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Doctor Who: now discussing Empire of Death (with spoilers!)
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I just rewatched Gatwa’s scenes on iPlayer with the subtitles on and I think I misunderstood the bigeneration initially.
I thought it was like those worms that get split in two and become two distinct entities, with Tennant able to go off and regenerate into whoever/whatever else, separate from Gatwa’s Doctor.
But the bit about Gatwa being ok because Tenannt sorted himself out and doing “therapy in the wrong order” or whatever sounds more like Gatwa’s Doctor has split off and appeared earlier than cause and effect suggested but Tennant will still, eventually, die and become him, back at the point of bigeneration. Maybe? Kinda like the Lurker when Baker became Davison.
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It might just have been in comparison to Gatwa’s energy and charisma, but I liked how #14 looked so tired and haggard after the bigeneration. Like the colour and life had drained out of him. Nice visual cue.
My son and I were discussing the show afterwards over dinner. We both thought how awesome it would have been had the “second” Tardis had the interior of Tennant’s era. But, I guess that would have been impractical and expensive for a few seconds of screen time.
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So we’ve got Peter Parker Doctor off living the quiet life with a red-headed woman (and, uh, her husband) while Miles Morales Doctor zips off for more adventures? Marvelous.
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I like the new sonic design.
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Did anyone else twig that 14 and 15 split 14’s outfit between them when they bigenerated? 14’s barefoot and wearing an undershirt while 15 had shoes and socks and the shirt and tie (albiet undone)… and underwear…
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Did anyone else twig that 14 and 15 split 14’s outfit between them when they bigenerated? 14’s barefoot and wearing an undershirt while 15 had shoes and socks and the shirt and tie (albiet undone)… and underwear…
Yes, quite cleverly done. Handy 14 had an undershirt beneath his shirt.
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Did anyone else twig that 14 and 15 split 14’s outfit between them when they bigenerated? 14’s barefoot and wearing an undershirt while 15 had shoes and socks and the shirt and tie (albiet undone)… and underwear…
Yeah, I thought that was the point.
Any excuse to get Gatwa to run around in his pants!
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lorcan_nagle wrote: Did anyone else twig that 14 and 15 split 14’s outfit between them when they bigenerated? 14’s barefoot and wearing an undershirt while 15 had shoes and socks and the shirt and tie (albiet undone)… and underwear… Yeah, I thought that was the point. Any excuse to get Gatwa to run around in his pants!
Yes, and that means Tennant was going commando, right?
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lorcan_nagle wrote: Did anyone else twig that 14 and 15 split 14’s outfit between them when they bigenerated? 14’s barefoot and wearing an undershirt while 15 had shoes and socks and the shirt and tie (albiet undone)… and underwear… Yeah, I thought that was the point. Any excuse to get Gatwa to run around in his pants!
Yes, and that means Tennant was going commando, right?
That’s what I was wondering, how method did they go with the costuming
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I like the new sonic design.
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Labyrinth vibes.
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Really enjoyed that.
But May for the new series? Ugh.
S1 info here:
https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/doctor-who-returns-in-may-2024
Rose Noble and Mel will be back.
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I thought that was quite good fun and got better as it went along.
The start of the episode was a bit choppy and weirdly pedestrian, and stuff like the club scene felt a bit like it was trying a little too hard.
But once all the Labyrinth stuff got under way and then the second plot kicked in, it felt very much like Gatwa was comfortable in a perfectly fun romp.
I don’t think it will go down as a classic but Christmas episodes are always a bit frothy. I think this establishes the new Doctor and his companion nicely, along with a few fun teases for the future, and I’ll look forward to the new series next year.
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Yeah, I agree about the club scene – very much felt like it was there just for the trailers. But it doesn’t really matter because it’s quickly forgotten about. It wasn’t heavy on plot but again that’s fine because it’s about the new Doctor and new companion, both of whom I thought were great.
I spotted Rose (Noble) in the trailer afterwards, so I guess we’re not drawing a complete line under all that. There’s still mavity too.
Mrs Flood: gag for the audience or villain hiding in plain sight?
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It was alright. I found myself cringing at some of it – it was obviously trying too hard in places. But, there’s a nice energy there. Be interesting to see how that translates over to a more traditional Dr Who narrative, or if it will eschew from that for the time being.
