"Deconstruction" in media

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#5756

I didn’t know where to put this thread, therefore I wrote “in media” in general, even though this applies mostly to CBs, but I suppose a lot of CB adaptations as well… so whatever… anyways:
 
So here’s a question I’ve been having for a while, because sometimes it seems people love throwing the term “deconstruction” around as a reason/excuse and I’m not sure they even know what it means, and hell, I’m not even sure what it means… so this is simple…
 
1) What do you think “deconstruction” means, and let’s stay within the context of CBs and CB movies/TV shows so as to not get to strictly philosophical.
 
and 2) What’s the best exemple of it you would give to someone, be it a CB or a movie/TV show, and why? Why is that a good exemple of deconstruction?
 
Ideally, let’s all try to not say “Watchmen”… whoever replies first gets to use it though… =P

Viewing 24 replies - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
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  • #5765

    so this is simple…

    No, it isn’t. It really isn’t, but since you opened the trapdoor…

  • #5767

    Well I meant my questions were simple… I’m sure the answers won’t be… =P

  • #5768

    Oh shit…

  • #5770

    French cinema certainly had a strong wave of deconstructionist films like BREATHLESS that was sort of a crime noir film that broke all the rules of noir. It shot everything incorrectly, edited it in the wrong ways and didn’t tell the story properly. But doing everything “the wrong way” worked because the template existed for it to break. CHINATOWN, for example, only broke one rule – it let the killer get away with it. Otherwise, it was very similar to the many noir films from the 40’s to the 60’s. Even the sexual taboo wasn’t too far out there compared to A TOUCH OF EVIL or PSYCHO or the murder mysteries and detective novels Jim Thompson wrote. In fact, CHINATOWN was such a throwback that many audiences didn’t really get it as that type of straightforward moviemaking was out of style.

    With KUBRICK, was DR STRANGELOVE a deconstruction of the Cold War drama? It came out before FAILSAFE which was a classic version of what STRANGELOVE tore apart. Was 2001 a deconstruction of the science fiction adventure? Compared to FORBIDDEN PLANET, it was, but was that what was intended? Was THE SHINING a deconstruction of the horror novel and was FULL METAL JACKET a deconstruction of the war movie?

    I think they were but extended outside cinematic terms. Instead, the real destruction was against cultural assumptions that people carry into the movies. For example, there were plenty of novels and films based on those novels that were about the downfall of the “rogue” either set in period England or actually written in the period. However, in BARRY LYNDON, the events on screen actually play against the voice-over narrative telling us how to feel about the story. Lyndon is not merely the self-interested rogue immorally striving to move up in the world by any means necessary. There is a lot of ambiguity to his motivations and he’s often the victim of circumstances rather than committing crimes and sinning for the sake of it.

    In Westerns, I suppose BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID is the best example of a film that plays entirely against the basic structure of a Western from any time before it. However, it kind of has become a model for a lot of westerns that came after.

    In the end though, deconstruction more or less is a dead end which is why most of those movies all came out in the 60’s and early 70’s. Is JOKER a deconstruction of anything specific?

  • #5775

    I think in fiction the term is mostly used to refer to works that use the conventions of the genre to subvert expectations or that are a bit “meta”. But everything can be deconstructed. I’m not sure of all the philosophical details but I get the impression it’s a trick to question assumptions about the meaning a work of fiction may have. A bit like Lebowski saying “yeah well that’s just like your opinion man.”

  • #5778

    It’s when you deconstruct something.

    It’s the practice of deconstructing.

    De-con-struct-ion.

    :scratch:

  • #5780

    I think in fiction the term is mostly used to refer to works that use the conventions of the genre to subvert expectations or that are a bit “meta”.

