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Todd

garjones wrote:

Jon wrote:

I’m not sure we’re getting a trilogy

We aren’t. I heard Villeneuve interviewed on Kermode and Mayo last month, he always planned to split the novel into two movies. This was said before they got the green light for the second part.

Apparently his intention is to adapt Dune Messiah as a single movie if Part 2 is a success. Which I am in favour of because it’s all about hammering home the whole “PAUL IS NOT A HERO YOU IDIOTS” part of the narrative.

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Todd, Uncle Retrospective

This is an interesting read.

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/making-of-dune-denis-villenueve-novel-adaptation-1235052084/

I loved it. Thought the casting and the designs were perfect adaptations, and that they did a very good job of keeping as much of the texture of that world while streamlining the plot somewhat. Visually it was absolutely stunning, and most importantly this movie just drew me in in a way that I haven’t been in a long time. That weird, slow rhythm the movie had made it very immersive for me, I just kind of fell into the movie. It felt more like an experience than like watching a movie. This obviously completely worked for me.

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Uncle Retrospective, Sean Robinson, lorcan_nagle, Dave

Christian said everything better than I could.
Just watched it last night (Blu-ray).

Negatives? Well, it’s my first time seeing Timothee and he was okay, I guess. Maybe I’ll appreciate him more on future rewatches.
And I preferred Lynch’s worms to these, although I didn’t hate them (friends of mine loath their depiction here).

I guess another negative is the fact we don’t have Part 2 for a while. Would be miles better to know it’s coming within 6 months.

I agree that a Dune TV show with a big budget and the right people involved could really be the ultimate way to go, and no reason to think movies negate this option. Success of a trilogy could only be a good thing for another version.

Looking forward to Part 2!

Sean Robinson wrote:

I agree that a Dune TV show with a big budget and the right people involved could really be the ultimate way to go, and no reason to think movies negate this option. Success of a trilogy could only be a good thing for another version.

That or more significant changes for the movie format. The general problem for me is that a movie is not a book. If I wanted the experience of the book, I’d read the book. The parts of the movie I liked most are those that departed strongly from the novel, honestly. It hinted at a more novel and original experience and the possibility of a different point of view from the novel’s.

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Todd, Sean Robinson