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I enjoyed it, but more for Millie Gibson and Ncuti Gatwa’s performances than the story itself – Gibson especially stands out with an impressive array of expressions and physical acting. The story itself was fine, a typical RTD romp with a nice twist that feels like Moffat at his best when the Goblins go back in time.
And I think Mrs Flood is linked to the woman who left Ruby at the church, and possibly the hand that took the Toymaker’s tooth.
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RTD has set up a surprising number of mysteries to be resolved later, which wasn’t really a thing he did in his original run, outside of the vague “what does Bad Wolf mean?”.
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There’s still mavity too.
This got the biggest laugh of the episode from me. It’s a great running gag.
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it was obviously trying too hard in places
The song might as well have ended with an on-screen message begging youtubers to make trap remixes.
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Mrs Flood: gag for the audience or villain hiding in plain sight?
I assume it’s a tease to something more, especially given that it was presented as a post-credit scene type tag.
And I think Mrs Flood is linked to the woman who left Ruby at the church, and possibly the hand that took the Toymaker’s tooth.
Yeah, these were my first thoughts too. Making her the Master seems a bit obvious maybe, but she definitely seems to be someone who’s been watching over Ruby all her life.
Ruby already feels like a companion in the Clara mould, someone with a twisty backstory who’s going to end up super important to the overall arc. It’s interesting the way RTD seems to be reprising and remixing all the stuff that worked best from his and Moffat’s eras.
Although I do wonder whether going back to the woman who left Ruby at the church could risk undermining the symbolism of the Doctor’s decision not to go after her, which to me was all about the importance of found/chosen family even over and above blood relations. It does feel like a loose end that will eventually be addressed though.
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RTD has set up a surprising number of mysteries to be resolved later, which wasn’t really a thing he did in his original run, outside of the vague “what does Bad Wolf mean?”.
Again I think this is the Moffat influence. People seemed to engage with his season arcs which were always pretty clearly signposted from the beginning of each series.
RTD’s tended to be more subtle, with things like Bad Wolf or the occasional mentions of the bees/planets disappearing in the final Tennant/10 series.
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Mrs Flood: gag for the audience or villain hiding in plain sight?
I assume it’s a tease to something more, especially given that it was presented as a post-credit scene type tag.
And I think Mrs Flood is linked to the woman who left Ruby at the church, and possibly the hand that took the Toymaker’s tooth.
Yeah, these were my first thoughts too. Making her the Master seems a bit obvious maybe, but she definitely seems to be someone who’s been watching over Ruby all her life.
Ruby already feels like a companion in the Clara mould, someone with a twisty backstory who’s going to end up super important to the overall arc. It’s interesting the way RTD seems to be reprising and remixing all the stuff that worked best from his and Moffat’s eras.
Although I do wonder whether going back to the woman who left Ruby at the church could risk undermining the symbolism of the Doctor’s decision not to go after her, which to me was all about the importance of found/chosen family even over and above blood relations. It does feel like a loose end that will eventually be addressed though.
My immediate thought for Mrs Flood was the Rani. But she could be the person Beep the Meep mentioned and/or the person the Toymaker mentioned.
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Nobody fixed the damn ceiling!
You know at some point someone, perhaps Anita Dobson next door, is going to say gravity instead of mavity and set off all sorts of alarm bells.
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I hadn’t heard about this: https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-sea-devils-spin-off-newsupdate/
As we enter a new era of Doctor Who, we know that some spin-offs are on their way – and a new report on Production List suggests that one of them will begin production very soon.
An entry on the website suggests that a spin-off, titled The War Between the Land and the Sea, will start shooting on 4th March 2024.
The series is specifically listed as a Doctor Who spin-off and the entry states it will feature the Sea Devils. The iconic monsters first appeared in the show in the 1972 Jon Pertwee story The Sea Devils and, more recently, they returned in the 2022 Jodie Whittaker special Legend of the Sea Devils.
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A bold choice given Legend of the Sea Devils seems to have been one of the most poorly received episodes in recent years (and that’s saying something for Chibnall’s run). You’d think that would have salted the earth for them.
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Millie Gibson will be leaving the show after one season, with Andor’s Varada Sethu as the next companion in S15: https://tvline.com/casting-news/millie-gibson-leaving-doctor-who-season-15-varada-sethu-1235137056/
I suppose a problem with filming a show over a year in advance is that people will notice that one of the leads is no longer on set.