     
    But that’s the thing though, a subversion is not the same as a deconstruction (as far as I know at least). Speaking of subversion, that’s another buzz word everyone uses nilly willy these days… =/
     

    I think they were but extended outside cinematic terms. Instead, the real destruction was against cultural assumptions that people carry into the movies. For example, there were plenty of novels and films based on those novels that were about the downfall of the “rogue” either set in period England or actually written in the period. However, in BARRY LYNDON, the events on screen actually play against the voice-over narrative telling us how to feel about the story. Lyndon is not merely the self-interested rogue immorally striving to move up in the world by any means necessary. There is a lot of ambiguity to his motivations and he’s often the victim of circumstances rather than committing crimes and sinning for the sake of it.

     
    But again, that sounds more like a subversion than a deconstruction…
      

    In Westerns, I suppose BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID is the best example of a film that plays entirely against the basic structure of a Western from any time before it.

     
    That’s the question though, is a deconstruction merely a matter of “playing against tropes”? or is it something different?
     
    For exemple, as I mentoned, Watchmen is widely described as a desconstruction of superhero comicbooks, and sure enough, I suppose it does deconstruct the genre by taking it appart and examining the hows and whys in a lot more depth than most stories up to that point.
     
    By the same token, I guess Man of Steel is also a deconstruction of the Superman character because that movie focuses a lot more on the hows and whys of the character’s mythos, unlike the old Donner flicks and even Superman Returns, in which we see a fully formed character and there’s no questioning or exploration of the motivations behind it all… he’s just a superhero and that’s what he does, no questions asked.
     
    So, I suppose, for me a “decostruction” is more of an in-depth exploration of something, instead of just playing against type. Does that sound right? or am I off?

  • #5782

    Subversion can be a deconstruction.

    Imagine a house. You open the front door and there is a ten foot drop instead of a floor. Or you open the front door and there is a bathroom inside instead of a foyer. Bunuel would use tricks like these. Everyone would get together for dinner and there would be toilets around the table. They all carry on conversing while emptying their bowels and bladders. Then a child whispers something to her mother who nods her head. The girl goes to the bathroom where she makes a peanut butter sandwich and eats it in privacy. It is an absurd presentation but it makes you ask why is one biological function considered social while the other end of it is taboo?

    Now imagine a house. You go inside, but the homeowner gradually takes the house apart just as you start to get comfortable. He moves the furniture out just as you start to use it. Shuts off the water and finally starts knocking holes in the wall. Eventually you stop thinking of it as a house and realize it’s just a bunch of wooden boxes barely hanging together. So why do we say we live in a house and not we live in a box? That’s deconstruction. It doesn’t destroy or negate the genre or idea, but gives you a position outside its original, and often unconscious, effect on you in which to view the elements and inherent expectations of the idea.

  • #5790

    I tend to think of ‘deconstruction’ as examining the traditional constituent parts of something and holding them up to scrutiny, and making that examination a central part of the story being told.

    Sometimes this can be quite general, like Watchmen’s deconstruction of the superhero genre as a whole; sometimes it can be quite specific like Dark Knight Returns deconstructing Batman comics.

    Usually with the best deconstructions I think there is an element of reconstruction at the end. Grant Morrison’s Batman run wad a good example of this – breaking down the character and everything that has accumulated around him over the years, examining it, keeping the positive and worthwhile stuff and getting rid of the stuff that is not needed, with the aim of producing a better version.

  • #5792

    Usually with the best deconstructions I think there is an element of reconstruction at the end … examining it, keeping the positive and worthwhile stuff and getting rid of the stuff that is not needed,

    Sidebar – The “Deconstructionist” is a really creepy Serial Killer concept.

  • #5801

    I honestly don’t really see how DKR is a deconstruction for exemple. I dunno, maybe I’d need to read it again, but I don’t remember as such… it IS a grittier more grown-up version of Batman for sure, but it’s very Miller-esque, and Miller doesn’t really do much deconstructing, tbh (although maybe he did in his DD run, I haven’t read it, but anything post DKR is kind of his zany-vision more than an exploration of anything).

  • #5807

    Deconstruction is about exposing the things we feel comfortable with and have taken for granted, and then forcing us to question whether they are what we enjoy about the character/premise in the first place.