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That’s a bit surprising really. Felt like they were gearing up for her being there long term.
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I honestly think this is a bit of a non story and just seems bad because they’re so far ahead in filming. We still have a whole series with her and most of the reports said she’ll be in series 15 until at least the fourth episode.
If people are freaking out over this, it’ll be fun when we find out Ncuti is leaving and who’s replacing him over a year before it happens on screen.
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I got the season 26 blu-ray for my birthday the other week. It’s interesting how it compensates for only having four stories by throwing in multiple versions of each one. Three cuts of Battlefield, two of Ghost Light, three of Curse of Fenric.
Unfortunately, season 26 isn’t as good as its predecessor. The ambition is laudable, but most of the stories are flawed. Battlefield spends a heck of a lot of time doing not a lot (which even Aaronovich owns up to, saying it was expanded from three to four episodes and he didn’t properly restructure it). Ghost Light meanwhile is three episodes but really needs to be four. And then Curse of Fenric is just a mess really. I’ve never understood why it’s so highly rated. The actresses playing the East End evacuees are awful (not that they have good material), the plot bounces around madly without rhythm or purpose, there’s dreadful dialogue (Ace’s speech luring the guard away is pretentious nonsense, all that purple nonsense about going in the water), the creature pulled from the future is a weird over-complication to an already complex story and there’s that really stupid moment where Kathleen pulls an 8×10 glossy of her baby out of her coat to give to Ace as she flees.
The Behind The Sofa features are a disappointment too. They feature Sylvester McCoy with Sophie Aldred, who are solid; Anneke Wills, Sarah Sutton and Janet Fielding all clucking about not liking the title sequence and misunderstanding the plots (which is understandable, but still); Pete McTighe mansplaining every episode to Joy Wilkinson again. They’re just a real drag mostly.
And particularly weird and annoying is that the sound mixes on all of the stories, both the surround and stereo ones, have absolutely buried the dialogue. I’ve been having to watch with subtitles on. Even tinkered with the equaliser on my TV to try and remedy it a bit, but there’s still loads of lines just completely lost under the score. I wonder if it’s because Mark Ayres (the sound remastering guy for the range, but also one of the composers on this season) has access to all the original material so was able to mess around more than with earlier stories and has “improved” them. But it isn’t a problem I remember from the DVD releases.
I’ve still got Survival to go and loads of other special features, so hopefully they’ll be an improvement.
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Moffat returning to write this year’s Christmas special?
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-steven-moffat-2024-christmas-newsupdate/
Great news if true.
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Yeah, I’m all for it. I’d have been happy with RTD doing episodes in Moffat’s run (after a couple of years) too. My only question would be can he shift back to doing episodes that aren’t driving the big narrative of the whole show?
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I think he’ll probably feel freed from the wider showrunning responsibilities to some extent. His best stories have always been the standalone episodes that don’t have to shoulder that additional burden of a series arc.
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This is going to piss people off.
Same time. Everywhere. 💫
Get ready for the global premiere of #DoctorWho on @BBCiPlayer in the UK 11th May and @DisneyPlus 10th May where available. pic.twitter.com/dFHh0BKCgO
— Doctor Who (@bbcdoctorwho) March 15, 2024
Looks like they’re prioritising a US drop at around 7pm east on the Friday which means it’ll hit BBC iplayer around midnight on Friday night/Saturday morning, with a BBC One broadcast to follow on Saturday evening.
So if you’re in the UK and want to watch it as it goes out, better stay up until midnight I guess! Otherwise you’re basically getting it a day after the US.
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So that’s “Same time everywhere, except Ireland, where you can’t watch it on Disney+ OR iPlayer.“
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Also, I’m just realising how weird it is for the BBC to do a double bill of new episodes for one of its own shows, let alone a prime time one. It’s usually only something they do for late night US imports. And why burn off two episodes when it’s only an eight episode run? Disney definitely seems to be in the driving seat here.
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Another question: The streaming premiere is two episodes. Are those both showing on BBC One at 7PM on May 11th? Because that’s Eurovision night.
Will the broadcast versions be a week behind?
The only possible explanation is that episode two is a Eurovision crossover that leads straight into that night’s contest.
No wonder there was so much singing in the Christmas special.
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The Doctor Who social media team: pic.twitter.com/hgRJFqugWN
— Jack Yeo (@jackryeo) March 15, 2024
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I’m feeling really dense here. I can’t work out who the people I’ve ringed on this cover are meant to be. Well, bottom left maybe Donna. But the guy… not a clue. -
Is it Ace?
I haven’t read it but it looks pretty good, yeah.
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I read Forgotten Lives last week. Not expecting much, but hoping it might be fun, or at least the Lance Parkin story would be interesting.
And I really enjoyed it. I have to admit, i couldn’t help but read many of the doctors as Pertwees, but that might be a me problem. Some of the stories were slight, but some were fascinating. All were fun and were heads above most Dr Who short story collections.
Gauntlet of Absolution was a fine fine read and Parkin’s Past Lives was of course very good
I’m looking forward to reading vols 2 and 3, though a fear it could be a struggle lining up each doctor from the previous story.
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Is it Ace?
Oh! Yeah, that’s it. I was thinking it was a guy. The likeness isn’t quite on the same level as the others.
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Is it Ace?
I haven’t read it but it looks pretty good, yeah.
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I read The Silent Stars Go By by Dan Abnett last week and that was really good. It’s got shades of Abnett’s 40k writing in it, in terms of world-building future sci-fi stuff but feels like an episode (or two-parter) of the modern TV series (compared to older Who novels that have much wider stories). Abnett’s really good at capturing the voice of 11th Doctor and Amy and also Rory. There’s some really clever plotting too.
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Millie Gibson is in fact, not leaving the show, apparently
https://www.avclub.com/doctor-who-varada-sethu-new-ncuti-gatwa-companion-1851407576
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Oh, the trolls are gonna have a field day with this.
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He’s not wrong though, the level of additional scrutiny any minority-helmed produciton gets is incredibly gross. The whole “we don’t have a problem with black/LGBT stories, we just want great ones” is such a bullshit line, given how many mediocre shows and movies starring or by cishet or white people magically get a pass.
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He’s not wrong though, the level of additional scrutiny any minority-helmed produciton gets is incredibly gross. The whole “we don’t have a problem with black/LGBT stories, we just want great ones” is such a bullshit line, given how many mediocre shows and movies starring or by cishet or white people magically get a pass.
There’s a great article on David Harewood in the Guardian that covers similar ground.
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Watched episode 1 and thought it was a bit flat, although very much in the vein of previous RTD openers – cutesy, light, silly and mostly about introducing the status quo for new viewers.
(I did find the opening 10-minute Wikipedia-entry on Doctor Who a bit much in this regard – stuff like The Eleventh Hour managed it a lot more organically.)
Mostly though it was quite a fun if straightforward and forgettable standard Doctor Who adventure. Gatwa is good and very likeable but hasn’t really been given a chance to explore the depths of the Doctor yet, so hopefully he gets some richer material on that front soon.
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Episode 1 definitely felt like they wanted to hit all the introductory stuff from the Eccleston/Piper series and get them out of the way, up to and including a “we’re not doing Father’s Day again” moment. The story itself was very typical RTD problem in space type story, with a nice bit of social commentary in there around the abandoment of the station. Not bad, but very average.
Episode 2 was more fun, and most of that was down to Jinkx Monsoon, who was fantastic as Maestro. It was a big panto episode and moved with a lot of energy. The dance number was a bit indulgent but was enjoyable and fit the idiom of the episode, and I loved how the episode played with music, mixing the synthesis and diegesis – and the Doctor even made a joke about it!
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Right, managed to squeeze these in between the Berlin e-prix and its quali, social engagements and Eurovision.
Space Babies. Sigh. Initially, my impression was “well this is just a less restrained and elegant redux of Rose and End Of The World. Then the talking babies turned up. Very much not my cup of tea. Davies managed to pull it back a bit with some of the social commentary, but I found the emotionally connecting with the plight of the snot monster and deciding to save it a bridge too far.