    Thats DKR to a tee.

  • #5808

    The main thing I’m getting from this thread is that Johnny should never run an AirBnB business.

  • #5809

    A good deconstruction piece of media is essentially a young child going “but why?” at every element of the production, especially the conventions that are taken for granted.

    The Unforgiven is pretty good at the for Westerns, especially as you’ve got Eastwood doing it, tearing down even his own Revisionist Westerns like Josey Wales.

  • #5814

    Or THE WILD BUNCH.

  • #5827

    My wife went to a restaurant once that served “deconstructed” French Onion soup. Basically onion soup with a slice of cheese and a chunk of bread.
    .
    True story.

  • #5839

    It’s become kind of a popular culture term, even though there’s a lot of philosophy behind the concept originally, the way Derrida conceived of it. If you leave out the philosophical context it probably becomes something different.

    I’m not sure the philosophy is worth getting into though, Derrida is a notorious blowhard and many critics allege it is basically nonsense. Or a truism dressed up in a lot of gobbledigook.

  • #5848

    Yeah, that’s why I suggested it might be best if we left the philosophical aspect out… I’m kind of wondering about it (and subversion too, though that’s MUCH easier to define and “understand”) because it seems the kind of word everyone throws around to justify stuff… or maybe to sound smarter… I don’t know… :unsure:

  • #6364

    Well, I think Dave and you described it pretty well between the two of you. I mean, if you take this –

    For exemple, as I mentoned, Watchmen is widely described as a desconstruction of superhero comicbooks, and sure enough, I suppose it does deconstruct the genre by taking it appart and examining the hows and whys in a lot more depth than most stories up to that point.

    – and take it just a little bit further, you’re where I would put the term when it comes to using it when talking about popular storytelling. Watchmen didn’t just subvert expectations to make the story more effective, to surprise the reader and hit home harder (all of which is fine as literary techniques, but it’s not deconstruction). It took the genre traits and convention apart in order to show their absurdity. Watchmen’s deconstruction of superheroes made it pretty much impossible to just go back to the status quo, and it changed the way people saw superheroes and superhero comics. And for many readers, it did make it hard to see the point in reading the other, traditional kind of superhero stories anymore.

  • #6370

    Yeah, it seems it’s got more to do with doing a deep dive on something, rather than just surprising or subverting or whatnot. I guess it’s like breaking something appart, in a non-destructive manner, to see what’s inside and how it works and why… :unsure:
     
    Although, thinking about it, couldn’t we say that Stan & Jack’s Marvel were the first true deconstructionist approach to SH? I mean, the Marvel-type of SH is in a lot of ways a deconstruction of the more mythical DC-type of SHs…

  • #6371

    I definitely think you could characterise the early Marvel comics in that way. They took the genre as it existed at that time, took it apart and examined its conventions, subverted some of them and added a depth that hadn’t been seen in superhero comics up to that point.

    Then, after years of new clutter gathering and new conventions being established, Watchmen deconstructed it again.

    You can then look at more modern books like Gillen’s Peter Cannon: Thunderbolt as deconstructing the superhero genre as it has calcified in the wake of Watchmen, thirty years on.

  • #6377

    Although, thinking about it, couldn’t we say that Stan & Jack’s Marvel were the first true deconstructionist approach to SH? I mean, the Marvel-type of SH is in a lot of ways a deconstruction of the more mythical DC-type of SHs…

    Yeah, like Dave says, I think you can at least to some extent look at it that way. The one caveat I’d have is that the early Marvel comics were probably more interesting in establishing something new, in taking some steps into a different direction, than analysing and taking apart what had gone before. They were more interesting in their own, new subjects than in deconstructing the ones that had gone before.

  • #6382

    I always like the way Alan Moore described it as Stan Lee having the revolutionary idea to take these previously one-dimensional characters and make them two-dimensional. :rose:

  • #6479

    “He’s not just a superhero, he’s a superhero that’s got a bad leg” :D

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