The Devil’s Chord. Really not what I was expecting from a visit to the Beatles. Erm… not sure how I feel about it. Didn’t help that I was watching it on a TV with bad sound set-up, so the music was BLARING and the dialogue lost (moreso than the Murray Gold standard), but I don’t know. It underlines for me that since Wild Blue Yonder (still the best RTD2 episode), this has very much become a different show, not a science-fiction show, but a general weird fiction show. It kinda reminds me of when the New Adventures or the 8DA would go off and do a themed arc rather than just do Dr Who stories. Which isn’t necessarily a criticism. But it makes me think back to the suggestion that the bigeneration was done to leave Tennant there as a fallback for if the Disney partnership went tits up somehow. If this excursion into fantasy elements doesn’t work out, they can just retreat back to a “proper” Doctor and go back to SF.
I really don’t know what I think of this episode, tbh. Did I enjoy it? A bit. Would I say it’s good? I don’t know. I did like the non-diegetic music joke though.
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I liked the second episode a lot better. I’m very much in favour of the show taking big swings like this, and even if it maybe overegged things with the big musical number at the end, the main story was really good – an interesting core concept (which touched on some pretty moving ideas about the importance of creativity), a fun over-the-top villain, and some nice little moments along the way (like the Doctor fighting with silence – the definition of peaceful protest).
I’m also glad that all the Beatles stuff was fairly minimal and not a huge focus of the episode, as putting the spotlight on them any more than they did already might have felt a bit gimmicky.
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Also, they’re definitely doing something with Susan this season, right? That was more than just a throwaway continuity treat for the fans.
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Also, they’re definitely doing something with Susan this season, right? That was more than just a throwaway continuity treat for the fans.
It’s hard to tell any more. We’re a world away from taking two years to even say Gallifrey. It feels more confident in just making random continuity references, even down to Mel becoming a recurring character. I mean, Mel!
Kudos to RTD to full engaging with the Doctor being adopted stuff. I’d have just junked it with an off-hand dismissal or ignored it outright, but he seems determined to make something out of it.
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Didn’t love Space babies. It was all a bit silly, the ending trying to make me care about the snot monster didn’t land and i just found the babies voices to be quite grating.
The Devils Chord started well, I liked the setup and the villain. But the mystery of Ruby is being sold a bit to hard, it feels like Clara 2.0. And I hope the Pantheon don’t just show up and battle the Doctor in some silly game all the time. This was way too repetitive of the 60th special with the game of catch.
So a mixed bag, but I’m interested to see if we see Susan, what’s up with the Tardis and why have two references to the Time Lord genocide?🤷♂️.
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The genocide of the Time Lords is just the Master killing off everyone and turning them into Cybermen, right?
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The genocide of the Time Lords is just the Master killing off everyone and turning them into Cybermen, right?
For the time being, yes.
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I saw an interesting idea floated on Twitter, which I don’t necessarily think is correct but is interesting (the idea, not Twitter): the Doctor is in the land of fiction and has been since some point in the 60th. It explains the Toymaker’s god-like powers (which previously had only in his own domain); the increase of fantasy elements, like the goblins and the Maestro; the breaking of the fourth wall by both the Doctor and Ruby’s neighbour; the non-diegetic music gag; the snow. As I say, I don’t think this is going to turn out to be on the money – I think this is just how RTD wants to the show to be now and there’s nothing to be gained from over-interpreting it (as I found with the regenerating clothes for 13-14), but it’s an interesting idea.
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Tonight’s/tomorrow’s episode is by Moffat. I don’t know anything about it beyond that it’s called Boom but it’ll be fun to see if he can go back to being the best freelancer in the writing pool under RTD.
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I assume it’s a prequel to Boom Town.
And then in the third one Bob Geldof can show up.
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It’s a rat trap
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I thought Boom was superb, the best episode of Doctor Who in years. It somehow manages to take what is a single-location story with minimal guest cast and create one of the most tense, thrilling, emotional Who stories in a long time, giving Gatwa his first great material as well as touching on all manner of themes – war, capitalism, faith, love – with a light touch but a heavy heart. Moffat is brilliant and somehow makes this look easy.
My only complaint is that every other episode of the season is probably going to pale in comparison. At least we’ve got Moffat back for Christmas though, that will be one to look forward to.
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Yeah, that was properly good. Moffat picking up on some of his old ideas but not the ones driven into the ground already and fusing them into a taut little story. I can’t think of another Who story that’s been so insular. You could probably do it as a one act stage play.
Bitingly satirical too in a way that Moffat rarely is.5 users thanked author for this post.
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I loved this one as well. It definitely felt like Moffat taking the kid gloves off in terms of biting social commentary, but I also think there’s an element of changes to society being reflected in the show – more overt criticism of capitalism as compared to, say Oxygen, and a far harsher and grittier portrayal of the religious soldiers as opposed to Time of the Angels. There’s more paranoia, the rigid lines of heirarchy are starker. Some of that is due to how they’re used in their respective episodes but it immediately jumped out at me that he recycled that idea here.
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The whole thing had a bit of a 2000AD Future Shock vibe to it for me, in the aesthetic and the setting and the twist towards the end. A proper little sci-fi parable with a sting in the tale.
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Boom certainly lands with a bang and is excellent.
Starts off with the creepiest ambulance you’ll ever see, with a sharp script to match, “thoughts and prayers”.
Then it starts off proper, with the Doctor on the mine and another perfect one-liner: “Oh, honey, I’m a much bigger bang than you bargained for.”
And that leads onto so many more pitch perfect observations on how the Villengard algorithm works, which is diabolically perfect.
So damn good.
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Starts off with the creepiest ambulance you’ll ever see
Which also reminded me a little of this:
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The other nice element is that the whole Villengard corporation is a problem Doctor has already solved, just in his past/the future. It’s the place/company that made Jack’s sonic blaster that the Doctor destroyed and planted bananas in.
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I thought 73 Yards was OK, a bit like an attempt to do a Turn Left but without all the old continuity references – but like most Doctor-lite episodes it ended up feeling like it was missing something.
I thought the first half was really good, proper creepy but also with some great laughs – the pub scenes especially and the puncturing of lazy Welsh stereotypes.
But from the midpoint it felt a bit like it was being made up as it went along, and crucially there wasn’t enough of an explanation (or even a resolution that was satisfying on an emotional level) to justify the investment in what you’d just spent 40 minutes watching – it didn’t even really try to answer any of the questions that the viewer was encouraged to ask about what was going on. So for me it fell down on that level.
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Yeah, I liked a lot of it and a lot of the story beats, but as soon as the timeskips started it was obvious there’d be a reset at the end – I was kinda expecting a semi-remake of Father’s Day with them trapped in the pub rather than Turn Left, but here we are. Having her save the world from Welsh Oswald Mosely but that wasn’t what saved her was a nice touch even though it removed a lot of her agency in the story itself. And I did suspect early on that the woman was an older version of Ruby and promptly forgot about it until the very end and was like “I knew it!”
On an overarching plot front, I’m coming around to the idea that they’ve been in a fictional universe for some time. We had Anita Dobson addressing the audience as much as Ruby with “having a nice time?” and Kate talking about how there’s more supernatural stuff happening and that’s the way things are going. And the ongoing cameos of Susan Twist, the best-named actor in history.
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Oh, and I was looking some stuff up about the episode right now and only just twigged that Mundy, the female soldier in Boom was played by Varada Sethu, who’s the new companion next year – but the character she’ll be playing as a regular is a different person “linked” to Mundy.
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Yeah, I liked a lot of it and a lot of the story beats, but as soon as the timeskips started it was obvious there’d be a reset at the end
Yeah, Kate even says something about a self-contained timeline when she shows up (which was a nice sudden surprise, and addresses the “Why don’t they call UNIT?” type questions that often come up around these types of stories.)
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Yeah that was a frustrating one. Started off well with a nice creepy atmosphere but I zoned out a bit when it became obvious everything we were seeing was going to be undone by the end.
What was future Ruby saying to make everyone scared?, what was with the weird hand gestures from future Ruby?, why 73 yards? so has Albion not actually been stopped then since this never happened? and why was it even happening at all?!?🤷♂️… It feels like RTD thought “oh, that was Ruby all along” is the only explanation needed, but for me it just brings up more questions. I don’t need everything spoon fed to me, but there’s a fine line between being mysterious and just not bothering to answer questions because you don’t actually have the answers.
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Well put. The concluding stretch is just far too vague to provide any kind of explanation of anything that happened in the episode, and also doesn’t really give us a strong sense of whether the efforts of alternate-timeline-Ruby have actually achieved anything at all.
Ideas that felt like they were building up to something, and inviting us to wonder what the explanation for them might be, then aren’t explained at all.
All very unsatisfying.
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